Burmillas?

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

You will be rescuing them from a shelter as well, and not paying the money. That person placing the kittens will profit from you. What about health of the kittens? Have they been seen by a vet? Have they been vaccinated? Have the cat parents been tested for diseases such as Felv and Fiv? If you get a cat from a responcible breeder, at least you will get a health guarantee, and kittens that have been checked by a vet. The responcible breeder has a contract, and if ktten dies from a congenital defect within a certain time, you can either get him replaced, or get your money back. In the situation described, good luck to get anything out of that person, whover he is, who is supposedly selling these cats on behalf of some elderly lady.
There are many people posted here, who bought kittens from those irresponcible breeders, only to have those kittens to get sick and die.

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Cats from a humane society or shelter are not always healthy either so the point I was really trying to make was that you would be rescuing these kitties just as much as you would be if you went to a shelter for a cat. I've also read on this site about all the cats and kittens that people got from shelters that have gotten very sick within days and weeks. There is no guarantee no matter where you get your cat. As for taking the cat back to a responsible breeder, I can only say that once I've got a kitten/cat and grown to love him/her, I wouldn't take them back no matter what. We can only say from experience that the money we paid for Simba was money well spent even when he got sick and it cost us over $1,000 trying to save him.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Cats from a humane society or shelter are not always healthy either so the point I was really trying to make was that you would be rescuing these kitties just as much as you would be if you went to a shelter for a cat. I've also read on this site about all the cats and kittens that people got from shelters that have gotten very sick within days and weeks. There is no guarantee no matter where you get your cat. As for taking the cat back to a responsible breeder, I can only say that once I've got a kitten/cat and grown to love him/her, I wouldn't take them back no matter what. We can only say from experience that the money we paid for Simba was money well spent even when he got sick and it cost us over $1,000 trying to save him.

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No, shelter cats aren't always healthy either. But when you are bying from an irresponcible breeder, an irresponcible person who shouldn't be breeding in a first place is making a profit off you.
My position is-if you are buying from a breeder, you might as well get your money worth by buying from a responcilble person, instead of giving your money to someone who probably going to continue to irresponcibly breed as long as he/ she is getting a profit. This person is being encouraged to breed more when he/she has no business to be breeding in a first place by getting money for these kittens. Your money is going to support something that it shouldn't support, IMO.

Oh, I thought this lady was just trying to get rid of the cats for another lady that couldn't look after them any more in which case they probably won't be breeding them anymore.

I agree totally with you that we shouldn't support BYB's but these poor kitties are already here and need a home. That's my only point so I'll cease to keep this "difference of opinion" going.

It is entirely fair to say that things do happen, circumstances do change, sometimes on a whim, not always to the positive and when they do, we can only hope that we are able to recognize when we have gotten in over our heads. It is obvious to me from the original post that 1) an elderly breeder found she couldn't care for her cats appropriately anymore and 2) she was responsible enough to acknowledge that and seek the assistance of this person trying to find homes for them. Before we go charging blindly in here bashing this person with the kittens and/or breeders, let's look at the circumstances as they were presented and keep it on topic, shall we?

I feel compelled to say that yes, some of us may employ methods that ~pet owners~ find ... for the lack of a better word ... uncomfortable, but the reality of caring for breeding animals IN ONE'S HOME is that these methods are often the most successful ways of dealing with issues that do arise ~for breeders~. Pet owners have an entirely different experience. The way I see it is that unless you have lived a day as a breeder and know for yourself how we keep and care for our cats, you haven't the right to tell us we are wrong for what we do or how we do it. We are breeders - with issues and problems that are specific to breeding. Most pet owners do not understand this nor can they relate at all because they are pet owners - not breeders. There is a huge difference.

~gf~

Originally Posted by gayef

It is entirely fair to say that things do happen, circumstances do change, sometimes on a whim, not always to the positive and when they do, we can only hope that we are able to recognize when we have gotten in over our heads. It is obvious to me from the original post that 1) an elderly breeder found she couldn't care for her cats appropriately anymore and 2) she was responsible enough to acknowledge that and seek the assistance of this person trying to find homes for them. Before we go charging blindly in here bashing this person with the kittens and/or breeders, let's look at the circumstances as they were presented and keep it on topic, shall we?

I feel compelled to say that yes, some of us may employ methods that ~pet owners~ find ... for the lack of a better word ... uncomfortable, but the reality of caring for breeding animals IN ONE'S HOME is that these methods are often the most successful ways of dealing with issues that do arise ~for breeders~. Pet owners have an entirely different experience. The way I see it is that unless you have lived a day as a breeder and know for yourself how we keep and care for our cats, you haven't the right to tell us we are wrong for what we do or how we do it. We are breeders - with issues and problems that are specific to breeding. Most pet owners do not understand this nor can they relate at all because they are pet owners - not breeders. There is a huge difference.

~gf~

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Maybe so, but we have a right not to buy from a breeder that doesn't make us comfortable either. By the way, back in a day, I used to have a cat that was un-spayed and had kittens couple of times a year. I suppose that makes me a breeder, and I was dealing with issues the way I saw fit, and no one can tell me I was wrong?

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

Maybe so, but we have a right not to buy from a breeder that doesn't make us comfortable either. By the way, back in a day, I used to have a cat that was un-spayed and had kittens couple of times a year. I suppose that makes me a breeder, and I was dealing with issues the way I saw fit, and no one can tell me I was wrong?

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Absolutely you have the right not to purchase a kitten from a breeder that makes you uncomfortable - and I am not encouraging anyone to do that here. But what I am saying is that just because breeders may employ methods that do not work for you as a pet owner doesn't always mean they are wrong. It just means they may be wrong for you as a pet owner. Many breeders produce lovely, healthy, well-socialized kittens even if they cage a stud for a while or from time to time, confine the kittens for their own safety and it is at best, unfair to those breeders and at worst, a total inaccuracy to comment otherwise.

IMO, what that made you, back in the day, was an uninformed owner who simply didn't know any better. I do not judge you for making mistakes, we all do. Obviously, you have progressed from there and learned from those mistakes. But you were not, by any meaning of the word, a breeder. Just because you can put two cats who possess the ability to reproduce together and have a litter from them doesn't ~presto chango~ make you a breeder. Were you wrong? By today's standards, yes. But things were different, as you put it, back in the day. The mentality was different. So, again, were you wrong? No, because that was the accepted standard then.

~gf~

Good clarification and well said Gaye.

I believe our Simba was proof that "accidents" happen even with breeders and that would probably explain the cages since Simba was Himalayan/Siamese. I doubt the breeder was trying to breed cross cats.

I give kudos to you responsible breeders - it's a major commitment and mostly done for your love of a specific breed. You'll never get rich from breeding so I know it is done for love.

As to getting back on topic, I hope these kitties get a good home.

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

Maybe so, but we have a right not to buy from a breeder that doesn't make us comfortable either. By the way, back in a day, I used to have a cat that was un-spayed and had kittens couple of times a year. I suppose that makes me a breeder, and I was dealing with issues the way I saw fit, and no one can tell me I was wrong?

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No, as a matter of fact it didn't make you a breeder - it made you an irresponsible pet owner who didn't have the sense to spay her female - especially as you say it occurred more than once. You can't possibly be old enough that you lived in a day when people didn't spay or neuter their pets since my grandparents spayed and neutered their animals in the very early 1900s. Would you also suggest that a woman who has children is a breeder since apparently your definition of a breeder is someone who has offspring from two mixed-breed parents or doesn't know what he or she is doing?

I cannot figure out where you get the idea that people who are raising animals -whether responsible people (by the way - this is how the word is spelled) or not - are making money off of you. No one is forcing you to buy from someone who has bred or is raising kittens if you don't feel comfortable. Any number of shelters charge as much as $150.00 for an "adoption fee" with no guarantee of health or temperament either. Aren't they also making money off of you if you support them?

BTW, how is this typical animal rescue type discussion getting onto the Breeder's Forum??? Shouldn't this belong elsewhere as this Board is for Breeders and their concerns?

Barbara Amalfi

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

No, as a matter of fact it didn't make you a breeder - it made you an irresponsible pet owner who didn't have the sense to spay her female - especially as you say it occurred more than once. You can't possibly be old enough that you lived in a day when people didn't spay or neuter their pets since my grandparents spayed and neutered their animals in the very early 1900s. Would you also suggest that a woman who has children is a breeder since apparently your definition of a breeder is someone who has offspring from two mixed-breed parents or doesn't know what he or she is doing?

I cannot figure out where you get the idea that people who are raising animals -whether responsible people (by the way - this is how the word is spelled) or not - are making money off of you. No one is forcing you to buy from someone who has bred or is raising kittens if you don't feel comfortable. Any number of shelters charge as much as $150.00 for an "adoption fee" with no guarantee of health or temperament either. Aren't they also making money off of you if you support them?

BTW, how is this typical animal rescue type discussion getting onto the Breeder's Forum??? Shouldn't this belong elsewhere as this Board is for Breeders and their concerns?

Barbara Amalfi

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No, I am not that old, but it wasn't in US. I have never said that people who breed animals are by definition responsible (and do excuse me if I make a mistake in spelling now and then, it's hard to spell in a non-native language).

And I am not advocating that this person adopted from a rescue or shelter. I am advocating he/she looked for a better breeder that doesn't cage their cats, would give her a health guarantee, and would be there in a long run, if the cat dies/gets sick with a genetic problem. I have bought two persian cats from a breeder, and even have a book " Your purebred kitten". Everything described by the original poster about this breeder is a "no-no". I fail to undestand why some of the breeders here would advocate the poster would buy these kittens.

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

No, I am not that old, but it wasn't in US. I have never said that people who breed animals are by definition responsible (and do excuse me if I make a mistake in spelling now and then, it's hard to spell in a non-native language).

And I am not advocating that this person adopted from a rescue or shelter. I am advocating he/she looked for a better breeder that doesn't cage their cats, would give her a health guarantee, and would be there in a long run, if the cat dies/gets sick with a genetic problem. I have bought two persian cats from a breeder, and even have a book " Your purebred kitten". Everything described by the original poster about this breeder is a "no-no". I fail to undestand why some of the breeders here would advocate the poster would buy these kittens.

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No one here - breeder or otherwise - suggested that the original poster buy kittens from a source she wasn't comfortable with - what has happened here is that this thread has broken down into a discussion/debate on what does and what does not constitute a good breeder. We can only go by what the original poster told us and from that we can only gather that the person selling the kittens was, in fact, not the breeder ... she was assisting the breeder, who had evidently found herself in circumstances where she could not continue to care properly for those kittens ... a broker if you will.

The person doing that brokering obviously didn't have the first clue as to how it is done and was only trying to help someone who found themselves having a difficult time. What I fail to understand is why you want to make this a debate about the merits of a good breeder when there is NO BREEDER in the transaction as it was presented to us here. Can you not simple see it for what it was ... a concerned but uninformed person trying to help another person in obvious need. How does that break down to a bad breeder?

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

BTW, how is this typical animal rescue type discussion getting onto the Breeder's Forum??? Shouldn't this belong elsewhere as this Board is for Breeders and their concerns?

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Even though I strongly feel there is a place here at TCS for everyone no matter what role you play in giving care to cats, I have to agree with Barb here.

Rescue provides a much-needed and extremely valuable service to the cats and I am not in any way trying to say they don't. I whole-heartedly support their efforts. However, as Barb has pointed out, this is The Breeder's Corner. When someone comes here to ask questions, they expect they will be getting answers from breeders - not the rescue community. Please understand that as breeders, we have the intelligence to recognize when someone would be happier with a rescue or shelter kitty and are always happy to steer people towards those organizations which may be better suited to assist them than we are.

Perhaps we should all keep that in mind when composing our posts and replies here.

Originally Posted by gayef

No one here - breeder or otherwise - suggested that the original poster buy kittens from a source she wasn't comfortable with - what has happened here is that this thread has broken down into a discussion/debate on what does and what does not constitute a good breeder. We can only go by what the original poster told us and from that we can only gather that the person selling the kittens was, in fact, not the breeder ... she was assisting the breeder, who had evidently found herself in circumstances where she could not continue to care properly for those kittens ... a broker if you will.

The person doing that brokering obviously didn't have the first clue as to how it is done and was only trying to help someone who found themselves having a difficult time. What I fail to understand is why you want to make this a debate about the merits of a good breeder when there is NO BREEDER in the transaction as it was presented to us here. Can you not simple see it for what it was ... a concerned but uninformed person trying to help another person in obvious need. How does that break down to a bad breeder?

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Yes, I see it. Uninformed person selling kittens for someone else. Do these kittens have health guarantee? Have the parents been tested for Felv, Fiv, and FIP? Are the kittens socialized, freindly, and up to the breed's standard?
Does this uninformed person provides a contract? Have these kittens been checked by a vet? Have they recieved their vaccinations? Do they have their registration papers? Even pet stores check for Felv.
If answer is No on all or at most of the above, then it's a situation to aviod at all costs, IMO.

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

No, I am not that old, but it wasn't in US. I have never said that people who breed animals are by definition responsible (and do excuse me if I make a mistake in spelling now and then, it's hard to spell in a non-native language).

And I am not advocating that this person adopted from a rescue or shelter. I am advocating he/she looked for a better breeder that doesn't cage their cats, would give her a health guarantee, and would be there in a long run, if the cat dies/gets sick with a genetic problem. I have bought two persian cats from a breeder, and even have a book " Your purebred kitten". Everything described by the original poster about this breeder is a "no-no". I fail to undestand why some of the breeders here would advocate the poster would buy these kittens.

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I was not aware that you were not writing in a native language. After all, I've seen worse spelling from Americans.

But I think we have been, as Gaye said, talking about two different things. You have been making this discussion, which was originally a question about purchasing a Burmese or Burmilla kitten, into a discussion about good vs. bad breeders and have not been able to see that the kittens described by the original poster were NOT being sold by a breeder - they were being sold FOR an elderly woman who should not have been breeding and who apparently needed help from someone else in getting a home for the resulting kittens. No one is advocating that the woman buy a kitten from this source. What we are doing is correcting misconceptions about animal husbandry.

I have no idea where people get the idea that caging kittens is something a "bad" breeder does. Most breeders have the common sense to realize that queens and kittens must be caged for their own safety and health's sake. Would the same people who think that mothers and kittens should be allowed to run around a house unsupervised also think that it was OK to allow toddlers (since this is what kittens are) to run unsupervised around a person's house or out in public?

I think, although Gaye has not pointed this out, that it should be noted that kittens cannot even regulate their own body temperature until they are about 3 weeks of age. Furthermore, they do not have a developed immune system until they are about one year in age. In addition, mothers will take small kittens and hide them all over the house if they are not confined with the babies, and little kittens can be stepped on and killed, rolled over on in bed, etc., etc., etc. I know a woman who caused a serious hernia in a 7-week old kitten by accidentally stepping on it as it ran under her feet. I've also have known of a kitten which broke its neck because it had climbed on top of a high piece of furniture and fallen before the person could get over to the area to catch the kitten.

There is nothing about caging which will make a kitten unsocialized. Lack of socialization comes from lack of attention and lack of handling of kittens - not the fact that they are confined to a cage until they are old enough to be allowed to safely run around in a house. It is generally only rank newbies or BYBs who advertise kittens as being "raised underfoot". Newbies do this because they think there is something wrong about caging as they read posts from people who don't understand the practice, and BYBs do it because the public mistakenly believes that a kitten can't be socialized if it is confined.

This is why, as this is the Breeders Forum, discussions are best left to actual breeders. If the pet-owning populace has questions they wish answered - such as why kittens might be caged - they could then learn from the breeders rather than chiming in and stating unequivocably that there is something wrong about practices employed by breeders when the pet owners know nothing about raising healthy, socialized kittens or the practice of feline husbandry.

Barb Amalfi

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

Yes, I see it. Uninformed person selling kittens for someone else. Do these kittens have health guarantee? Have the parents been tested for Felv, Fiv, and FIP? Are the kittens socialized, freindly, and up to the breed's standard?
Does this uninformed person provides a contract? Have these kittens been checked by a vet? Have they recieved their vaccinations? Do they have their registration papers? Even pet stores check for Felv.
If answer is No on all or at most of the above, then it's a situation to aviod at all costs, IMO.

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What are you talking about? Here is the situation:


1. old woman could not take care of her cats, which she was allowing to breed, probably for lack of finances/health issues.

2. person who happens to be a breeder takes them and tries to find them homes. as they most likely arent fixed, she cages them so that they wont mate with her cats. Most likely, she has her hands full, running a cattery, and willgive a contract asking the people adopting to spay/neuter, and the basic vetting's been taken care of.

3. You see the word "breeder", and launch forward with your anti-breeder clawed mitts out, assuming that they must immediately be a greedy person with 95 cats spawning constantly, with sick, sad kittens (who, because of their origin, dont deserve a home, as they would just be taking an equally poorly (but more deserving, as it is borne of pet owners' ignorance, rather than breeder's greed) shelter-cat's spot) for astronomical amounts of money.


This is not a "big bad breeder" situation. It is simply someone who is possibly overwhelmed and more competent than you're giving them credit for, (as it would've been far easier for them to dump all the cats four miles down the road and drive off than to put in the effort to find them all homes) trying to help her friend. If it were joe everyone doing this, would you be clawing at their throat, or would you be commending them for their efforts and wishing them the best?

Originally Posted by CommonOddity042

What are you talking about? Here is the situation:


1. old woman could not take care of her cats, which she was allowing to breed, probably for lack of finances/health issues.

2. person who happens to be a breeder takes them and tries to find them homes. as they most likely arent fixed, she cages them so that they wont mate with her cats. Most likely, she has her hands full, running a cattery, and willgive a contract asking the people adopting to spay/neuter, and the basic vetting's been taken care of.

3. You see the word "breeder", and launch forward with your anti-breeder clawed mitts out, assuming that they must immediately be a greedy person with 95 cats spawning constantly, with sick, sad kittens (who, because of their origin, dont deserve a home, as they would just be taking an equally poorly (but more deserving, as it is borne of pet owners' ignorance, rather than breeder's greed) shelter-cat's spot) for astronomical amounts of money.


This is not a "big bad breeder" situation. It is simply someone who is possibly overwhelmed and more competent than you're giving them credit for, (as it would've been far easier for them to dump all the cats four miles down the road and drive off than to put in the effort to find them all homes) trying to help her friend. If it were joe everyone doing this, would you be clawing at their throat, or would you be commending them for their efforts and wishing them the best?

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I am getting pretty tired of this. Someone who is eldrely, overwhelmed, and can not take care of their cats and kittens is a BAD breeder, no matter how you look at it. If someone is so elderely they can no longer take care of their cats they shouldn't be breeding. I don't have any "anti-breeder" claws. I bougth my own two persian cats from breeders. I am simply stating the obvious here-if someone like you say is so elderly, has no financial resources to breed this cats-what is this person doing breeding them?

This is really getting out of hand. The original poster has long since left the thread. The subject matter is all over the spectrum now.
I think Elizwithcat is entitled to her opinion, whether I agree with it or not. But the attacks on her are getting kind of harsh.

I'm not a breeder and all I was trying to say much earlier here was that we had gotten a caged animal and he turned out to be the most affectionate kitty we ever had (after a socialization period which I think most cats need to go through when entering a new and strange household - times to adjust may vary).

I was all for her taking the cat(s) and go through this adjustment just to give them a good home. Health check, spaying, vaccinations, etc. - those are all things I would expect the new owner would do with ANY kitten they got regardless of where they got it.

From there this thread went wild.

I have great respect for you breeders and I know that you respect persons who choose shelters over breeders or vice versa. I think "respect" is the key word in this thread right now. You breeding folks have a lot to teach the rest of us if we are willing to listen and learn.

Keep up the good work.

Getting back to the topic - it would be nice to help this lady out and give some wonderful kitties a good home at the same time.