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Discrimination more of a myth than we think?

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
Exploiting the Gender Gap
New York Times; By WARREN FARRELL; Op-Ed Contributor; September 5, 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/op...05farrell.html


Forum: Op-Ed Contributors



Carlsbad, Calif. — Nothing disturbs working women more than the statistics often mentioned on Labor Day showing that they are paid only 76 cents to men's dollar for the same work. If that were the whole story, it should disturb all of us; like many men, I have two daughters and a wife in the work force.

When I was on the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City, I blamed discrimination for that gap. Then I asked myself, "If an employer has to pay a man one dollar for the same work a woman would do for 76 cents, why would anyone hire a man?"

Perhaps, I thought, male bosses undervalue women. But I discovered that in 2000, women without bosses - who own their own businesses - earned only 49 percent of male business owners. Why? When the Rochester Institute of Technology surveyed business owners with M.B.A.'s from one top business school, they found that money was the primary motivator for only 29 percent of the women, versus 76 percent of the men. Women put a premium on autonomy, flexibility (25- to 35-hour weeks and proximity to home), fulfillment and safety.

After years of research, I discovered 25 differences in the work-life choices of men and women. All 25 lead to men earning more money, but to women having better lives.

High pay, as it turns out, is about tradeoffs. Men's tradeoffs include working more hours (women work more around the home); taking more dangerous, dirtier and outdoor jobs (garbage collecting, construction, trucking); relocating and traveling; and training for technical jobs with less people contact (like engineering).

Is the pay gap, then, about the different choices of men and women? Not quite. It's about parents' choices. Women who have never been married and are childless earn 117 percent of their childless male counterparts. (This comparison controls for education, hours worked and age.) Their decisions are more like married men's, and never-married men's decisions are more like women's in general (careers in arts, no weekend work, etc.)

Does this imply that mothers sacrifice careers? Not really. Surveys of men and women in their 20's find that both sexes (70 percent of men, and 63 percent of women) would sacrifice pay for more family time. The next generation's discussion will be about who gets to be the primary parent.

Don't women, though, earn less than men in the same job? Yes and no. For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics lumps together all medical doctors. Men are more likely to be surgeons (versus general practitioners) and work in private practice for hours that are longer and less predictable, and for more years. In brief, the same job is not the same. Are these women's choices? When I taught at a medical school, I saw that even my first-year female students eyed specialties with fewer and more predictable hours.

But don't female executives also make less than male executives? Yes. Discrimination? Let's look. The men are more frequently executives of national and international firms with more personnel and revenues, and responsible for bottom-line sales, marketing and finances, not human resources or public relations. They have more experience, relocate and travel overseas more, and so on.

Comparing men and women with the "same jobs," then, is to compare apples and oranges. However, when all 25 choices are the same, the great news for women is that then the women make more than the men. Is there discrimination against women? Yes, like the old boys' network. And sometimes discrimination against women becomes discrimination against men: in hazardous fields, women suffer fewer hazards. For example, more than 500 marines have died in the war in Iraq. All but two were men. In other fields, men are virtually excluded - try getting hired as a male dental hygienist, nursery school teacher, cocktail waiter.

There are 80 jobs in which women earn more than men - positions like financial analyst, speech-language pathologist, radiation therapist, library worker, biological technician, motion picture projectionist. Female sales engineers make 143 percent of their male counterparts; female statisticians earn 135 percent.

I want my daughters to know that people who work 44 hours a week make, on average, more than twice the pay of someone working 34 hours a week. And that pharmacists now earn almost as much as doctors. But only by abandoning our focus on discrimination against women can we discover these opportunities for women.

Warren Farrell is the author of "Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap - and What Women Can Do About It."



Would anyone have opinions that there is fault to these observations::::::::
post #2 of 12
Shh! Don't say this too loudly!!! Some people aren't happy without being victims of something.

I can tell you that I work in an engineering office. I've worked here for almost 4 years. We work with a lot of women architects, engineers and technical consultants. The electrical engineer that we recommend for project teams, and bid (and get) a lot of projects with, is owned by a woman. Of course I don't know if there is a pay differential, but I do know that this is a traditionally male dominated industry, and I know that the attitudes I see toward these women is no different than working with a man in the same position.
post #3 of 12
Honestly, I am one of those women that doesn't want to spend her whole life at work. Which in a lot of cases is what's need to make the big bucks. My priorities are different. I'd rather have a nice home and family than make a boat load of money. So the difference doesn't bother me. I make around the same amount as the guy sitting next to me. We've discussed this a little, he's been with the company longer.

I completely buy the idea that women make less because of their choices. I've already made the decision I like being at the lower end of the responsiblity chain. Less time at work more time to myself is a good thing.
post #4 of 12
I am a nurse, a high paying profession that I trained for while I was a single parent! Now, as a wife of a supportive husband, I work regular daytime only hours at an outpatient clinic. If I worked in a hospital, which includes working weekend and holidays, I would be earning a lot more.

Since we married, I have always earned slightly more than dh, until about six months ago.

If these numbers and facts presented in the article are true, it matches what is happening in my life!
post #5 of 12
I'm old fashioned...

I want to get married to the guy I love (and if he is a farmer, all the better) have about 2-4 kids, and be a stay at home mom and housewife.

I dont really care about college, and I dont really like jobs.

I could live the rest of my life like that. Maybe even start a cat rescue and adoption from my home, or some other small home business.

But in this day and age. It aint gonna happen. At least not until I'm older. The only ones who become stay at home moms are ones who get pregnant early like in high school. Otherwise guys and girls are all too busy with school and work to think about marriage, so they get marreid in their late 20's or 30's.

If I was knee deep in cow manure man.... I would be in heaven.
post #6 of 12
I don't think discrimination is a myth (or that those who claim to deal with are whiny victims) but I don't know about how it relates to wage I've certainly had a few moments of discrimination at work and seen women get casually stereotyped by fellow male students in film school, but as it relates to pay? It seems to me entirely possible that that is the truth. You know, until I read another article that refutes it.
post #7 of 12
Here's what I think: a lot of women out there DO have traditional values. And as long as that's a choice they have considered and made for themselves, that's dandy.

What I DO believe is happening is that society at large just ASSUMES that ALL women choose to have these values, spend more time at home, etc. A lot of women who have something else on their agenda get swept up in the more traditional flow of things and we end up being at a disadvantage.

As much as this article would use simple figures to deny it, the fact here is this: we, as a society, still have certain expectations for women that, not surprisingly, aren't at all fair to us as a whole. Whatever the reason is for teh wage gap (and there clearly is some sort of wage gap existing there), it's based on expectations for women in this society. I mean, just look back at some of Felicia (pandybear)'s posts about how relieved she is that her DH agress with her openly about not having kids. Why should that be something to be anxious about? If you don't want kids, don't have them. And women spending more time around the house? Do you think that's a magical coincidence that all the females just choose that they enjoy being at home more, etc, etc, etc, or is it a function of us believing and being so conditioned, that it would be almost unnatural to pull a double at work while dh is home scrubbing the floors, watching the kids and having evening wine and a heart-to-heart with his buddies from down the street? We do these things because we're conditioned to do them. Not because we can't do otherwise, or because it's unnatural for human females to do otherwise. In a lot of cultures, women make the decisions and own all the property. So, are they unnatural human beings or just subject to a differnt set of societal conditions?

I don't think I want to have kids. I mean, I love children, but I like being mobile and having nice things and working up a storm more than I enjoy children. In fact, the line of work I have chosen for myself (which is a male dominated industry) won't really be condusive to having children, or at least not until my late 30's which is the earliest I would ever consider popping one out anyway. I want to get married to Ian, but the only thing that makes the idea of marriage attractive is him and the idea that I wouldn't be able to have the legal benefits to our relationship, not because of the romance or the institution itself. In fact, I find the institution flawed (I mean, gee golly, look at that divorce rate!).

So all and all, fine. Make the arguement that women spend less time at work and are less money motivated (although, is that really a BAD thing?). But don't forget to look into the reasons for those occurences. Make the argument that people who work more get paid more, but don't stop there...figure out what it is that causes women to , across the board, work less.

I think you'd be surprised at what you find there.
post #8 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Here's what I think: a lot of women out there DO have traditional values. And as long as that's a choice they have considered and made for themselves, that's dandy.
Yes, my traditional values are my choice. In fact, after having my now 10 y/o daughter, dh stayed home with her and I went back to work because I earned about $2/hr more, and had insurance. It wasn't traumatic or anything, but we both knew that I preferred to stay home and he preferred to work.

He also has family values. When a child is home sick, we take turns (accounting for current work issues) staying home, despite the fact that I've been a parent 10 yrs longer than him, and I am a nurse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
What I DO believe is happening is that society at large just ASSUMES that ALL women choose to have these values, spend more time at home, etc. A lot of women who have something else on their agenda get swept up in the more traditional flow of things and we end up being at a disadvantage.
Maybe so, but it is just as bad to ASSUME that ALL women want to work long hours and either give up having a child for their career goals, or let someone else raise them. (Not having kids is fine, just don't give it up if you want it for the sake of a career!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
As much as this article would use simple figures to deny it, the fact here is this: we, as a society, still have certain expectations for women that, not surprisingly, aren't at all fair to us as a whole. Whatever the reason is for teh wage gap (and there clearly is some sort of wage gap existing there), it's based on expectations for women in this society. I mean, just look back at some of Felicia (pandybear)'s posts about how relieved she is that her DH agress with her openly about not having kids. Why should that be something to be anxious about? If you don't want kids, don't have them.
Would this be the same if the man in the couple didn't want kids? Just don't have them? I think any major decisions like either having or not having kids should be decided and agreed upon! Certainly there will be negotiating if the couple is in disagreement, but to expect someone unilateraly to make such a choice sounds very disrespectful to me, whether it is a man or woman deciding not to have kids, or someone "sneaking" in a pregnancy when the other partner doesn't want a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
And women spending more time around the house? Do you think that's a magical coincidence that all the females just choose that they enjoy being at home more, etc, etc, etc, or is it a function of us believing and being so conditioned, that it would be almost unnatural to pull a double at work while dh is home scrubbing the floors, watching the kids and having evening wine and a heart-to-heart with his buddies from down the street? We do these things because we're conditioned to do them. Not because we can't do otherwise, or because it's unnatural for human females to do otherwise. In a lot of cultures, women make the decisions and own all the property. So, are they unnatural human beings or just subject to a differnt set of societal conditions?

I don't think I want to have kids. I mean, I love children, but I like being mobile and having nice things and working up a storm more than I enjoy children. In fact, the line of work I have chosen for myself (which is a male dominated industry) won't really be condusive to having children, or at least not until my late 30's which is the earliest I would ever consider popping one out anyway. I want to get married to Ian, but the only thing that makes the idea of marriage attractive is him and the idea that I wouldn't be able to have the legal benefits to our relationship, not because of the romance or the institution itself. In fact, I find the institution flawed (I mean, gee golly, look at that divorce rate!).

So all and all, fine. Make the arguement that women spend less time at work and are less money motivated (although, is that really a BAD thing?). But don't forget to look into the reasons for those occurences. Make the argument that people who work more get paid more, but don't stop there...figure out what it is that causes women to , across the board, work less.

I think you'd be surprised at what you find there.
You make a lot of good points. Although we have different viewpoints on some areas, I agree that personal choice is what is important. We as women need to be both allowed and supported in our goals, whether it be Cassie wanting to be a stay at home wife, or you wanting to focus on your career, and understanding that childbirth is not a priority for you.
post #9 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigOrangeMenace
I'm old fashioned...

I want to get married to the guy I love (and if he is a farmer, all the better) have about 2-4 kids, and be a stay at home mom and housewife.

I dont really care about college, and I dont really like jobs.

I could live the rest of my life like that. Maybe even start a cat rescue and adoption from my home, or some other small home business.

But in this day and age. It aint gonna happen. At least not until I'm older. The only ones who become stay at home moms are ones who get pregnant early like in high school. Otherwise guys and girls are all too busy with school and work to think about marriage, so they get marreid in their late 20's or 30's.

If I was knee deep in cow manure man.... I would be in heaven.
Oh, Cassie, my now 22 y/o dd had a boyfriend who drove a truck collecting milk from the dairy farms. He had a few cows, too, and bragged about having been in 4-H. Sounds like he would be a good match for you!

Be careful wanting to marry a farmer-that is such a hard job to make a good living at! If you marry a farmer, you may not be able to afford to stay home! I'm sure you will figure something out, though. In the meantime, try to find a job you will like...maybe at a farm?
post #10 of 12
I think Lionessrampant made some good points. Discrimination isn't a myth, though evidence suggests that the statistics traditionally used are skewed, and the actual difference in hourly wage isn't as large as it is claimed.

The point of the feminist movement was to make women free to follow their bliss. If that means marrying and being a full-time mother, great, you go girl. If that means opting out of children and pursuing a career, you go too girl. Or any combination thereof. But what lionessrampant was trying to point out, I think, is that the common perception in business is that women are not as good promotable material as men because they will have conflicts with family and work, while men won't. It is assumed that if children are involved, the female of any heterosexual partnership will be the one to make any necessary work sacrifices. And thus they are passed over for promotions in favor of a man.

Plus, if I work 34 hours per week, and a man works 44 hours per week, his annual pay may be higher but I see no reason why his HOURLY pay should be higher if we do the same work. You know?
post #11 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi


Plus, if I work 34 hours per week, and a man works 44 hours per week, his annual pay may be higher but I see no reason why his HOURLY pay should be higher if we do the same work. You know?
Amen
This is the kind I have run into .. I would have years more experience and the guys alway s got a higher hourly... I work flex time it pays well and about what if I got a "regular " job I would make for a 40 hour week and I do it in 25-35 and when I can
post #12 of 12
I worked serving tables, and year after year it seemed that the male servers earned a higher percentage tip without as many "backflips". Our restaurant made a point of calling us servers, citing studies that showed that the term "waitress" conjured up a less-respected position than "waiter". We agreed; we didn't mind being called servers, since we are not "drivers" & "driveresses", etc. As for cocktail servers, the one guy who became one (not outstanding in efficiency nor all that great looking) made awesome tips from the guests, mostly guys, without any of the flirting, harassment, etc.
But my sister's experience in the phone company was opposite - she was promoted over many men; she firmly believes that good job skills do pay off. She says that ideally a corp. is "Bottom-line" oriented and good management knows what makes the most business sense. She waited till quite late to start her family, because she recognized that "mommy track" could really interfere with her career. So her life pretty much falls in line with what Warren Farrell's article said.
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