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People are looting afetr that terrible hurricane - Page 4

post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
I don't think that you are hearing what is REALLY going on. The police ARE NOT shooting. The police have not shot anyone!!! The looters have taken over.
As far as a looter getting into a hospital and just letting them take what they want.......tell that to the mother of the child who needs the medicine that the looter wants to get high with.

And yes, I have lived through this minus the flooding. It is chaos and terrifying but when I saw the National Guard roll in, I knew we were ok as long as we (the citizens) continued to be civilized.
But what is the mother of the child still doing in New Orleans? Is it because we've had to halt rescue efforts to start a war with the looters? i don't think that's fair to anyone. The looters will get what's coming to them. AFTER the whole city has been evacuated.

Like I've said about a billion times: looting isn't right. We will need to punish these people for their actions when the dust has settled.

But the whole city has been destroyed. It's never going to be the same again. No one will be there for months. Everything, homes, drugs, hospial equipments, jewelry, electronics, food, clothes, even beer and liquor (I have heard of liquor stores being looted) will need to be completely replaced in the coming months as the city recovers. The stuff being looted now won't be of use to anyone being evacuated anyway. Just let it go. Get people out, pump the flood waters out and rebuild. The looters are shooting because they feel threatened by the porspect of martial law and the fact that anyone can freely shoot them. Get the innocents out, deal with the looters later. YES, they need to be dealt with. YES, what they're doing is terrible. However, there is not even a remote possibility of organized society being possible in New Orleans right now. Everything is in total disarray. Just get people out. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Also, has anyone noticed the number of white people who took things from stores that were regaled as sort of like McGuyver-style hero-survivor-action stars, while all of the pictures of looters portray young black males? What IS IT with our obsession to criminalize this demographic? That is partly what makes me want to sympathize with them. If I had lost everything, had no food or clean water, no home, no money AND my entire country was profiling me...yeah, I'd go a little nuts, too.

It's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination, but it's an explanation.
post #92 of 113
You just don't get it.

The mother and the child is still there BECAUSE of the looters. They are shooting at each other and now we have to stop them from killing everyone. They are not shooting because they are scared of marital law.......AGAIN the police HAVE NOT SHOT ANYONE!!!!!!!

But since looting shouldn't be their priority right now, I guess we should just let me shoot whoever they want to shoot with their LOOTED GUNS!!!!!!!!!

I give up - it doesn't seem that anyone will get through to you!

I just hope one day, you will grow and mature and be able to grasp the entire picture and not just one side of it. I also hope you never find yourself in the middle of a disaster with a looter pointing a LOOTED GUN in your face - and if you do, I hope the police don't turn their backs on you.
post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
But what is the mother of the child still doing in New Orleans? Is it because we've had to halt rescue efforts to start a war with the looters? i don't think that's fair to anyone. The looters will get what's coming to them. AFTER the whole city has been evacuated.

Like I've said about a billion times: looting isn't right. We will need to punish these people for their actions when the dust has settled.

But the whole city has been destroyed. It's never going to be the same again. No one will be there for months. Everything, homes, drugs, hospial equipments, jewelry, electronics, food, clothes, even beer and liquor (I have heard of liquor stores being looted) will need to be completely replaced in the coming months as the city recovers. The stuff being looted now won't be of use to anyone being evacuated anyway. Just let it go. Get people out, pump the flood waters out and rebuild. The looters are shooting because they feel threatened by the porspect of martial law and the fact that anyone can freely shoot them. Get the innocents out, deal with the looters later. YES, they need to be dealt with. YES, what they're doing is terrible. However, there is not even a remote possibility of organized society being possible in New Orleans right now. Everything is in total disarray. Just get people out. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Also, has anyone noticed the number of white people who took things from stores that were regaled as sort of like McGuyver-style hero-survivor-action stars, while all of the pictures of looters portray young black males? What IS IT with our obsession to criminalize this demographic? That is partly what makes me want to sympathize with them. If I had lost everything, had no food or clean water, no home, no money AND my entire country was profiling me...yeah, I'd go a little nuts, too.

It's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination, but it's an explanation.
If the looters would stop shooting at the rescue efforts maybe they could get out of there. I dont think you understand the severity when they are shooting at military helicopters. They have to state that as unsafe hostile fire..so what happend if they contiue..ignore the looters and contiue on..they have a coper loaded up..the hyrdrolics get shot out by a looter having fun and shooting up the scene....and it plumits to the earth..than what? than will you stop defendign the criminal? A man shot his SISTER over a bag of ICE! ICE!
post #94 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
You just don't get it.

The mother and the child is still there BECAUSE of the looters. They are shooting at each other and now we have to stop them from killing everyone. They are not shooting because they are scared of marital law.......AGAIN the police HAVE NOT SHOT ANYONE!!!!!!!

But since looting shouldn't be their priority right now, I guess we should just let me shoot whoever they want to shoot with their LOOTED GUNS!!!!!!!!!

I give up - it doesn't seem that anyone will get through to you!

I just hope one day, you will grow and mature and be able to grasp the entire picture and not just one side of it. I also hope you never find yourself in the middle of a disaster with a looter pointing a LOOTED GUN in your face - and if you do, I hope the police don't turn their backs on you.
Although I do not wish that situation on her. It would be an eye opener, it is sad that rescue efforts have to be halted because of the looters But i would be even more horrified to hear of a helicopter full of people going down, or blowing up because of the firing at the helicopter.

Waiting to hear from my dear friend who is helping efforts in moving animals...i surely do not hope he was threatened.....
post #95 of 113
The truck they hijacked was going to a functioning hospital. The medivac helicopter that wouldn't land because of an "armed mob" outside of a hospital this morning was trying to evacuate people.

This has escalated to include a lot more than abandoned stores. Because they were allowed to do it from the beginning, some of the gangs have become more brazen. Because heads were turned away while they looted the gun stores (stolen guns, BTW, are still illegal), they are now armed and dangerous. So dangerous that evacuation and rescue operations aren't safe. (Just what is the point of shooting at a helicopter that is trying to save people??? That has nothing to do with desperation!) This is a definite cause and effect! If the cops/military had actually been shooting at the looters, I could *maybe* concede the point of them being scared of this martial law thing. But they haven't.
post #96 of 113
According to this blog:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

Of someone in New Orleans, the police are both ineffective and have been looting a fair amount themselves.
post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
The truck they hijacked was going to a functioning hospital. The medivac helicopter that wouldn't land because of an "armed mob" outside of a hospital this morning was trying to evacuate people.

This has escalated to include a lot more than abandoned stores. Because they were allowed to do it from the beginning, some of the gangs have become more brazen. Because heads were turned away while they looted the gun stores (stolen guns, BTW, are still illegal), they are now armed and dangerous. So dangerous that evacuation and rescue operations aren't safe. (Just what is the point of shooting at a helicopter that is trying to save people??? That has nothing to do with desperation!) This is a definite cause and effect! If the cops/military had actually been shooting at the looters, I could *maybe* concede the point of them being scared of this martial law thing. But they haven't.
They were not allowed. Who was going to stop them? Most of the National Guard is in Iraq.
post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScamperFarms
If the looters would stop shooting at the rescue efforts maybe they could get out of there. I dont think you understand the severity when they are shooting at military helicopters. They have to state that as unsafe hostile fire..so what happend if they contiue..ignore the looters and contiue on..they have a coper loaded up..the hyrdrolics get shot out by a looter having fun and shooting up the scene....and it plumits to the earth..than what? than will you stop defendign the criminal? A man shot his SISTER over a bag of ICE! ICE!
Ok, I did not know (I have no TV and did not have a paper until like 5 minutes ago) that the lootershad escalated to hampering the rescue efforts. I had to confirm it for myself and it took time, armed with a spooty internet connection only, to find that info. It has no escalated beyond what I had percieved was just some gangs of young people walking around stealing things. I'm sorry for not realizing that sooner.

it only slightly changed my view on things, however. I just feel like there HAS GOT to be a better way than to declare martial law. I'm sorry if you diasagree with me, but in my own moral views, I can't excuse hurting someone for any reason. Shoot my fiancee n the face, and I'm sorry, but were in a naormal state of mind (which I couldn't guarantee), I wouldn't be able to hurt you back. I am completely mistrustful of all things military and martial law because of these views. It's a lot for most people to understand and it's a little extreme and I apologize for coming way out of left field, but that's what I believe in. So that has been the background for my views.

Shooting these people, I don't care WHAT they're doing would be unacceptable. It's every bit as unacceptable for them to be shooting.

However, I don't think every looter in the Gul Coast region has the barrel of a gun pointing at a helicopter. It seems to me like protecting a search and rescue would be PART of a search and rescue. If the looters come after your mission, by all means, save who you are saving. But, to dispatch 1500 cops, probably some to pretty remote locations, just to babysit the looters?

I concede you the point that the looted guns being shot at random things, like helicopters, needs to be dealt with. I just don't think that's everyone. I am going to venture a guess that the majority of these looters can be left alone for now and dealt with later. A lot of the ones we were worried about probably stopped looting and brought back food to their families. I just want to see them do whatever is in their power to get people out. Even if that means ignoring some looters.

And as for you, Catherine, you're being rude. Your last comment was personal
post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
But what is the mother of the child still doing in New Orleans? Is it because we've had to halt rescue efforts to start a war with the looters? i don't think that's fair to anyone. The looters will get what's coming to them. AFTER the whole city has been evacuated.

Like I've said about a billion times: looting isn't right. We will need to punish these people for their actions when the dust has settled.

But the whole city has been destroyed. It's never going to be the same again. No one will be there for months. Everything, homes, drugs, hospial equipments, jewelry, electronics, food, clothes, even beer and liquor (I have heard of liquor stores being looted) will need to be completely replaced in the coming months as the city recovers. The stuff being looted now won't be of use to anyone being evacuated anyway. Just let it go. Get people out, pump the flood waters out and rebuild. The looters are shooting because they feel threatened by the porspect of martial law and the fact that anyone can freely shoot them. Get the innocents out, deal with the looters later. YES, they need to be dealt with. YES, what they're doing is terrible. However, there is not even a remote possibility of organized society being possible in New Orleans right now. Everything is in total disarray. Just get people out. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Also, has anyone noticed the number of white people who took things from stores that were regaled as sort of like McGuyver-style hero-survivor-action stars, while all of the pictures of looters portray young black males? What IS IT with our obsession to criminalize this demographic? That is partly what makes me want to sympathize with them. If I had lost everything, had no food or clean water, no home, no money AND my entire country was profiling me...yeah, I'd go a little nuts, too.

It's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination, but it's an explanation.
Yes, by all means, let's just let the looters have a field day. When they are shooting and endangering innocent people and they are doing this, they have got to be stopped. They are interrupting the rescue effort for Gods sake.
I wonder how bad you would want to go in there, as a member of the rescue effort, if you had people shooting at you. Read my lips or read my words, the looters and shooter are the BAD GUYS. Please tell me why you insist on defending scum like them.
post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Ok, I did not know (I have no TV and did not have a paper until like 5 minutes ago) that the lootershad escalated to hampering the rescue efforts. I had to confirm it for myself and it took time, armed with a spooty internet connection only, to find that info. It has no escalated beyond what I had percieved was just some gangs of young people walking around stealing things. I'm sorry for not realizing that sooner.

it only slightly changed my view on things, however. I just feel like there HAS GOT to be a better way than to declare martial law. I'm sorry if you diasagree with me, but in my own moral views, I can't excuse hurting someone for any reason. Shoot my fiancee n the face, and I'm sorry, but were in a naormal state of mind (which I couldn't guarantee), I wouldn't be able to hurt you back. I am completely mistrustful of all things military and martial law because of these views. It's a lot for most people to understand and it's a little extreme and I apologize for coming way out of left field, but that's what I believe in. So that has been the background for my views.

Shooting these people, I don't care WHAT they're doing would be unacceptable. It's every bit as unacceptable for them to be shooting.

However, I don't think every looter in the Gul Coast region has the barrel of a gun pointing at a helicopter. It seems to me like protecting a search and rescue would be PART of a search and rescue. If the looters come after your mission, by all means, save who you are saving. But, to dispatch 1500 cops, probably some to pretty remote locations, just to babysit the looters?

I concede you the point that the looted guns being shot at random things, like helicopters, needs to be dealt with. I just don't think that's everyone. I am going to venture a guess that the majority of these looters can be left alone for now and dealt with later. A lot of the ones we were worried about probably stopped looting and brought back food to their families. I just want to see them do whatever is in their power to get people out. Even if that means ignoring some looters.

And as for you, Catherine, you're being rude. Your last comment was personal

I will agree with you that it is not every single looter out there. and that is also not probably the majority. But with more and more mobs rising it will be more and more people. It is really sad that its coming to this. It truly is.

As for Marshall law...something had to be done. Is it extereme indeed it is. But so is whats going on. I trust the military but that is because I grew up with my father A Marine Sniper. who will by the way not harm a hair on anyones head..unless you threaten his family.

All of that being said. I just got word from my friend. He was threatened by looters when he got to town to help the animals. Him and his brother carry old Winchester riffles they stood firm and were left alone no shots fired.
post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Shooting these people, I don't care WHAT they're doing would be unacceptable. It's every bit as unacceptable for them to be shooting.

I have to disagree on this point. I believe it is perfectly acceptable for the military & police to shoot at a looter aka criminal who is shooting at rescuers, innocent victims of the hurricane, or at the police & military personnel. A criminal starts firing a gun, they should expect shots to be fired back at them.
post #102 of 113
I have no problem if the items being taken are necessary. I've seen them taking as many pampers as they can carry, and food, water, and dry clothes for their families. What other way do they have, realistically? Do you want them to build rafts out of corpses and row to an open store so that they can buy things legitimately? The foods will go bad anyway, and if that water's in there at all, it will be a great while until they can open with any type of sanitary health standards. In that situation, I see myself doing the same thing. If my home is gone, I have no job anymore, I have no idea where my next meal will be from, or if or when, realistically, I will have somewhere to live, I would most likely steal food to survive. It is instinct. I need this to live, there is no alternative at the moment, opportunity presents itself, so I take it. Are theose of you so against the stealing of even the most basic comoddities that we take for granted every day saying that in the throes of starvation, you'd just stiffen your lip and stick by your morals 100% if you were one of the worse off, stranded miles from help, and you saw a food store? You'd die. With morals. That is all that means.

If I had a food store, in that situation, and filthy water that reeked of death was up to my thighs, and everything I had outside of that was lost, and I had no idea when my area would be returning to normal, I'd let people in, and ask only that they not destroy fodd that could be used by others, and that they not destroy anything that I could possibly use to rebuild my business. In all honesty, they will be out of comission for a while. Most of their client base is gone/washed away. Who would honestly go out of their way to drive into a lake of filth and corpses to buy groceries of questionable health value? I couldnt eat it all, and many people would need it more than I did at that point.

However, the looting of luxury items (tvs, stereos, etc) is the lowest of lows, imo. and brings a question to mind: where are they taking all of that stuff?!

A far more important problem is getting food and water to the people stranded on rooftops and in apt. buildings. It would be terrible to live through the hurricane and the flood just to starve in a window overlooking your destroyed neighborhood, alone with your thoughts and a feeling of loss. I'm fairly certain that some of those in the water are suicides.

So long as they are not hindering rescue in any way, are not harassing anyone, and are not stealing tons of CDs and TVs or stealing the clothes off people's backs, I see no problem with them.
post #103 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
And as for you, Catherine, you're being rude. Your last comment was personal
My last comment was not ment to be rude but ment to be an eye opener. I DO NOT wish that one you or anyone else for that matter. My point was to get you to actually put yourself in a situation like that. We deal with hurricanes every year and about once every 10 years we have a horrible disaster and have to survive. When order is not kept, crimes escalate and innocent people are hurt or killed.

I guess maybe it's hard for some people to grasp if they have never had to live and survive through a natural disaster where looting goes on and the NG and Military are called in with martial law put in place.
post #104 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Ok, I did not know (I have no TV and did not have a paper until like 5 minutes ago) that the lootershad escalated to hampering the rescue efforts. I had to confirm it for myself and it took time, armed with a spooty internet connection only, to find that info. It has no escalated beyond what I had percieved was just some gangs of young people walking around stealing things. I'm sorry for not realizing that sooner.

it only slightly changed my view on things, however. I just feel like there HAS GOT to be a better way than to declare martial law. I'm sorry if you diasagree with me, but in my own moral views, I can't excuse hurting someone for any reason. Shoot my fiancee n the face, and I'm sorry, but were in a naormal state of mind (which I couldn't guarantee), I wouldn't be able to hurt you back. I am completely mistrustful of all things military and martial law because of these views. It's a lot for most people to understand and it's a little extreme and I apologize for coming way out of left field, but that's what I believe in. So that has been the background for my views.

Shooting these people, I don't care WHAT they're doing would be unacceptable. It's every bit as unacceptable for them to be shooting.

However, I don't think every looter in the Gul Coast region has the barrel of a gun pointing at a helicopter. It seems to me like protecting a search and rescue would be PART of a search and rescue. If the looters come after your mission, by all means, save who you are saving. But, to dispatch 1500 cops, probably some to pretty remote locations, just to babysit the looters?

I concede you the point that the looted guns being shot at random things, like helicopters, needs to be dealt with. I just don't think that's everyone. I am going to venture a guess that the majority of these looters can be left alone for now and dealt with later. A lot of the ones we were worried about probably stopped looting and brought back food to their families. I just want to see them do whatever is in their power to get people out. Even if that means ignoring some looters.

And as for you, Catherine, you're being rude. Your last comment was personal
Boy, I am so thankful you aren't in charge anywhere. The bad guys would, definitely, be in control.]
Don't be to sure you couldn't defend yourself. The instinct for survival is the strongest we have besides a mother protecting your young. Believe you me if someone was going to harm your child you would kill them without a thought. Or maybe not, maybe you would just let them kill your child and say, "I am a pacifist" Wow, I can't even get my brain around that.
If we didn't have a military can you imagine what the US would be like.
Do you really think you would even have a country without the military?
I am sorry but posts like this inspire rudeness in me also.
post #105 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonOddity042
So long as they are not hindering rescue in any way, are not harassing anyone, and are not stealing tons of CDs and TVs or stealing the clothes off people's backs, I see no problem with them.

That's the problem it has reached that point. I strongly believe the reason for this is because it was not controlled from the beginning and the situation and severity of the looting behavior has escalated.
post #106 of 113
So, Lioness, we just let the looters keep on doing their thing huh?
And when the rescuers say, "hey I am not going in there to get shot at by looters" well then you yourself will go down and brave the looters to rescue people because God forbid, we can't hurt the poor looters. That is totally insane.
post #107 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by milopixie
That's the problem it has reached that point. I strongly believe the reason for this is because it was not controlled from the beginning and the situation and severity of the looting behavior has escalated.
It was not controlled from the beginning because they couldn't control it. Personally, I woudl think they should have made an organized effort to give all the food out from those stores, because that food perished any way without electricity.
They have a horrible mess down there, by the sound of it, and it's not getting any better.
post #108 of 113
They have a horrible mess down there, by the sound of it, and it's not getting any better.

It doesn't sound like it is getting better, you are correct in saying it is getting worse!!
I heard on the radio & tv (today) that looters who broke-into a hospital stealing medicine, etc. also raped some nurses. Very nice!! So, what's the logic behind that?! Some of these people have lost all their humanity. I live in NY and not that 9/11 is a good "apples to apples" comparison...but...during that time, I don't recall stories of looting, rape, gunfire, etc. People MUST ban together during crisis or chaos will prevail!!
post #109 of 113
Friends, I'm staying out of this discussion, but I do need to remind everyone to keep it friendly. It's getting rather heated in here, and bordering on personal. There's obviously a need to "agree to disagree" rather than ratcheting up the rhetoric on both sides any more. Please and thanks.
post #110 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
They were not allowed. Who was going to stop them? Most of the National Guard is in Iraq.
Actually, more than 60% of the Guard is still stateside. Troops are arriving in NO at a rate of 1400 per day. The governor has requested 40,000 troops to assist in the cleanup of the state, and has been assured she will get them and if she needs more she just needs to ask. You really should do some research before spouting off with unsubstantiated comments like that.

As far as it's not getting better? God, how fatalistic! It is getting better. There are more rescuers and troops arriving all the time. There are more supplies there and coming. There are hundreds of busses on the way, as long as the looters don't hijack them. There are already busses arriving at the Houston Astrodome with refugees. And it's not getting better?
post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
So, Lioness, we just let the looters keep on doing their thing huh?
And when the rescuers say, "hey I am not going in there to get shot at by looters" well then you yourself will go down and brave the looters to rescue people because God forbid, we can't hurt the poor looters. That is totally insane.
No one should be hurting anyone.

And I am very sorry for you that you can't comprehend something larger than this insane world full of guns and wars and violence and killing.

Remember, all of the people who have changed this world so fundamentally have been looked at as being completely insane. MLK, Gandhi...it starts with one. And if you don't want to belong to my system of belief, it's fine.

Just have respect for those who see things differently than you do.

And Catherine, have you not read the part of this thread where I talked about how my home was destroyed completely by an F5 tornado when I was a young child? Because it was, and there were cops and looting and mob rule and nowhere for us to go. So please don't make ssumptions that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
post #112 of 113
I just heard this morning that the governor of Louisiana has give the ok
for the troops to SHOOT TO KILL anyone that is violently hampering the rescue effort.
There are armed gangs of men roaming the streets down there.
There have been numerous rapes and murders.
I do not feel that we should give in to people like these.
There comes a time when force must be met by greater force.
Why, then is mankinds instinct for suvival the strongest instinct we have?
It is that way for a purpose.
I would fight for myself and my loved ones for our survival.
post #113 of 113
Lioness, in a perfect world no one would hurt each other but it will never be a perfect world in this lifetime. There is only 1 place that is like that.
As long as a person is fighting in self defense their conscience is clear as far as I am concerned.
But if someone comes up to me or my loved ones and is going to kill me or them I will fight. You may want to lay down and die but not me.
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