ummm hi!!

Originally Posted by xomycatsxo

The first one about feral cats (which really is about any 'outdoor' cat):
http://www.petaliterature.com/prodin...tem=5&mitem=10

Teshia

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I do not recommend the PETA brochure for working with Feral Cats. If someone would like to order brochures on working with feral cats...Alley Cat Allies has some wonderful brochures that show compassion and do not recommend euthanasia. Simply because there is a CHANCE that a cat could die...does it make sense to recommend an automatic death sentence?? Even outdoor cats deserve to live.

http://www.alleycat.org/tools.html

Katie

Hmm.. seems your original post disappeared and you "edited" it to what is below. Originally, YOU posted this link from Peta. http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=38

Does that link from Peta ANYWHERE state they recommend euthanasia?? Absolutely not! They say, sadly, it does have to happen. Your post before you edited it ALSO agreed w/ euthanasia being the inevitable in some cases, but it can be done the humane way. You even directed people in how it should be done! Everything you said is almost a MIRROR message of what Peta is saying in this article. Is that why you edited it and took it out?

AND, as far as you saying Peta has a "spotty opinion" , well- in my 'spotty' opinion- that's exactly what you have. If you're going to moderate a board, I think you should consider what you're educating people on. They DO NOT recommend euthanasia like you claim. I think, as a mod, you should research things before you go and state something like this. Insinuating that Peta is not compassionate and recommends euthanasia is simply not true- and I'm sure members of Peta will eventually read this and thank me for standing up for them. The lady that started Peta (Ingrid) many, many, many years ago is an amazing person - she loves animals and she has built an amazing company because of her beliefs, and her amazing passion for animals. Last known, her salary was $25,000 a year- that's IT! She does this because of her compassion for animals.

And for additional information so you aren't ill-informed about Peta (or anyone for the matter).. this was a letter that Ingrid wrote regarding a tragedy that put them in the headlines. And just an fyi, I normally would have no reason to post this, but you seem to have something against them (w/ this particular topic anyway). This post was about someone getting a cat for the first time, the link I gave was a perfect link to what can happen to cats outdoors. There was no need to get into mention of feral's at all.. at least on this board. But because of your post.. I feel the need to defend a company that has does nothing but amazing things for animals, including cats (stray or not).

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From Ingrid Newkirk of Peta:

July 8, 2005

The heartbreaking issue of euthanizing dogs and cats and PETA's struggle with it has been put in the spotlight recently because of a terrible situation in North Carolina. I am writing to you today because I want to be sure that you have the details and background about this case and to give you an explanation for the controversy that has resulted.

As you know, PETA concentrates on exposing the cruelty to animals inherent in food, clothing, experimentation, and entertainment industries. But we couldn't turn our backs when we were contacted five years ago by a police officer in North Carolina who was distressed by conditions in a county pound. These rural counties had pitiful shacks that they called "shelters," where dogs drowned during floods and workers killed animals with a .22 caliber firearm or gassed them in a leaky, rusty metal box. Other dogs and cats were killed with an injection of a paralytic drug that causes respiratory arrest before loss of consciousness, leaving animals to suffer horrific deaths by suffocation while their organs freeze up.

I was a humane officer for many years before founding PETA, and I saw appalling things, but this was as vile and cruel as anything I had seen on the streets of Washington, D.C. Most shamefully of all, North Carolina has the second-highest kill rate in the nation - 35 animals are killed annually for every 1,000 residents! Others are simply left to die in the woods or abandoned to be shot or run over somewhere along rural roads.

So in answer to that good police officer's call for help five years ago, we went to North Carolina to see if we could stop the shooting and gassing. We had already created a special program called Community Animal Project (CAP) after PETA discovered that the Virginia/North Carolina border region was among the worst in the country for overpopulation and outright neglect of dogs and cats. In most communities, dogs were kept chained outdoors in all weather with little or no shelter, and there were no effective cruelty investigations and no ready access to spay/neuter services. The pounds were horrible, with sick and injured animals left to languish in their own waste with no vet care.

Through CAP, we began pushing for reforms in several North Carolina counties, including Bertie, Northampton, and Hertford, urging them to institute humane euthanasia procedures, adoptions services (they had no adoption programs!), spay/neuter services, 24/7 emergency vet services, and rabies clinics.

We managed to make arrangements with these counties to pick up and humanely euthanize animals - many of whom were suffering from illness, injuries, aggressive behavior, and old age. Not only were these animals unwanted, but in most cases they were unfit or adoption. And every single one was slated for a horrific and painful death.

We stepped in and changed that. And we also found homes for some of the animals, including 360 dogs in the past year alone - even though we do not run an adoption center ourselves. We even built a cat shelter from the ground up (before we came, the cats were being dumped on the premises to run into the woods, breed, and die). And we promoted and performed sterilization at no cost for hundreds of dogs and cats who would have otherwise started producing litter after unwanted litter.

At the same time, PETA staff has been working to promote statewide spay/neuter legislation in North Carolina and funding for that program, as well as increased funding and standards of care for local animal-care facilities, and to raise awareness about the incredible tide of unwanted domestic animals throughout the state.

On June 15, things went terribly wrong. Two of our staff members working in North Carolina had put bodies of euthanized animals into a Dumpster. Obviously, this violates PETA policy. We have apologized profusely, in ads in the papers and on the air, for this hideous act. We immediately suspended the staffer in charge from duty. Some county officials, apparently afraid of public relations fallout, are now falsely denying that they knew euthanasia was taking place, but the facts will come out when this case goes to trial.

As you can well imagine, our opponents, those whose profits are made from raising and killing animals, have seized on this story and are doing their best to exploit it as much as they can. The Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) and the Foundation for Biomedical Progress, both front groups for industries in which billions of animals die every year, are running ads and opinion columns that promote a distorted view of what PETA does and this situation. That is no surprise, and most of the public can see through it.

Some well-intentioned people are also being swayed by the "no kill" shelter people who have criticized us, suggesting that we should have diverted funds and staff to care for all these thousands of animals whom no one wants. Their dream will remain a dream unless people do the dirty work and focus on prevention. That's because we're not talking about a few thousand animals, but more than 3 to 4 million animals who would have to be housed in some sort of compound each year in the United States. The number is too huge to comprehend. The average cost for a 3-day stay for a single animal properly cared for in a regular shelter is $105, not counting spaying. That means that it would take nearly $420,000,000 to care for these animals for just three days!

Sadly we deal with an ever-increasing number of complaints regarding cruelty cases involving no-kill shelters (in many instances, little more than "animal warehouses") where dogs and cats suffer for months and years on end waiting for an adoption that may never come.

Of course, the real solution to this crisis of too many animals for too few good homes is spaying and neutering, supported by appropriate local laws. For that reason, our far-reaching humane education programs promote spaying and neutering. For that reason, we operate a model mobile spay/neuter clinic, which has sterilized more than 25,000 animals, many of them free of charge or well below our own costs. For that reason, PETA runs aggressive campaigns encouraging people not to patronize puppy mills, pet shops, or breeders and to improve their local laws.

The silver lining to this tragic story is that it is opening a misbelieving and ignorant public's eyes to the plight of animals in such horrific shelters and to the lack of good homes in this country for all the animals who deserve one. In typical PETA fashion, we will do everything possible to make sure that this vital facet of the controversy gets covered as well.

I also want to add that we are continuing full-steam ahead with all our other important work to help animals. Nothing will deter us from fulfilling our mission to relieve the suffering of animals in factory farms, slaughterhouses, and fur ranches, in vivisection labs and circuses, and wherever else animals' pain and suffering goes unchecked and unheard.

Again, I want to apologize to you if this has caused you any concern or upset, and I want to assure you that we have launched an internal investigation into all relevant CAP policies and procedures to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again.

If you or anyone you know has any concerns about our work in North Carolina, please contact Allison Smith, Major Gifts Manager. Allison can be reached at 757-962-8356 or [email protected]. We want to be sure that everyone knows the facts, and we want to do everything we can to maintain your trust and support, not only as it relates to this situation, but for all our hard and effective work to help animals.

Very truly yours,
Ingrid E. Newkirk
President

P.S. We aren't including photos of what we found in North Carolina - the dilapidated "shelter," the horrible box used for gassing, the heart-wrenching images of sick and dying cats and dogs - but if anyone doubts how bad things really are there, we will send photos, or they can be seen on our Web site www.HelpingAnimals.com. We also show examples of some of the many "happy ending" stories for hundreds of animals we have been able to place in loving homes.

Originally Posted by TNR1

I do not recommend the PETA brochure for working with Feral Cats. If someone would like to order brochures on working with feral cats...Alley Cat Allies has some wonderful brochures that show compassion and do not recommend euthanasia. Simply because there is a CHANCE that a cat could die...does it make sense to recommend an automatic death sentence?? Even outdoor cats deserve to live.

http://www.alleycat.org/tools.html

Katie

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xomycatsxo..I removed the part regarding the recommendation regarding euthanization and moved it to the IMO as it wasn't truly pertinent to this discussion. PETA DOES recommend euthanization:

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=38

Because of the huge number of feral cats and the severe shortage of good homes, the difficulty of socialization, and the dangers lurking where most feral cats live, it may be necessary and the most compassionate choice to euthanize feral cats. You can ask your veterinarian to do this or, if your local shelter uses an injection of sodium pentobarbital, take the cats there. Please do not allow the prospect of euthanasia to deter you from trapping cats. If you leave them where they are, they will almost certainly die a painful death. A painless injection is far kinder than any fate that feral cats will meet if left to survive on their own.

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This is directly from their website. If you are a PETA member..you should be aware of what they say. In fact, I just posted in the IMO this thread:

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62463

As someone who volunteers with Alley Cat Allies which is the leading Feral Cat advocate group, I can assure you that I am not making this up. Fact is...PETA only advocates TNR under some very restrictive circumstances or they require a person to take the cat into their home. We aren't talking about stray cats...we are talking about cats that are feral...they have lived their entire lives outdoors and although SOME can be socialized, it is impractical to expect every person to home 1 or several feral cats. or for sanctuaries to be build to contain all the feral cats that live throughout the USA. Oftentimes, the most humane way to work with feral cats is to provide TNR...that is trapping, neutering/spaying and returning them back to their colony. I have volunteered at the feral cat clinic for over 2 years. In that amount of time, we have spayed/neutered thousands of feral cats...a majority were not sick, were not injured. These cats were brought into the clinic to be spayed/neutered, provided a rabies shot and then returned outdoors. The caretakers always report these cats do incredibly well after being spayed/neutered. Addtionally, ask yourself this question..if life was sooo bad for feral cats..then why are there so many?? We aren't talking about strays that are abandoned by owners..we are talking about pure feral cats.

Here is a post from Nathan Winograd who is a respected feral cat advocate:

http://www.bestfriends.org/archives/...erals.html#one

The entire Best Friends Forum on this can be found here:

http://www.bestfriends.org/archives/forums/ferals.html

Katie

I guess we could go back and forth on this. I look at it very differently. As you obviously know, a feral cat's fate is not good.. the majority do not live long. I believe it was Hissy (may not be, but pretty sure) who even said that of all the time she's been doing this - only 1 cat has lived to an old age. She told me this when preparing me for the heartache that comes along w/ this type of rescue work. I think Peta's stance on euthanasia is that these animals are going to die an awful death (the facts are the facts about the average life of an indoor and outdoor cat) if they're left out in the wild.. that it may be more humane to euthanize them, if not adoptable. Do I agree.. part of me, absolutely. Could I ever personally do it or even witness this --- no, but I also hate to put them right back out there where I know their fate could be at the hands of some cruel human, a wild animal, a tire - the list goes on. I definitely see your point but I definitely see Peta's. I'm sure many look at putting them back out into the wild is just as horrible- I think everyone is going to have their own passionate, and strongly convicted opinions about this.

However, since I've never heard of the organization you're talking about (I'm new to feral rescue, as you know) - I will check them out as well (I know you mentioned them to me in another thread).

In any case - I don't think Peta believing they are saving a cat from a tragic death, makes them bad whatsoever.. it's what you believe. Of course we want to let them loose, know we're not responsible for their death, but again, I don't blame someone for thinking that tragically, it's better than the death they'll face being outdoors in the wild.

Well...I'm glad you were at least open to the other side...it is true that feral cats do not live as long as indoor domesticated cats...but the way I see it..better 1 to 2 years of a spayed/neutered, cared for outdoor life...then no life at all. What these groups that advocate "humane" euthanization forget..is that sometimes...many times, it isn't humane (I just won't go into it..but I've witnessed the "crossing the bridge" from a shelter perspective..and it wasn't the peaceful crossing I had hoped for). Which is why I don't advocate euthanization for feral cats under MOST circumstances...are there exceptions?? Absolutely. But I just can't agree with the restrictions that PETA has in place.

I wish you could have been at the No More Homeless Pets Conference last year...that is where I met Nathan Winograd. He is such an amazing person with such a heart for all animals. I really suggest reading the link I provided earlier for the entire Best Friends Forum with Nathan Winograd and since you are new at all this...I want you to have some hope. Here are 2 links to where TNR is working:

http://www.bestfriends.org/allthegoo.../ferals2_3.cfm

http://www.alleycat.org/wheretnr.html

If anything will put a smile on your face...these reports of TNR will. I'm going to alter my earlier post and just post the link to the Nathan Winograd thread that I listed earlier so as not to take up a lot of bandwidth.

Seriously...any TNR questions you may have...feel free to PM me. I am at the Alley Cat Allies TNR clinic every month so if I don't know the answer...there are several caretakers I can reach out to.

Katie

Originally Posted by maane1005

ok well im new here. and no i dont hve a cat yet. i'm planning to adopt one though. but i do hve a question for people who knows a lot about cats.

when i adopt a cat should i adopt one from a shelter or a pet store like petsmart??

well i hope u guys can answer my question so that i know wat to do

. thnx and

4 now

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Shelter shelter shelter! There are so many kitties that need loving homes and the fact that you are asking about what would be best implies that you only have your kitties needs at heart and so would make a wonderful meowmy!

Ageed- I will look at those links. I do not know of euthanasia being inhumane (or a chance of it not being humane). And you're right- I don't have the experience but what I do know is it has got to be very depressing- because no matter what, chances are that most of these cats will not survive, no matter how great the intentions. So obviously the best bet is getting the cat adoptable. Who knows, maybe if enough people do this rescue work - it will crack down dramatically on the numbers of cats in the shelters, which I think would eventually lead to less and less ferals. The only way to do that is educate..so at least there, we're on the same page.

As soon as I get the little one down for a nap, I will go to those links- thanks for sharing them.

Teshia

Originally Posted by TNR1

Well...I'm glad you were at least open to the other side...it is true that feral cats do not live as long as indoor domesticated cats...but the way I see it..better 1 to 2 years of a spayed/neutered, cared for outdoor life...then no life at all. What these groups that advocate "humane" euthanization forget..is that sometimes...many times, it isn't humane (I just won't go into it..but I've witnessed the "crossing the bridge" from a shelter perspective..and it wasn't the peaceful crossing I had hoped for). Which is why I don't advocate euthanization for feral cats under MOST circumstances...are there exceptions?? Absolutely. But I just can't agree with the restrictions that PETA has in place.

I wish you could have been at the No More Homeless Pets Conference last year...that is where I met Nathan Winograd. He is such an amazing person with such a heart for all animals. I really suggest reading the link I provided earlier for the entire Best Friends Forum with Nathan Winograd and since you are new at all this...I want you to have some hope. Here are 2 links to where TNR is working:

http://www.bestfriends.org/allthegoo.../ferals2_3.cfm

http://www.alleycat.org/wheretnr.html

If anything will put a smile on your face...these reports of TNR will. I'm going to alter my earlier post and just post the link to the Nathan Winograd thread that I listed earlier so as not to take up a lot of bandwidth.

Seriously...any TNR questions you may have...feel free to PM me. I am at the Alley Cat Allies TNR clinic every month so if I don't know the answer...there are several caretakers I can reach out to.

Katie

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So obviously the best bet is getting the cat adoptable.

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There are countless ferals out there....some estimates claim millions of them. If there aren't people adopting the cats that came from domesticated homes...then how do you or PETA or cats indoors plan to address that? It is too simple to paint with broad strokes that say..."If a cat is adoptable it lives, if it isn't..it dies"...which is what the overall message is. I do not believe we can base a cat's worth or life based on a "perceived" horrendous death.

Katie

And all I'm saying is that "perceived" notion was even conveyed to me by another mod here- so obviously there's truth to it. I mean, if you ask every person in this world if they've had a cat or known a cat that has been killed or severely injured by being outdoors- 9 times out of 10 - you'll hear several stories- from just one person! It's a fact that cats are at danger being outdoors. Of course we'd like an easy answer like I suggested - and even though there isn't- I am going to think big because it's what motivates me. I'm sure it motivates you just the same. In all actuality- I don't think I could put a cat down either.. I think I'd want to let it go and live its life - but I'd know I'm just letting it back out there to chance a horrible death. That's why in my original post I mentioned letting the cats right back out (if I did trap). I would feel guilty no matter what I did.. as much as trapping is a win/win for everyone, it definitely must not feel that way all the time.

You and I are on the same page no matter what- we want to help these cats.. so no matter what area's we agree 'not to agree' on - the most important thing is to join forces and do what we can to contribute to their welfare and safety. I did not say I 100% agree w/ Peta.. I just don't look down on them because I think their intentions are incredible and I think what they do for animal rights is amazingl Their heart is in the right place and obviously when someone has such strong convictions- there are bound to be disagreements.

I still have not looked at those links, but will shortly.

Originally Posted by TNR1

There are countless ferals out there....some estimates claim millions of them. If there aren't people adopting the cats that came from domesticated homes...then how do you or PETA or cats indoors plan to address that? It is too simple to paint with broad strokes that say..."If a cat is adoptable it lives, if it isn't..it dies"...which is what the overall message is. I do not believe we can base a cat's worth or life based on a "perceived" horrendous death.

Katie

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This is the page I think you will most benefit from initially:

http://www.alleycat.org/resources_care.html

Lots of good information on TNR.

Also..you may want to join the Feral Friends Network:

http://www.alleycat.org/feral_friends.html

Katie

Originally Posted by xomycatsxo

I did not say I 100% agree w/ Peta.. I just don't look down on them because I think their intentions are incredible and I think what they do for animal rights is amazingl Their heart is in the right place and obviously when someone has such strong convictions- there are bound to be disagreements.

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Take a look at this thread and some of the other sides of PETA.

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...highlight=PETA

But debating this topic belongs in IMO

As soon as the baby goes down for his nap I have a list of things I need to do, and looking at these sites is definitely one of them.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by TNR1

This is the page I think you will most benefit from initially:

http://www.alleycat.org/resources_care.html

Lots of good information on TNR.

Also..you may want to join the Feral Friends Network:

http://www.alleycat.org/feral_friends.html

Katie

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awww thnx u guys for all the info. im really happy and trust me, youll b seeing more of me around here