Looking for a Good early spay/neuter arguement

Extremely well said Gayef.

Something that has never set right with me: A person can allow their female cat to have a dozen litters and dump them at the shelter everytime, and that's just life - adopting those kittens makes you a hero even. But no one puts the pressure on this person to spay their cat and quit adding to the problem, no one points the finger at stray breeders (whether they mean to be or not, they are still breeders) and say "it's your fault we have so many homeless and dying animals!" They say it to the breeders.

If a breeder just attempts to exist in a respectful way, we are torn apart by other pet professionals. Well, it's not my cats clogging up the shelter population, and my animals have titles and are treated with the highest standards of care. Not to mention all the time and effort I spend finding homes for my kittens/retired cats so that they never end up homeles or unloved. My cats don't get dumped off because I care and am repsonsible. But this makes me a monster to many people simply because I'm breeding towards a pre-set standard.

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

It may just be in Bengals. I was told that they need their testosterone in order to grow properly, and that probably because he was neutered a bit too soon, he didn't have enough hormone to grow he proper size. I was told this by a breeder.

Simba's parents are both large, and his father is huge. Simba had very big feet, when he was a kitten, but after his neuter, he didn't grow much at all. He's about the same size as he was at 5 months. He hasn't grown much since then. I don't have scientific proof of this.

I had always thought that if you neutered them young, that they would grow larger, but maybe that's different for Bengals.

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Hope,

Bengals really don't have a different set of rules for their growth than other cats in regards to altering. What probably happened in Simbas case, is that his genetics kept him from getting as big as you thought he might be.
It can be very difficult to predict how big a bengal cat might get. You can make an educated guess based on the parents size and anything else known about the bloodlines, but asian leopard cats are small. And I'm sure you know that the ALC blood is in all bengals. So Simba might just have DNA that pre-disposed him to being small.
Not all bengal breeders agree on everything and so you'll get conflicting information about various aspects of the breed.
Based on my experiences with this breed, I believe guessing a bengal kittens' final adult size is hit or miss, with about a 60-70% chance of being correct based on just looking at the parents.

Originally Posted by Mihoshi

Extremely well said Gayef.

Something that has never set right with me: A person can allow their female cat to have a dozen litters and dump them at the shelter everytime, and that's just life - adopting those kittens makes you a hero even. But no one puts the pressure on this person to spay their cat and quit adding to the problem, no one points the finger at stray breeders (whether they mean to be or not, they are still breeders) and say "it's your fault we have so many homeless and dying animals!" They say it to the breeders.

If a breeder just attempts to exist in a respectful way, we are torn apart by other pet professionals. Well, it's not my cats clogging up the shelter population, and my animals have titles and are treated with the highest standards of care. Not to mention all the time and effort I spend finding homes for my kittens/retired cats so that they never end up homeles or unloved. My cats don't get dumped off because I care and am repsonsible. But this makes me a monster to many people simply because I'm breeding towards a pre-set standard.

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Unfortunately I would say that responsible breeders make up the minority of individuals out there....you don't have to go far to see a case of an unscrupulous breeder being shut down or find pictures of puppy mill puppies that were purchased from a pet store and turned out to be sick. Plus, it seems that even the big named organizations that have been tasked with regulating the industry (AKC for example) are willing to give papers to just about anyone. For those of us in the trenches trying to save lives of both purebred animals and moggies/mixed breeds, it does seem that most breeders are unwilling to assist us in making things better. Case in point, the rescue I volunteer with received 8 small dogs from a cruelty case involving a "breeder". All the dogs had been kept 24/7 in carriers no bigger then they were....they were completely unsocialized and many had issues with their skin, teeth and eyes. And who got to pay to get these little ones back to health? We did. Who had to try to place them into appropriate homes? We did. And the adoption fee did not cover the expenses we paid. It becomes very easy when faced with enough of these cases to develop a very skewed opinion of breeders in general (even if it isn't deserved).

Those of us in the rescue community are working tirelessly to get those people who allow their kitty to breed year after year after year to finally have their cat spayed by offering programs such as "spay the momma" and opening more low cost and no cost clinics. We are also working with groups like Alley Cat Allies to address the feral cat populations and trying to convince shelters to alter animals before they are released to an adoptor. All we ask is that the breeder community help to regulate their own community so that one day...unscrupulous breeders are in the minority and not the majority. That being said...I think this site and especially this forum is a good start to teach people who are looking at becoming breeders the things they need to understand before they even purchase their cats and also what it takes to be a responsible breeder. For that...I am grateful.

Katie

Mihoshi, if there is a veterinary school in your area, there's a good chance that you can get early spay/neuter and for cheaper, like if you get surgery at a teaching hospital. I don't know if there's an animal husbandry school in your area, though.

Originally Posted by TNR1

Unfortunately I would say that responsible breeders make up the minority of individuals out there....you don't have to go far to see a case of an unscrupulous breeder being shut down or find pictures of puppy mill puppies that were purchased from a pet store and turned out to be sick. Plus, it seems that even the big named organizations that have been tasked with regulating the industry (AKC for example) are willing to give papers to just about anyone. For those of us in the trenches trying to save lives of both purebred animals and moggies/mixed breeds, it does seem that most breeders are unwilling to assist us in making things better. Case in point, the rescue I volunteer with received 8 small dogs from a cruelty case involving a "breeder". All the dogs had been kept 24/7 in carriers no bigger then they were....they were completely unsocialized and many had issues with their skin, teeth and eyes. And who got to pay to get these little ones back to health? We did. Who had to try to place them into appropriate homes? We did. And the adoption fee did not cover the expenses we paid. It becomes very easy when faced with enough of these cases to develop a very skewed opinion of breeders in general (even if it isn't deserved).

Those of us in the rescue community are working tirelessly to get those people who allow their kitty to breed year after year after year to finally have their cat spayed by offering programs such as "spay the momma" and opening more low cost and no cost clinics. We are also working with groups like Alley Cat Allies to address the feral cat populations and trying to convince shelters to alter animals before they are released to an adoptor. All we ask is that the breeder community help to regulate their own community so that one day...unscrupulous breeders are in the minority and not the majority. That being said...I think this site and especially this forum is a good start to teach people who are looking at becoming breeders the things they need to understand before they even purchase their cats and also what it takes to be a responsible breeder. For that...I am grateful.

Katie

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Katie, you say that, from your experience, the majority of "breeders" are irresponsible and unscrupulous, but just exactly what is your definition of a breeder? I'm not trying to be argumentative, although I know that it might sound that way (I never learned to write) - I'm just trying to see exactly how the rescue community defines a breeder. If a "breeder" means someone who allows any two animals with reproductive parts still intact to have offspring, then one must also include all the irresponsible mixed-breed cat owners as being "breeders" and you must define humans (as they are animals) who have children as "breeders".

I think you may be unaware of the fact that CFA and TICA (and probably most of the other registries) have purebreed rescue people working tirelessly to retrieve and place so-called purebred animals in new homes - even though many of these "purebred" animals are as close to being a breed as you or I are. What many of these same people mention over and over again is that they have to tiptoe around the rabidly anti-breeder community in order to even get these cats out of shelters and placed, although the goals of finding a good home for the animals are theoretically the same.

There is very little we, as breeders, or the registering bodies can do to control the activities of unscrupulous people who will always find a way of breeding so-called purebreds. Early spay and neuter, when one can find a vet to perform the same and a pet owner willing to pay the cost of having a kitten come already spayed or neutered, is an extremely effective way of preventing a particular animal from being bred. The next best thing, to keep an honest person honest, is to have a written contract and restrictions on the registration papers of Not For Breeding as the resulting kittens could not be registered. We can also all work to help those kittens and cats which result from a breeding program by performing rescues and taking back any kitten or cat which a pet owner can no longer keep.

However, as a community, there is very little we can do about people who lie to get a kitten and then turn around and breed it without registration papers. There appears, as you may have noticed Katie, to be a network of BYBs who all know each other and who trade off stud services, kittens and misinformation.

I think this forum, while being a good place to help breeders learn how to responsibly breed, should also be a place to teach pet owners how to be responsible OWNERS.

There is much talk of what makes a good or bad breeder, but I have seen no discussion of the fact that a good many people are not fit to own pets IMO.

I have had many people whom I would not consider fit to own a goldfish call me up trying to get a kitten from me. Here's are some examples:

- Woman calls me up and says she wants a kitten and it must be a female. First thoughts in MY mind are "Why would she want a female specifically - does she think she's going to breed it?", so I ask her "Why a female?". Her answer - "Because I hear they make better mousers." <*huh?> My response - "Since my cats will NEVER be allowed outside nor will they be used for mousing, this is a moot point. Thank you for calling. Perhaps you can adopt a cat from someone advertising free kittens to a good home." <*sigh*>

- A man calls me up and tells me he would like to get a kitten for his mother. I ask him whether she wants a kitten, knows about his quest for one, and whether they know anything at all about the Siamese breed. Answer: "No, it would be a surprise for his mother. But she would be glad to get rid of her other cat to have a new kitten."!!!! What do you suppose MY response was? (Fill in the blanks here)

- Then, of course, there are the people who think they need a new kitten to replace the one which was run over in the road. When asked why it was outside, they respond that it's natural for cats to be outside.

- There are the types who want to get a kitten as a toy for their children.

- There are also the types who will mention that their cat just died. You ask them why and their response is that they don't know. It just wasn't doing well for a couple of months and then it died. You inquire as to whether they took it to the vet and their answer is "No, I didn't have the time or money."

CFA has a mentoring program for new breeders. Perhaps it needs a mentoring program for new pet owners.

Katie, in no way am I denegrating the good done by the rescue community - a MUCH needed group of people who work hard to help animals left and right. But blaming breeders for all the problems, rather than recognizing that even if there were NO breeders - by anyone's definition of that word - there would still be millions of animals needing rescue due to human nature, is doing a disservice to the problem of overpopulation.

Perhaps, Katie, would you be willing to post rules for good pet ownership for us (without involving a discussion of whether such a cat comes from a breeder, a shelter or off the street)? I would like to see that information listed as a learning tool. I truly appreciate your posts and your thoughtful responses.

Barb Amalfi

Thank you for the tip turtlecat, there is the OSU vet close by, I suppose they'd be one of the best schools to look into if any.

TNR1, I also worked in a shelter for 3 years, and I will agree that there are so many awful idiots out there - but those are exactly what I'm trying to prevent by early spay/neuter. Believe me, I've seen what you've seen and many things that no animal lover should have to see - I am completely against mills, BYBs, brokers, pet stores, and the like - but I don't think it's fair to label an entire group based on some morons. That's like saying you don't like a race of people because a lot of them tend to do something bad.

There truly are breeders out there that are working to make the breeds they love better, and NOT to make their pocketbook bigger. By then end of it all, I make pennies on the hour on my kittens, so no, I do none of it for the money. But, I can't help what other, less caring, less responsible people do. For single cat homes I even force people to adopt a shelter cat to be the Maus buddy as they don't do well alone. Now, I could easily say "get two from me" and some people insist on having two purebred, but getting a rescue is always my recomendation. I've seen the kittens die for no other reason than lack of space, and if I could get some help to organize it, I would love to run a Mau rescue (as the only other one is in Florida). I'm not just in it for the cats I breed, if I can save a moggie, I'm more than thrilled to. In the country where I live I have 30 stays on any one day here, and I do what I can to take care of them and find them homes. So please don't think that I push my cats onto people and turn a blind eye to the rest, my hopes with the Mau is to help make the blood lines healthier, not to just put to registered cats together.

Also, I have to mention that you can't blame the CFA, AKC, TICA or any of the like for registering purebred animals from mills, that's what they do. I mean, if you bought a car that turned out to be a lemon who would you go after? The person that sold it to you? File a complaint with the state? You wouldn't go after the DMV/BMV would you? That's all that these registries are, registries - they attempt to regulate mills and keep an eye on things to keep their name out of the mud, but it's really not their purpose, all they're meant to do is track the lineage of pedgiree animals and issue certificates.

Oh my Barb I know what you mean there. I have so many people say something silly like "I can only take a kitten if it's under 8 weeks!" and my reply is always "Then you don't need one of mine, check your local shelter." People get so angry, I've had to block so many phone numbers until finally I stopped giving out my contact information. People have to e-mail me, fill out my questionnaire, then get invited to the cattery (and a mini-quiz to see if their answers match later), then I give a yay or niegh on the adoption.

I turn away hundreds of people who say the slightest thing "wrong." For instance, someone didn't pay attention that I spay/neuter myself and told me this in reference to a 5 month old kitten: "Thank you so much for the pictures, she's exactly what I've been look for! But she's a little old, do you have any younger or are you expecting any more litters soon? Also, I'm a little worried about having to pay the adoption fee and then take on the expense of getting her spayed so soon after taking her."

How many things are wrong with that paragraph? I simply replied that if they couldn't afford the spaying then there is no way she could afford to properly care for the cat and promptly blocked her e-mail address.

So many other people try to talk you into letting them start breeding claiming that they'll only do it once or twice and the cat will be a pet before all else. I always reply that I don't condone of breeding just to do it and hit the block button.

There is very little we, as breeders, or the registering bodies can do to control the activities of unscrupulous people who will always find a way of breeding so-called purebreds.

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But you see...rescue groups see that as a cop out and that is a HUGE area of contention because that means the rescue groups have to not only try to address those individuals who are breeding moggies...accidentally or purposefully, we also must (without breeder community support) try to find ways (via legislative activities or via webcommunities) to close puppy mills, stop BYBs and educate people about what is considered to be responsible versus irresponsible. I do know about the rescue programs....AKC has several as well. But it doesn't help to stop the source of these purebreds...until the mills and BYBs are reduced or shut down...it's an endless cycle.

I don't think it's fair to label an entire group based on some morons. That's like saying you don't like a race of people because a lot of them tend to do something bad.

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Fair or not....those morons are getting a LOT more press and are making a bigger impact than all of the responsible breeders combined. Just look at Craigslist or Just Pets or any one of the online sites that allow people to sell puppies and kittens. Those are also the ones that come in to the rescue community...so those are the ones that most rescuers base their opinions of breeders on.

Katie, in no way am I denegrating the good done by the rescue community - a MUCH needed group of people who work hard to help animals left and right. But blaming breeders for all the problems, rather than recognizing that even if there were NO breeders - by anyone's definition of that word - there would still be millions of animals needing rescue due to human nature, is doing a disservice to the problem of overpopulation.

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That is not true at all....even statistically speaking....the majority of dogs/cats are still acquired from breeders...whether it be a BYB, Petstore, puppy mill, online etc. If you are trying to say that if we were able to stop all that breeding from occuring that the overpopulation would exist...certainly it would for a while...but it would be a heck of a lot easier to bring it under control. Fewer dogs and cats that were acquired through those avenues would be brought into the shelter system..and consequently, more cats and dogs would be adopted due to that being the avenue of choice. Do I think that is realistic?? No...but to deny that breeders have SOME role in the overpopulation is as much a disservice as holding breeders completely accountable for it.

BTW....I have never said I was anti responsible breeder...but I do see far fewer "responsible breeders" than irresponsible ones. I'd like that to change someday.

Katie

I've heard the argument about how altered cats get fat, and I haven't seen much consistent proof. (Of course, most of the HUUUUUUUUUGE cats that I've seen have been altered...but I think that just reflects the fact that people who spoil cats are more likely to alter them. Or vice versa.)

I have, however, noticed an apparent tendency towards small size in cats that are altered early.

-Qit

Originally Posted by Qit el-Remel

I've heard the argument about how altered cats get fat, and I haven't seen much consistent proof. (Of course, most of the HUUUUUUUUUGE cats that I've seen have been altered...but I think that just reflects the fact that people who spoil cats are more likely to alter them. Or vice versa.)

I have, however, noticed an apparent tendency towards small size in cats that are altered early.

-Qit

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Qit...one would have to ask if that is a result simply of spaying/neutering or whether that can be attributed to other factors such as diet or lack of physical activity.

Katie

We had to nuter our Toby at about 4 months....he was driving us nuts with his yowling and attempts to get out (a little female was coming around sitting outside the window seducing him )
Our vet said if he was old enough to "get the idea" then he was old enough to fix.
He`ll be a year old next week and he weighs 14 pounds....(and he`s not fat)....it does`nt seem to have stunted his growth at all.

Originally Posted by TNR1

But you see...rescue groups see that as a cop out and that is a HUGE area of contention because that means the rescue groups have to not only try to address those individuals who are breeding moggies...accidentally or purposefully, we also must (without breeder community support) try to find ways (via legislative activities or via webcommunities) to close puppy mills, stop BYBs and educate people about what is considered to be responsible versus irresponsible. I do know about the rescue programs....AKC has several as well. But it doesn't help to stop the source of these purebreds...until the mills and BYBs are reduced or shut down...it's an endless cycle.



Fair or not....those morons are getting a LOT more press and are making a bigger impact than all of the responsible breeders combined. Just look at Craigslist or Just Pets or any one of the online sites that allow people to sell puppies and kittens. Those are also the ones that come in to the rescue community...so those are the ones that most rescuers base their opinions of breeders on.



That is not true at all....even statistically speaking....the majority of dogs/cats are still acquired from breeders...whether it be a BYB, Petstore, puppy mill, online etc. If you are trying to say that if we were able to stop all that breeding from occuring that the overpopulation would exist...certainly it would for a while...but it would be a heck of a lot easier to bring it under control. Fewer dogs and cats that were acquired through those avenues would be brought into the shelter system..and consequently, more cats and dogs would be adopted due to that being the avenue of choice. Do I think that is realistic?? No...but to deny that breeders have SOME role in the overpopulation is as much a disservice as holding breeders completely accountable for it.

BTW....I have never said I was anti responsible breeder...but I do see far fewer "responsible breeders" than irresponsible ones. I'd like that to change someday.

Katie

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First of all, Katie, there is NO SUCH THING as purebred. Without registration papers, a cat is not a breed at all - it is a moggy. Therefore, when you describe "purebreds" in shelters, unless an animal is turned in with registration papers, it is NOT a breed. Breeders don't breed animals without registration papers.

I want to see what statistics you have which show the percentage of cats which end up in shelters or being "saved" are papered animals. Can you point me to some source, WHICH ISN'T PETA, which accurately can show me where the "MAJORITY OF DOGS/CATS (in the shelter system) are still acquired from breeders...whether it be a BYB, Petstore, puppy mill, online etc." Furthermore, just how many animals which are placed by irresponsible shelters come back into the shelter system because they are not neutered/spayed when they left or because the owner doesn't care about an animal obtained from that source.

You still have answered what you define as a "breeder". Kindly answer this question.

BTW, this is still the Breeder's Forum - not the Rescue Forum. Aren't there enough places for misinformation about "purebreds" in rescues without posting it here?

Barb Amalfi

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

First of all, Katie, there is NO SUCH THING as purebred. Without registration papers, a cat is not a breed at all - it is a moggy. Therefore, when you describe "purebreds" in shelters, unless an animal is turned in with registration papers, it is NOT a breed. Breeders don't breed animals without registration papers.

I want to see what statistics you have which show the percentage of cats which end up in shelters or being "saved" are papered animals. Can you point me to some source, WHICH ISN'T PETA, which accurately can show me where the "MAJORITY OF DOGS/CATS (in the shelter system) are still acquired from breeders...whether it be a BYB, Petstore, puppy mill, online etc." Furthermore, just how many animals which are placed by irresponsible shelters come back into the shelter system because they are not neutered/spayed when they left or because the owner doesn't care about an animal obtained from that source.

You still have answered what you define as a "breeder". Kindly answer this question.

BTW, this is still the Breeder's Forum - not the Rescue Forum. Aren't there enough places for misinformation about "purebreds" in rescues without posting it here?

Barb Amalfi

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Barb....this is a breeder's forum....but I do believe this discussion opened a door that needs to be discussed.

You are reading things into my post that just aren't true. Why does it matter what my definition of a "breeder" is? Truth is...any animal that has a "paper" is considered to be from a breeder...and yes, puppy/kitten mills, BYBs and petstores all supply those with their animals. Doesn't take but a quick search on the internet to show how vast the availability is of "registered" animals.

I didn't say the majority of pets that end up in shelters are from breeders...what I said was that overwhelmingly, pets are ACQUIRED from those sources. It really doesn't take statistics to work those numbers out...if people weren't buying from BYBs, if they weren't buying from petstores, if they weren't buying from puppy mills..these locations wouldn't exist. And it doesn't take statistics to show that there are a majority of them out there offering these animals. Plus...doesn't matter what your definition or my definition of a breeder is...it's already out there for people to react to:

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html

Also...I never said the "majority" of dogs/cats that come into shelters are purebred. What I said (as a response to your claim that it isn't the fault of breeders we have an overpopulation..which I did agree wasn't the sole cause..but did say was a factor) was that if breeding stopped...we wouldn't have to deal with the dogs/cats that are acquired through irresponsible breeders and then given up to the shelter system. We wouldn't have to deal with the legal cases where a BYB or a puppy mill is shut down and there are hundreds of animals that then take their toll on the shelter system. Do you honestly think that as the court is pulling these dogs/cats out of these shameful situations that they go back and grab all the 'registration papers'? No. Does it matter to the rescue community that there isn't a 'paper' with the dogs/cats? No. But there is a stigma that is associated with this type of activity that breeders need to be aware. Just as a bad shelter has a negative impact on shelters/rescues (regardless of if it is justified) the same holds true when there is a irresponsible breeder that is shut down.

The area that our rescue pulls from does not get a lot of purebreds...however, there are some rescues/shelters that do have 25% or more of their animals that were obtained from a puppy mill or BYB. These shelters are usually in states where there are large puppy mill or BYB networks. Again...as far as education goes...I don't think we would ever see a responsible breeder's animal through our doors (they should have protocols in place to prevent that such as taking their animals back and spay/neuter of pet quality kittens/puppies)...but you cannot deny the impact these irresponsible breeders have on the shelter system.

Ok..so now we get to your gripe about shelters and returns of animals that are unfixed. Again...MAJOR hot topic..why? Well, for one thing...shelters are there because of owners who give up their pets...pets that are acquired....you guessed where this is heading....so we end up in a cycle of blame. But to your point, we are working on shelters that currently adopt out intact animals. Every year more and more shelters are performing pre-adoptive spay/neuter...and for that reason (intact animals) as well as the short time that is given to animals in shelters...rescues are formed in order to take these dogs/cats/puppies and kittens out of the shelter system and do all the spaying/neutering, try to find more appropriate homes and offer to take their animals back (much as a responsible breeder does). Many rescues and shelters are now even microchipping their animals so that if the DO end up back in the shelter system they can be easily identified and then sent back to the rescue that first placed them. Does this mean that all shelters and rescues are saints?? Absolutely not. We have the same issues in our community that are faced in the breeder community. Rescues are shut down also..and yes...they place a toll on the shelter system as well. Sometimes it's understandable....a person gets sick and can no longer care for the animals she has been rescuing or like in the aftermath of Katrina...a shelter is wiped out and the animals must be moved to other facilities but sometimes it's just WRONG...like a rescuer who doesn't spay/neuter and keeps their animals in poor conditions (much like a puppy mill) and yes..there are people who still think they can make money off of being a 'rescue'. These are the individuals we are trying to stop...and we do take responsibility to try to determine ways to reduce these from occuring.

So yes..there are 2 sides to this coin....but what I don't see...and what needs to occur, is that responsible breeders and responsible rescuers need to work together instead of pointing fingers at each other (I say that all the time to the extremists in my community who hear the word breeder and ultimately assign blame without understanding). Together, we would be an amazing voice for animals.

Just to go back to the reasoning for this discussion, my point earlier was to say that if responsible breeders believe they are being given a raw deal..you can thank your irresponsible counterparts for that.

Open up your paper TNR1, count the number of "free to good home" puppies and puppies listed as purebred but no with registration papers.

As far as what ends up in shelters, where does breeder responsibility end and owner responsibility begin? No breeder, good or bad, forces an owner to abandon their animal to a shelter. The good ones will always leave their door open to take the animals they produce back, but we can't force those owners to do that, and we certainly can't keep tabs on every cat we ever place for it's entire lifetime. That's the problem, even the good breeders can't force a person to be a good owner for 15+ years. It's the people buying these animals without knowing anything about them that get into these dumping situations. The amount taken from mills and dumped by breeders pale in comparison to the individual dog owners that get board and dump their dogs.


I like and repect good shelters just as I like and respect good breeders, but there are as many crooked rescues as there are bad breeders. The current HSUS stats say that 45% of animals in a shelter are "purebred" not that they are registered, not that they were bought from a breeder. Secondly, from personal experience, I know VERY well that rescue workers will lie their behinds off to place an animal - rescuers will claim a dog is purebred because it LOOKS purebred, which means absolutely nothing. Even go onto Yahoo! classifieds, there are dozens of "mau mixes" which is based on a whim when you look at the animals picture - rescuers see spot like areas and decide to call it part Mau because those are uncommon and exotic and more likely to attract a persons adoption than if it said stray.

It's such a small minded thing to come up with a solution that breeders shouldn't exist. Many of these pedigree cats have been around for thousands of years, and because of some jerks out there who don't care, you would prefer to punish all of those who DO care and who have devoted much of their life to preserving thier breed. Shelters would really exterminate thousands of years of work so that the moggie owners don't have to take as much responsibility? I don't disagree that many people behave unethically, but hating all breeders because a percentage of them are wrong is being a bigot, plain and simple! A hispanic person broke into my house last year while I was home, that doesn't mean my hispanic neighbors would do the same thing, and that is exactly what you've been suggesting. I don't put myself in the same class as the people who hand out kittens for the right price, so please quit attempting to group me there.

Again, open up your paper and see how many moggies are there compared to how many purebreds. How about the vets stop charing $200 to spay/neuter a cat when it only costs them $10 in materials to do the procedure? I just stopped being a vet tech to stay with my son, I know how much vets rip people off until it comes to the point of who you can afford to care for, your human family or your four-legged family member. Maybe if these irresponsible owners could afford their vet, then they could act responsibly. My paper has a 20:1 ratio and none of these are rescue adds, and those who aren't taken are usually dumped at my farm.

I also hate that shelters point fingers at breeders while letting unaltered animals go to new homes to continue the cycle of stray breeding. They're not even in it for the money, so they're pretending to care while knowing they are adding to the problem. But, if breeders and shelters could campaign together to promote responsible owners, then the problem would really be solved. If people know better, they can avoid BYBs and mills, and if they did adopt from them, then they would know the importance of spay/neutering the animal over becoming a BYB themselves. The only way to stop mills is to educate their clients. The only way to stop dumpings is to make sure that potential owners can obtain information on the breed they're obtaining. Why can't shelters and breeders ban together and and point the finger like Uncle Sam at the owners and say "I Want You To Be Responsible!" If the two sides keep blaming the other one for all of their problems, then the overpopulation will continue to get worse.

I've been on both sides of the fence, I understand what it looks like to shelters, but shelters refuse to take a step back and look at the responsible breeders point of view. We can promote helping owners, or we can promote hating each other, but as long as breeders are being shunned by rescues and vets, it will never come together.

Originally Posted by Mihoshi

As far as what ends up in shelters, where does breeder responsibility end and owner responsibility begin?

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Exactly! If we put all the breeders who didn't practice responsibility and put them in one pile and all the shelters who also didn't practice responsibility in another pile and then all the irresponsible pet owners in yet a third pile - which pile would be overwhelmingly bigger? Wait, don't even think about it - I'll tell you which one would be bigger ... the irresponsible PET OWNERS.

Breeders ARE trying to work with rescue and shelters in order to bring some balance and to get the message of spay/neuter out there. But as I have already said to you (in a private conversation), it seems that rescue is beating their heads against one side of a brick wall while breeders are beating their heads against the other side of that same brick wall, while irresponsible pet owners are simply jumping over the wall without so much as a backwards glance.

When placing blame - we cannot overlook these people who will come into your home or shelter to consider either purchasing or adopting a kitten and look you right in the eye as they lie through their teeth to you about their plans for that kitten! The way I see it is that until we can stop irresponsible pet ownership, we won't make a dent in the overpopulation crisis.

~gf~

ummmm you never have to worry about spraying or your female going into heat

Open up your paper TNR1, count the number of puppies listed as purebred but no with registration papers.

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Yeh..but you cannot say whether those dogs/cats came from an irresponsible breeder or a shelter.

The good ones will always leave their door open to take the animals they produce back, but we can't force those owners to do that, and we certainly can't keep tabs on every cat we ever place for it's entire lifetime. That's the problem, even the good breeders can't force a person to be a good owner for 15+ years.

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Ok..you cannot enforce good ownership...but you CAN try to stem the tide of irresponsible breeders by spaying/neutering pet quality kittens AND you CAN microchip your kittens so that when one is dropped off at a shelter...you are contacted. That would help.

It's such a small minded thing to come up with a solution that breeders shouldn't exist.

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Again...NEVER SAID THAT..but for some reason....this keeps coming back into posts.

Again, open up your paper and see how many moggies are there compared to how many purebreds.

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What was being discussed originally was the fact that breeders were tired of being faced with discrimination. I am simply explaining why that discrimination exists. Don't even think for a moment that irresponsible owners who breed moggies get any less anger....and as I stated before, we are working on that.

I've been on both sides of the fence, I understand what it looks like to shelters, but shelters refuse to take a step back and look at the responsible breeders point of view.

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But ask yourself this...BEFORE you became a breeder, were you even aware of the responsible breeders out there?? Were you not angered and upset by the BYBs and mills that received headlines? I wouldn't say that rescues/shelters refuse to see it from the responsible breeders perspective...I would say that too much time is spent on BOTH SIDES placing blame and not trying to see each other's view...that works from both a rescue/shelter AND breeder side.

If the two sides keep blaming the other one for all of their problems, then the overpopulation will continue to get worse.

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The overpopulation has been going down not up...first, by aggressively promoting adoption and recently, due to an emphasis on spay/neuter....which is why there is a new emphasis to shut down irresponsible breeders who do not spay/neuter or really care if their animals are spayed/neutered and to promote pre-adoptive spaying/neutering for rescues/shelters.

I also hate that shelters point fingers at breeders while letting unaltered animals go to new homes to continue the cycle of stray breeding.

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Yeh....we've (responsible rescues and shelters) pointed out the 'hey pot, it's me kettle' aspect of it. More and more rescues and shelters are working towards getting those that allow animals out intact to start spaying/neutering prior to adoption. Alley Cat Allies and other organizations are working on the feral/stray population to stabilize their populations.

But, if breeders and shelters could campaign together to promote responsible owners, then the problem would really be solved. If people know better, they can avoid BYBs and mills, and if they did adopt from them, then they would know the importance of spay/neutering the animal over becoming a BYB themselves. The only way to stop mills is to educate their clients. The only way to stop dumpings is to make sure that potential owners can obtain information on the breed they're obtaining.

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That would be a start. The goal really should be that any animal NOT in a breeding program should be spayed/neutered prior to going to an adoptor/buyer. That would at least significantly reduce the number of unwanted new puppies and kittens out there. There are programs in the works to train adoptors to be better owners...and microchipping is helping to reunite owners and additionally ensure that dogs and cats dropped off at a different shelter are returned to the rescue they originated from.

When placing blame - we cannot overlook these people who will come into your home or shelter to consider either purchasing or adopting a kitten and look you right in the eye as they lie through their teeth to you about their plans for that kitten!

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True....and fact is....I don't trust people with intact animals. Regardless of their good intentions...it's too easy to "forget" to set up the spay appt. and one accidental outing can lead to an unexpected litter. There are also people who just won't ever be good owners and we must try to be more pro-active in weeding those individuals out...and that must be again something worked together on.

Katie

Originally Posted by TNR1

Yeh..but you cannot say whether those dogs/cats came from an irresponsible breeder or a shelter.

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Actually, we CAN say whether or not those dogs/cats came from an irresponsible breeder and the answer is that is a resounding NO. They didn't come from a ~breeder~ at all. They came from an irresponsible ~pet owner~. Again, I think the difference here is in the interpretation of the word "breeder" and that is why it is SO important that people change their perception. Breeders do not allow litters to be produced without first doing a lot of observation, research and genetic fact-finding. Planning a litter can be a very meticulous process which requires a lot of forethought. The people you are referring to don't bother to think it though or even understand why they are breeding those two specific animals, all they know is that it will get them kittens to sell. Those people ARE NOT BREEDERS. I refuse to be placed in the same pile with those people. If they are breeders then I need to find something else to call myself because I simply won't be tossed in with them.

Originally Posted by TNR1

Ok..you cannot enforce good ownership...but you CAN try to stem the tide of irresponsible breeders by spaying/neutering pet quality kittens AND you CAN microchip your kittens so that when one is dropped off at a shelter...you are contacted. That would help.

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Yes, it would. And if safe, competant and affordable early spay/neuter were available to all areas of the country by all vets for all people who seek it, then it would be a step in the right direction. But even so, the message here is better served to the vet community, NOT the breeder community. Make it so the vets are compliant and the breeders will follow their example.

Originally Posted by TNR1

What was being discussed originally was the fact that breeders were tired of being faced with discrimination. I am simply explaining why that discrimination exists. Don't even think for a moment that irresponsible owners who breed moggies get any less anger....and as I stated before, we are working on that.

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We are tired of the discrimination but have tolerated and yes, even accepted it because we agree with you (rescue) - it seemed easier and much less confrontational for many of us to want to join forces with rescue so we could all work towards a common goal - where things get hazy is in what that goal should be and how to get there. Somewhere along the way, rescue has forgotten that we are not the bad guys. We are on your team - we want the same things you do. We simply disagree with the methods that rescue has employed. In some cases (not necessarily yours, Katie) those methods include people actually threatening us, sending Animal Control into our homes and even into our bedrooms for invasive and frightening "inspections", and causing us to doubt and mistrust everyone around us. There was a time after I was attacked by an anti-breeder rescue zealot that I was afraid to even leave my house for fear that my cats would be gone (or worse) when I returned. It is no small wonder we are tired of it.

Originally Posted by TNR1

I wouldn't say that rescues/shelters refuse to see it from the responsible breeders perspective...I would say that too much time is spent on BOTH SIDES placing blame and not trying to see each other's view...that works from both a rescue/shelter AND breeder side.

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And let the congregation say AMEN! So, then logically, the answer would seem to be that we both admit and acknowledge that the bulk of the blame is on irresponsible pet owners and focus our efforts on them - not on each other.

Originally Posted by TNR1

The overpopulation has been going down not up...first, by aggressively promoting adoption and recently, due to an emphasis on spay/neuter....which is why there is a new emphasis to shut down irresponsible breeders who do not spay/neuter or really care if their animals are spayed/neutered and to promote pre-adoptive spaying/neutering for rescues/shelters.

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Correction: You should be placing a new emphasis on shutting down irresponsible pet owners who allow their animals to breed. Again, these people are not breeders.

Originally Posted by TNR1

The goal really should be that any animal NOT in a breeding program should be spayed/neutered prior to going to an adoptor/buyer. That would at least significantly reduce the number of unwanted new puppies and kittens out there. There are programs in the works to train adoptors to be better owners...and microchipping is helping to reunite owners and additionally ensure that dogs and cats dropped off at a different shelter are returned to the rescue they originated from.

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Then bring about a change in the way that both the pet owning population and vets see pediatric spay/neuter, calm their fear of it, educate them about it, make sure there are mentoring programs available to the vets to learn how to do it safely and then remind them to be reasonable when charging their patients for it. THAT may significantly increase the number of people seeking it. It goes back to Economics 101 - if there is a demand by the pet owning population for more vets to offer the service, then more vets will begin to meet that demand. So, again, the message isn't best addressed to the breeders, it is best addressed to the vet community and the pet owning population.

The idea of "parenting" classes for potential pet owners makes me smile a bit, but in reality, it is a good idea. Have members representative of rescue and the breeding community work together to develop the lesson plan that covers feeding and nutrition, general care and health issues including what vaccinations should and should not be considered, reproductive issues with a strong emphasis on covering the necessity of spay/neuter, exercise and the risks of the great outdoors, and knowing that caring for a pet is also learning how to be strong enough to let go when it is time. Don't just settle for making better owners, strive to teach them to be THE BEST owners and to set an example for their children, other family members and their neighbors - here is a quick idea on how you can start to reach those owners. Call your local YM/WCA and ask if your group can sponsor a Responsible Pet Ownership class. Make the morning part of that class a field trip to the local shelter where they see for themselves the numbers of animals already in residence and the surrender process, allow them to feed and water the animals there and to change litter and clean cages. In the afternoon, lead a short discussion on the sadness they just saw. Then teach them how to avoid causing that sadness. Make that class mandatory for every person considering adoption and if they don't show up for the class, they don't adopt. Also make this class something the general public can attend even if they are not adopting from you - and charge a small fee to them for it. Then, breeders can send these people to your classes - if they don't show up for the class, they don't get a kitten or a puppy from the breeder.

Originally Posted by TNR1

There are also people who just won't ever be good owners and we must try to be more pro-active in weeding those individuals out...and that must be again something worked together on.

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Then work with us to develop an acceptable standard of care for pets and make it a policy to apply that standard across the board - no exceptions. Work with us to develop those classes we discussed above. Work with us to open the lines of communication so when a pet owner does get by us, we can both be informed of it and be better equipped to take the appropriate action against that pet owner.

Originally Posted by Mihoshi

Also, I have to mention that you can't blame the CFA, AKC, TICA or any of the like for registering purebred animals from mills, that's what they do. I mean, if you bought a car that turned out to be a lemon who would you go after? The person that sold it to you? File a complaint with the state? You wouldn't go after the DMV/BMV would you? That's all that these registries are, registries - they attempt to regulate mills and keep an eye on things to keep their name out of the mud, but it's really not their purpose, all they're meant to do is track the lineage of pedgiree animals and issue certificates.

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I have no idea how CFA, AKC and TICA works. I'm a member of FIFÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] and they have quite strict rules about how their members should act and treat our cats (what's acceptable and what's not). FIFÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] doesn't only register purebred cats, they promote good ownership and serious breeding. I do believe that all larger cat organisations have a resonsibility to make sure their members are promoting "good pet ownership" and serious breeding.

Those people ARE NOT BREEDERS

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Yes they are Gaye....look up the word "breeder" in a dictionary:

Main Entry: breed·er
Function: noun
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or plant kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism

breeder

n : a person who breeds animals [syn: stock breeder]

Just because these people do not fit your criteria doesn't make them any less a breeder. A breeder is based on intent..not how well that intent is executed. Besides...if we say that all registered purebreds are from breeders...then we must include those individuals who run mills and BYBs as they can clearly show papers for their puppies/kittens. You can certainly also call them irresponsible owners...but they are also breeders.

here is a quick idea on how you can start to reach those owners. Call your local YM/WCA and ask if your group can sponsor a Responsible Pet Ownership class. Make the morning part of that class a field trip to the local shelter where they see for themselves the numbers of animals already in residence and the surrender process, allow them to feed and water the animals there and to change litter and clean cages. In the afternoon, lead a short discussion on the sadness they just saw. Then teach them how to avoid causing that sadness. Also make this class something the general public can attend even if they are not adopting from you - and charge a small fee to them for it. Then, breeders can send these people to your classes - if they don't show up for the class, they don't get a kitten or a puppy from the breeder.

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Gaye..as someone who used to work in the shelter community....where exactly do we find the time to hold such a class. After we are done answering calls/emails but before we take care of the 100+ animals at our ranch? Or maybe before we make the hour drive from Spottsylvania to the 3 adoption events we hold on a weekend. Or maybe after we go and select which animals at the shelter we will actually pull. There just isn't time Gaye for such an undertaking. We are volunteer based which means we are reliant upon the availability of those who help us....and their time is precious too.

That is why we are doing things to keep the animals we place out of shelters...1. ALL our animals are fixed prior to going into homes and 2. we make it very clear that any animal we adopt must be returned to us if the person can no longer care for it. It's at least a start and we can say that our animals do not add to the overpopulation as they cannot even potentially be bred.

The Richmond SPCA has a really good program called "project safety net" where they help people who are having issues with their pets...they also have A LOT more funding and are in a bigger locale.

I agree that there is a need to address owners out there....but I don't understand why everything must fall to the rescue community to start or address and then the breeders will help. Why can't some of it be started by breeders? I see a lot of people who are looking for purebreds and don't know the first thing about what to look for in a responsible breeder...should that information come from the rescue community? Or would it be better addressed by those individuals who are already breeders.

I think at this point...I will stop contributing to this thread...I do not like being put in the middle of what are hard feelings that are on both ends of this discussion (I got an ear full this weekend at the spay clinic from fellow rescuers who are just as adement that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder) so for my sanity...I'm pulling out. Yes...I can see both sides...but understandibly...I'm tired.

Katie