Judge declares Pledge unconstitutional - Page 4

Be careful what you wish for - remember Bush got VOTED in.

No, actually it isn't. The equivalent to what you are saying would be to remove "under God" in favor of the phrase "without any god". Then it would be forcing athiesm down peoples throats. As it is, removing "under God" would just make the pledge religion-neutral.

All the things Bumpy said were things I was thinking. It seems to me, that the people who are most vocally upset by the idea of taking out "under God" are Christian or are ambivalent . . . and it makes sense that those folks wouldn't be upset by the presence of the phrase in the pledge. So, to restate what Bumpy's post said, what if the pledge said "under Satan" or "under the Goddess" . . . wouldn't those Christians on the board be a bit leary of having their kids led by their teacher to recite that? If that's true, then put yourself in the shoes of the folks who believe in the Goddess, or believe in multiple deities, or believe that there is no deity at all and their kids are reciting "under God". Despite that some have said that this can be interpreted to encompass many different gods, that isn't quite true. The word God, capitalized, refers to the Judeo-Christian God, not to any other. Any I'm sure that most of us know that about the pledge. So, I can see the point. Remove "under God"; return the pledge to it's original state.

Chkblv can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe chkblv is a Bush supporter and thus got exactly what was wished! But seriously, for those who want to "vote on it", part of the purpose of the courts is to prevent the tyranny of the majority over the minority. If it weren't for the courts, the majority in many places would have continued the segregation of schools, and many other injustices. Just because the majority supports something, doesn't automatically mean there's nothing wrong with it, or that it doesn't hurt anyone.

Ugh, don't remind me!
After the election, my husband and I wanted to make Tshirts that said: I voted for Kerry and all I got was this lousy T-shirt!

Gradual Downward Spiral:
First a clarification, it is teacher/staff led prayer at a Public School which is not allowed but prayer during the students own free time is allowed. It is something which some people including some schools, misunderstand as seen in the cases brought by ACLU to support the right of the students.

School prayer was taken out in 1962-63, let us examine the situation from Independence to 1962 (Pre 62) and the Present Day (2005). Some Facts:

Slavery:
Pre 62
Slavery was widely accepted by many in the early days of the nation.
2005
Slavery is outlawed and rejected by most save a few religious groups.

Vote:
Pre 62
Women and Non-whites are not allowed to vote or if the vote is allowed there are laws present which effectively prevents voting by non-whites.
2005
Universal voting by all citizens

Segregation:
Pre 62
It was the law with separate schools, public facilities, etc.
2005
Segregation is outlawed

I would assume Prayer means a Christian Prayer, how would you feel if the teacher were to lead the students in a Muslim, Jewish, Wiccan, etc prayer?

Atheist and God:
As mentioned earlier, the phrase "Under God" is only relevant to the Abrahamic Religions, Christianity, Islam, Jewish. There are many other religions where there is no concept of the Single God.

And even if the person is a Christian, it does not mean that they support mixing religion and the state.

Country without Morality
The underlying assumption is that there was morality in the past and presumably at a time where school prayer was allowed which is pre 1962.

The questions to ask then would be:
Is segregation, slavery, lynching and racism moral?
How moral is a society that allows such things?

Religion and Morality:
Religion is separate and distinct from Morality.

There are some people who are very religious and yet most people in society would view them as immoral, for example groups such as Christian Identity which promotes the idea that only Whites can go the heaven while the rest of the people to hell.

Then there are people who are do not subscribe to religion and yet turn out to be a major philanthropist such as Andrew Carnegie, who once said ""I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism" which to some extent shows that religion and patriotism are very separate matters.

Madeline Murry O'Hare:
I do not know why she was brought into the question and wonder about why is there a need to mentioned she was murdered, is there some implicit thing you are trying to suggest?

ahhhhhhhh. Bumpy. The voice of reason.

Bumpy is my hero in this thread!!!

First, slavery was not legal in 1961, sorry.
2nd, the civil rights movements had already started in 1962, sorry
women had the right to vote in 1961
I really hope you are not insinuating that all the good stuff came because prayer was taken out of the school because we all know that isn't true.
For crying out loud, the school have no control whatsoever over students anymore. Remember Columbine. Alot of teachers fear for their lives I am sure. God forbid a student get a "swat" like back in the day. More is the pity.
Spare the rod and spoil the child worked alot better then what is in school today. And please don't confuse this with child abuse because a swat in not child abuse. At least kids learned back then, I will take what the schools were like back in the 50's and 60's over what they are like now any day.

In reference to your last sentence - So that would be segregated? Yes let's go back to that, by all means.
Teacher's should never be allowed to "swat" at a student. It's assault and it certainly shouldn't be tolerated.

This conversation seems to be straying farther and farther from the topic at hand. Bumpy's point (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that removing organized prayer from public schools did not cause a drop in morality and values in our country. And on that point I can't help but agree.

Heres an idea. It may sound simplistic, but why not make the "under God" portion optional? If you want to say the phrase, do so. If not, just omit it when others are reciting it.

I used to go to a Catholic church with my Grandmother, but I wasn't Catholic. During the "Profession of Faith" I said most of it with the congregation. I omitted the part that said something like "I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apolistolic church."

I mean... there are so many worthy causes out there that need help. IMO this is a timewaster.

That isn't what Bumpy stated. Perhaps it would be a good idea to reread the preceding posts to see who drew the 1962/63 line between "moral" and "immoral"?

We all have different opinions and that is what this country is about.
If you don't want to say "Under God" don't say it but don't keep me from
saying it.

A "swat" is NOT assault. And they were still given in the 80's where I lived with a parents permission. I gave my permission. Now, the schools are run
by the kids and their is no control, inhibit the learning process, I would think so. I would bet a lot of money that my son learned more then kids do now.
Because of "swats", no, because the teachers USED to be in control and now
they aren't.

You are so right, I'm outta here.

I love these credible source arguments. The ones where "we all know".
Thats about a valid a stance as stating "they say"....

Ah thank you, I was waiting for this particular response.

Proper Reading:
If you look at my definition of Pre 62, it mentions from Independence to 1962. Also the phrase by itself "Pre 62" does not simply refer to the year 1962 which if that is what I wanted I would have typed it.

Three points I wanted to make with my earlier post:

1) Concept of Morality by itself
The concept of a Gradual Downward Spiral and lack of morality in the present time as opposed to the past for whatever reason simply does not hold true.

2) Prayer/"Under God": Good stuff and bad stuff are not related to School Prayer
Things such as "Under God" or school prayer does not lead to a moral society and as pointed out by milopixie the removal of them did not lead to any drop in morality. Therefore just as "not ... all the good stuff came because prayer was taken out of the school" the bad stuff in society today did not result from the lack of prayer in school. They are separate and distinct.

3) Schools in the Past:
Schools in the past were not better. The complaints with relation to discipline was present in 1950s-60s. But complaints on discipline are not a good indicator per se since it relates to opinion. Let us look at something objective, the percentage of high school dropout since the primary goal of education is to educate and it is not exactly possible to do that if someone drops out.

Percent of High School Dropouts (Status Dropouts) Among Persons 16 to 24 Years Old, by Sex and Race/Ethnicity: 1960 to 2001 (US Department of Education)

Year Total Sex Race/ethnicity
Men Women White, non-Hispanic Black, non-Hispanic Hispanic origin
1960 27.2 27.8 26.7 - - -
1970 15.0 14.2 15.7 13.22 27.92 -
1980 14.1 15.1 13.1 11.4 19.1 35.2
1985 12.6 13.4 11.8 10.4 15.2 27.6
1990 12.1 12.3 11.8 9.0 13.2 32.4
1995 12.0 12.2 11.7 8.6 12.1 30.0
1996 11.1 11.4 10.9 7.3 13.0 29.4
1997 11.0 11.9 10.1 7.6 13.4 25.3
1998 11.8 13.3 10.3 7.7 13.8 29.5
1999 11.2 11.9 10.5 7.3 12.6 28.6
2000 10.9 12.0 9.9 6.9 13.1 27.8
2001 10.7 12.2 9.3 7.3 10.9 27.0

Sorry if the table seem a bit off in alignment but as you can see the improvement is vast.

Therefore, even if there are problems in schools which were worse now than in the past, such problems has nothing to do with the the removal of teacher led school prayers just as the removal of the prayer did not result in the good stuff.

I you Bumpy.

Well those stats can be deceptive. They pass kids on through and graduate them and they are illiterate. Isn't this why the tests to gradutate started in the first place?
In 1960 it was not considered so important to graduate from high school as it is now. A lot of people dropped out and still did allright for themselves.
A lot dropped out and went into the military and got the rest of their education there.
IMO schools were much better in the 50's 60's 70's 80's before the teachers lost control.
Back then I didn't have to worry about kids bringing guns, knifes etc and going on shooting sprees. Metal dectectors, not back then.
If everything is so wonderful now, why is it like this?
You think what you want and I will too.

Well I'm thinking that the issues that you bring up that are so prevalent in schools today cannot be blamed on removing organized prayer from schools. Don't you feel parent's hold some responsibility for these problems?

Nowhere did anyone say, things are "so wonderful" right now. I think that point is being missed. There were problems when kids prayed in school and there are problems now that it is no longer allowed. The difference is that now, people are not having a religion that they don't necessarily believe in or agree with forced upon them.

Oh yes, parents shoulder most of the blame. Parents, too, have lost control
of their kids.
God forbid, you should discipline your child as in"spanking", you will go to jail.
A good spanking done with love is not a bad thing. You can bash me forever
but I will take kids the way they were.
Way to many kids are bratty little things that talk back to you, cuss at you, spit at you and will physically attacck you. Holy cow, watch Nanny 911 once.
Yep, it is the parents fault.
Discipline can be done without spanking but sometimes kids need that "fear"
of a physical punishment. I remember when I was little, thinking "oh, if I do this I will get a spanking" and it kept me from doing something.
My parents spanked me and I have wonderful parents that I love dearly. The did NOT assault me. I resent the implication that if a parent spanks or a teacher gives a student a swat it is assault.

This thread is veering too far . The topic under discussion is the pledge of allegiance, and its wording/constitutionality. Further posts which are not relevant to the subject-matter will be deleted.

That's what IMO is for. However, rather than going off on a tangent and completely derailing a thread, it would be appreciated if members started a new thread for topics that can merely be considered "semi-relevant".

Please do not delete the threads which seems to be off-topics, as I needed and indeed hoped for those particular responses. Let us refresh our minds on the topic at hand with the following brief summary of the topic and issue at hand and to relate all the responses generated back to the original topic.

Topic:
Teacher not allowed to lead pledge with the phrase "Under God" in Public School.

Issue:
Religion Imposed by Public School authorities as DEFINED as the pledge with the phrase "Under God" and also the issue of School Prayer which can fall under this general theme since arguments used by both are somewhat similar.

Two Brief Arguments For and Against
To refresh our minds, listed below are the two main arguments for and against Religion imposed by Public Schoo.

A) Argument Against Religion imposed by Public School:
Briefly two of the arguments against is that it forces or imposes religion on students or the using of public tax funds to support a particular religion.

B) Argument For Religion imposed by Public School:
Lack of religion in school lead to bad things or society falling apart.

The series of diversions and great replies by ckblv is necessary to illustrate that the particular Argument For Religion in school as defined above simply does not hold true.

1) Society/School did not become worse or less moral
The removal of Religion Imposed by Public School did not lead to Society/School becoming worse. No one is saying that the world is wonderful now but rather the world was NOT WONDERFUL BACK THEN and there were many problems in the past.

Alternatively:

2) Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School
EVEN IF one feels society/school have become worse over the years, it does not mean that the cause of it was the Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School.

The statement by ckblv in relation to Bad Stuff in the Past (Segregation, Racism, etc) and how it is not related to Religion in School shows that ckblv understands the concept that just because two things occur at around the same time, it does not mean they are related or connected.

Examination of Statements by ckblv:
I notice that while ckblv mentioned about the Gradual Decay of Society/School, ckblv did not link it to the removal of Religion Imposed by Public School explicitly.

Therefore there are two possible interpretation:

A) Implicit reference:
On the ASSUMPTION that what you mention has relevance to the topic, implicitly you are SUGGESTING that the cause of Decay of Society/School is the result of Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School. If that is the point you are trying to make then strict proof or at least a form of causation LINKAGE is required to link these two SEPARATE events together.

INDEED, the "off-topic" answers blaming discipline or parents shows that the problems, at least based on your words, are NOT related to the Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School.

FURTHERMORE, even ckblv admits that the schools in the 60s to 80s were better which must mean that since School Prayer was removed in the early 1960s, it has no impact on the problems in school. Therefore the removal of "Under God" would similarly not have any negative impact.

B) Relevance:
If instead the statements you made on School and Society is NOT to be linked to the Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School, then the reply would be:

While the problems mentioned are cause for concern, they are not relevant to the present issue in question, which is the Removal of Religion Imposed by Public School.

Conclusion:
THEREFORE. given that there is NO credible LINKAGE or connection between the Removal of Religion by Public School, the particular argument for religion, specifically the lack of religion in school leading to bad things or society falling apart, simply cannot hold true and should be WITHDRAWN.

Very logical to a non-believer, Bumpy. And I think that is where the disagreements come from.

As a believer in God, from my life experience all good things come from one true God, who created everything. This has been born out in my lifetime, and in the experiences of my loved ones. Many non-believers that I know see "Christians" as the bombers of abortion clinics, televangelists who yell and scream and weasel money out of innocent people.

Therefore, to me, the stepping away from religious symbols in school, like God in the pledge, and the ability to pray in school is extremely negative. And the fact that it is done in the courts instead of by a vote makes me feel as if my rights are being stomped on. And while the courts are available to protect the rights of a few, they should not be legislating. That puts the rights of one over the rights of all.

If we want to get into a more religious topic-me showing examples of good from God, and you showing examples of bad from religion, we need a new thread and I would need a LOT of help! But suffice it to say, I really believe one supreme being (God) created all, and remains in control today. And I do not think it hurts anyone to have God in the pledge.

I would not be opposed to a law that anyone could refrain from saying under God when the pledge is spoken publicly (especially in schools), but it should be decided by all of us. And I do not think a kid refraining form saying God should be lectured by his/her teacher; as previously stated, religion is for the parents to teach.

I wrote a long post, a few minutes ago, about my feelings on this subject.
I changed my mind & edited it down to these comments.

I want my experiences on TCS to remain positive.
I am only going to post comments that cannot be perceived as controversial by other members...I hope.
I love TCS.
Lei

I think trying to remain positive is a good thing. But to not be controversial to anyone...that defeats the purpose of IMO, (IMHO). But thanks, if you were trying not to offend me. I'm actually a big wimp! I love TCS, too.

I'm sorry, but I don't think religion should be mentioned at all in public schools. And unfortunately I think "deciding" (or voting) would lead to religious persecution by the majority religion. Which is great for the majority, but for those in the minority is not so fun. I mean, imagine that the majority religion changes in the next couple years, now...

Muslims are in the majority, so "one nation under Allah"
Athiests are in the majority, so "one nation without a god"
Pagans/Hindu/Shintoist/etc are in the majority, so "one nation under Gods"
The more feminine spirituality now dictates "one nation under Goddess"

But no worries, the majority is fair, and you (or your child or whoever is in school) may profess their own beliefs, under the droan of the teacher, PA system, and majority of other students saying it.

Personally, I would rather religion not be in our public schools in any way shape or form (except for obvious reasons like history lessons, promoting understanding, etc). If you wish your child to discuss god at school, there are private, religious schools for this very purpose. There are also a multitude of places outside of school that you/your child/family etc can discuss god, spirituality, and beliefs.

Public schools are there for everybody, whatever their personal religious beliefs, and should not, IMO, force even "mainstream" religions on impressionable children.

Is that where we are now? If students may or may not (their choice) say "Under God" during the Pledge then that is "forcing" religion down the non-believers throat? I don't think so.
Maybe the discussion should be (in a different thread)
What exactly does "Seperation of Church and State" mean EXACTLY. As written in the Constitution. Remember the Constitution, that little piece of paper our Govt is SUPPOSED to be based on?
Maybe I really don't understand it.

I feel that "Under God" should be kept in, for obvious reasons. If you don't want to say it, don't but don't keep me from saying it.

First, from what I understand, in many schools the only religion being excluded is Christianity. For instance, prior to Winter Break (it's not Christmas Break anymore, which is OK, IMO) the children learn about Chanukkah, Kwaanza, Ramadaan, but you can't say Christmas. (Although, note that they still don't learn about Yule...) Can't have a Christmas Program anymore, even if it includes other religious holidays. So there is still religion in schools...just not Christianity.

As for what the Constitution says, it says that there cannot be a State religion so there wouldn't be the situations that England had when the State religion was switching between Church of England and Catholic every few years when a new monarch was crowned. It says that no one can be forced to practice a specific religion. It is Freedom OF Religion, not necessarily Freedom FROM Religion.

Just as a sidenote, I am not Christian. I am pagan. I don't presume to insist that the rest of the country make exceptions for me. I realize that I am a minority religion. While I do expect for my rights to be respected and not infringed upon with regard to my choice of religion, I also realize that majority rules. So there will be Christian prayer before many sporting events and sessions of Congress and the Supreme Court, and "Under God" is included in the pledge, and "In God We Trust" is on the money.