Discussion of part-pedigree kitties in domestic populations

iceover · Aug 24, 2005

My cat is a mutt, adopted from a shelter at a baby. I specifically spent half a summer looking for a grey kitten because I am very enamoured of russian blue and chartreaux cats. While I by no means want to refer to my cat as pedigreed in any way, or even as a mix, I did some casual research on his coloring and characteristics as he has some odd characteristics for a DSH.

I am merely wondering if anyone can provide tidbits or comments in a discussion about pedigree traits that make their way into a domestic populations. As I live in an area chock full of pricey pedigree dogs, I find it entirely possible that some unaltered pedigree cats might be lurking around (good taste, of course, can never be taken as responsibility).

I thought I'd list some traits my kitty has, using him as an example of a kitty with a POSSIBLE pedigree ancestor:

1. Full grey except with some white spots on throat and belly- his fur had some faint tigerish stripings as a kitten which went away as he grew
2. I had the opportunity of seeing his entire litter which came into the shelter together- 3 solid greys- is grey coloring a dominant gene or is this a possible indication (along with others) of a pedigree ancestor?
3. Mauve paw pads- I have read this is a trait of Russian blues, where as domestic cats are more likely to have slate paws
4. Slate grey nose
5. Very long, lithe body with a smallish, distinctly shaped head
6. Yellow/green eyes (definetely NOT the green eyes of a russian blue)
7. Very soft fur- I don't know if he has the characteristic "double coat" but he is sure softer than most cats I've known
8. Faintly darker tail rings, which I have seen on many russian blue pure-breds in pictures

Any comments? Has anyone observed a pedigree cat interbreed with domestics and then observed pedigree traits in the subsequent generations? I just find this kind of interesting. Thanks!

beckiboo · Aug 25, 2005

My barn cat Spot, who was a brown tabby with a few orange spots, gave birth to a cat that looked quite siamese. He had siamese personality traits, too. As it turns out, a neighbor had a siamese who was unaltered. I think it is quite easy for mongrel or moggy cats to have traces of purebreds in them.

My current tortie foster gave birth to 1 long haired kitten, solid gray, one tortie, one orange stripe, one black, one brown tiger stripe with quite a few orange tiger patches. Try to figure the genetics on that mix!

iceover · Aug 25, 2005

That's interesting! A mixed siamese population seems like it would have a potential for some unusual looking cats.

Cat genetics are so interesting- I've read that almost all calicos are female and those that are male are like 99.9% sterile. Apparently coat color is more than just a "skin deep" trait in a cat.

Really- what type of animal in the world has such a neat genetic mix as cats. Dogs are often pure bred or no more than a few generations removed, rodents are nearly always pure mixing of types. But cats have the unique situtaion of being distinctly mixed with a very likely addition of a purebred or even wild line once in a while to shake the genes up a bit and give cats such varied appearances and tempraments.

tailsoluv · Aug 27, 2005

iceover said:
My cat is a mutt, adopted from a shelter at a baby. I specifically spent half a summer looking for a grey kitten because I am very enamoured of russian blue and chartreaux cats. While I by no means want to refer to my cat as pedigreed in any way, or even as a mix, I did some casual research on his coloring and characteristics as he has some odd characteristics for a DSH.

I am merely wondering if anyone can provide tidbits or comments in a discussion about pedigree traits that make their way into a domestic populations. As I live in an area chock full of pricey pedigree dogs, I find it entirely possible that some unaltered pedigree cats might be lurking around (good taste, of course, can never be taken as responsibility).

First, something needs to be explained about pedigreed cats. These is no such thing as a "purebred" cat which spawned a domestic. In fact, it is totally the other way around. Almost all pedigreed cats are developed from the domestic population. Cat breeds are created by people who wish to perpetuate a certain trait or traits founds in cats which have been born into the domestic population. Virtually EVERY breed is based on a genetic mutation which is not lethal - whether it is a mutation of coloring, coat length, coat texture, tail mutation, ear mutation, etc.

While you state that good taste cannot be taken for responsibility, it should be pointed out that you will not find someone breeding pedigreed cats who allows his cats access to the outside so they may be randomly tagged by an unregistered cat in the neighborhood. Unlike dogs, cats don't need to be walked nor tied up outside the house for exercise. Unless a pedigreed cat in heat accidentally escaped to the great outside and got bred before the owner could capture her, or unless a breeder happens to have a domestic which has not yet been neutered who accidentally tags one of her girls or unless a breeder is using domestics in a breeding program to establish a new breed, you will not find domestics which are a mix of any known breeds of cat whatsoever.

I thought I'd list some traits my kitty has, using him as an example of a kitty with a POSSIBLE pedigree ancestor:

1. Full grey except with some white spots on throat and belly- his fur had some faint tigerish stripings as a kitten which went away as he grew

So you have a blue domestic shorthair with locketing. Typical domestic coloring.

2. I had the opportunity of seeing his entire litter which came into the shelter together- 3 solid greys- is grey coloring a dominant gene or is this a possible indication (along with others) of a pedigree ancestor?

Blue (or grey as you call it) is simply the dilute of black. It is a recessive to black and is absolutely NO indication of a pedigree ancestor. It is a very common color in cats.

3. Mauve paw pads- I have read this is a trait of Russian blues, where as domestic cats are more likely to have slate paws

You can attribute the cat's incorrect paw pad coloring to the locketing factor. Would have to look up the standard for Russian Blues, but I would sincerely doubt that this breed would be encouraged to have the wrong paw pad coloring for a blue cat.

4. Slate grey nose

Naturally - it's a grey cat.

5. Very long, lithe body with a smallish, distinctly shaped head

Domestics, just like people, have all different builds.

6. Yellow/green eyes (definetely NOT the green eyes of a russian blue)
7. Very soft fur- I don't know if he has the characteristic "double coat" but he is sure softer than most cats I've known

Your domestic shorthair has a double coat. Only Siamese and related breeds have a single coat. The dilute gene has a tendency to cause a very soft coat texture. The same is true of the color cream which is the dilute of red.

8. Faintly darker tail rings, which I have seen on many russian blue pure-breds in pictures

The darker tail rings are merely another example of poor coloring on a solid cat. The same is true if you can see tabby markings on pictures of Russians you have seen in pictures unless they are young cats. Solid body coloring is recessive to tabby. Solid coloring doesn't always mask the underlying tabby coat markings. The dilute gene does a poorer job of masking tabby than does dominant black. In the cat fancy, pedigreed blue cats (they don't expect mixed-breed cats to be bred for good coloring) are allowed to exhibit slight tabby barring until the age of 18 months as the kitten/adolescent coat grows out and the adult coat is established.

Any comments?

Nothing you have said about your cat is indicative of anything other than a blue domestic shorthair. Why does everyone figure it's important that their valuable sweet domestic has to have some form of a pedigree cat in the background lurking?

Has anyone observed a pedigree cat interbreed with domestics and then observed pedigree traits in the subsequent generations? I just find this kind of interesting. Thanks!

You will frequently see what you call pedigree traits in domestic cats since these same traits came from the domestic population in the first place.

Here are some examples - Siamese pattern is just that - pattern. It is a gene on the albino locus which causes restriction of color to the extremities (known as the "points"). It is merely a pattern - not a breed. It is called the Himalayan gene and such coloring is also found in cavies, rabbits and goats. They are no more Siamese than is a point restricted domestic shorthair. It is merely a pattern. The Siamese cat exhibits the pattern as described above but also has very distinctive personality, coat, body and head type.

Maine Coons are the pedigreed variety of domestic longhairs from a gene pool of longhairs in the New England area. Just because you happen to see a longhair brown tabby, it certainly doesn't mean that cat is a Maine Coon nor that it has any Maine Coon in it.

A longhaired cobby cat with a short face is not a Persian. A solid blue cat, depending on build, is neither a Russian Blue, Chartreux nor British Shorthair.

A cat born without a tail is not a Manx.

It should be pointed out also that every good or bad genetic health trait also comes from the domestic populace from which pedigreed cats were bred, so pedigreed cats are no more healthy nor sickly than domestics.

It is also incorrect to think that because you got a mixed-breed barn cat that its genetic diversity is any more than that of a pedigreed cat, since many feral and barn cats live in small communities and don't breed outside of those communities any more than a pedigreed cat is bred outside of the pedigreed populace.

Barb Amalfi

tailsoluv · Aug 27, 2005

Originally Posted by Beckiboo

My current tortie foster gave birth to 1 long haired kitten, solid gray, one tortie, one orange stripe, one black, one brown tiger stripe with quite a few orange tiger patches. Try to figure the genetics on that mix!

There is nothing even remotely difficult about the genetics of that mix, as you describe it. You have a tortie (which makes her genetically a black and a red non-tabby cat). I am supposing she is a shorthair, since you seem amazed that she gave birth to a longhair. Longhair is recessive, and she's carrying it. She is also carrying dilute since she produced a grey (blue). If she is, in fact, a tortie (and not a torbie, which is a tortoiseshell colored tabby cat), then she was bred by a tabby male (not a red tabby) who is either a longhair or carries longhair, who either is a dilute or carries dilute and who carries non-agouti (non-tabby) since you have a black kitten and a blue kitten. The solid blue and solid black may be either male or female, the red tabby is a male, the tortie is a female, and the torbie (which you describe as a brown tabby with red tabby patches) is a female.

Barb Amalfi

arlyn · Aug 27, 2005

Excellent posts Barb!

I have two such examples of moggies exhibiting pointed color patterns.
One is a seal point, has a single coat, but also has two black spots on her back, she has a compact, muscular body, much like a cinder block with legs, and her eyes are no where near the right shade of blue.
A true moggie in every sense, although I'm sure that someone with little to no experience with Siamese or Tonkinese would probably see a "purebred" cat.

The other is a bit more mixed up, Seal point mask and front paws, chocolate point hind paws, and a blue-lynx tail. She's double coated and medium haired, with a bottle-brush pouf tail.
Can't really tell what shade of blue her eye is as the pupil is dilated (glaucoma).

The rescue had her down as a Siamese mix, but I really doubt that.

I used to breed rats, actually, that were Himalayan, so I know how relatively easy it is to create a pointed coat pattern.

semiferal · Aug 28, 2005

Originally Posted by iceover

Cat genetics are so interesting- I've read that almost all calicos are female and those that are male are like 99.9% sterile. Apparently coat color is more than just a "skin deep" trait in a cat.

This is because the genes for red/orange and black coloring are found on the X chromosome. A female has 2 X chromosomes while a male has one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. So the only way a cat can have both orange and black coloring is to have two X chromosomes. This cat, therefore, would have to be either a genetically normal female or a genetically abnormal male. This abnormality is known as Klinefelter's Syndrome (at least in human medicine) and results in an animal with two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome. These individuals have male genitalia but do not undergo puberty in a normal fashion and are therefore almost always sterile. However, they are usually otherwise healthy and normal. So it's a myth that a male calico cat is worth a lot of money (they're not much use since they can't breed), but they can live perfectly healthy and happy lives as household companions.

Klinefelter's Syndrome is rare in itself, but calico/tortie/patch tabby male cats would be even more rare because a cat with Klinefelter's Syndrome would still not necessarily have the genes for both orange and black fur.

iceover · Aug 29, 2005

I expected a post like this.

I thought I made it clear that I was merely considering the concept and possibility of a purebred cat (yes, I know that a purebred is merely a concentrated line of domestics) getting into a domestic area and breeding its concentrated traits into a litter. I personally don't take the idea of a responsible breeder as a given- there are plenty of people out there who might sell an unaltered pedigree to anyone for the money- thus creating the possibility of an unaltered pedigree pet cat getting out into a domestic population. I'm not saying Russian Blues specifically, since I know they aren't widely bred, but there could be others.

tailsoluv says: "Why does everyone figure it's important that their valuable sweet domestic has to have some form of a pedigree cat in the background lurking?"

I don't think its important at all. I know my cat is a DSH- I merely offered him up as a possible example after I was reading about the breed standards for a Russian Blue and found more than one or two similar traits. If you re-read the beginning of my post I note he's a mutt AND that I by no means wanted to refer to him as any sort of pedigreed. I am really more interested in the possible concept of pedigree traits making their way into domestic populations and the possible results of this. I live in a tight-quartered suburban area that is a mix of rich business types and more middle class 20-somethings and students. There are a LOT of pedigree pets around- maybe even almost as many as non-pedigrees (just take a look around during the dog-walking hours!).

You do however, provide some interesting trait information. I know that in 99.5% of cases, non-certified pet cats are just domestic mixes. I've had all mutts and I'll take them any day- I think they have heartier constitutions in most cases. Plus they all snuggle the same in the end.

I'd still be curious though to hear about any other interesting cat genetics stories anyone might have.

gayef · Aug 29, 2005

It is safe to say that mistakes DO happen. It is also safe to say that intact, pedigreed cats can and do breed with domestic non-pedigreed cats and that their genetics are indeed passed through to the resulting kittens. As to whether or not these traits are displayed in the kittens depends on many things - and for that reason, it is next to impossible to say whether or not your grey kitten with mauve paw pads may or may not contain some or another specific breed's genetics. It is ~possible~ if 1) an intact cat of the breed specific to these traits gained access to another intact breed-specific cat and mated, 2) an intact breed-specific cat gained access to an intact domestic non-breed-specific cat who carries the genes necessary to produce breed-specific kittens and mated and 3) if an intact non-breed-specific cat carrying the genes necessary to produce kittens with breed-specific traits gained access to another non-breed-specific intact cat carrying the genes necessary to produce kittens with breed-specific traits. Are your eyes rolling back in your head yet? *grin*

iceover · Aug 29, 2005

Actually, I find it pretty interesting. I'm not much of a science person, but I've always been interested in "mixed genes". Animals, cats, even people. I've always thought that the highest physical attractiveness resulted from a half/half mix. (I had a friend who had a half-Polish, half-Chinese boyfriend and he was LOVELY)

Just interested in the same sort of thing with cats. Unlike breeding between two domestics, which generally carry a crazy amount of genetic possibilities, including kittens who look nothing like the parents, a purbred parent would limit, at least one one side, the amount of LIKELY inherited traits. I'm trying to imagine the possibilities (like say a big buff orange tabby crossed with a lithe, delicate siamese?)

Here's another question, specifically related to grey cats- I've noticed from reviewinga number of pictures of solid grey cats, an unlikely number seem to have white throat spots (my kitty among them)- is this a genetic thing? I've also read (in a cat cloning article) that some coat changes take place in the womb, could a white throat spot be related to that (I'm thinking maybe the chin of the kitten pressed in a fetal position to its chest influencing the coloring there?)

Anyone know about this?

semiferal · Sep 6, 2005

This is actually a pretty relevent question because of the issues that tend to crop up within specific populations.

For instance, crossed eyes can have a few different causes. It can be a sort of "lazy eye" related to muscle weakness, but there is also a kind of crossed eye that is associated with the Siamese breed. The distinction is important because the lazy eye type tends to respond very well to surgical treatment but the kind associated with Meezers usually does not, so it's obviously important to try to figure out which one you're dealing with before going ahead with invasive surgery. In the case of pedigreed Siamese cats or obvious mixes (colorpoint DSH with blue eyes from a random-bred population like a feral colony, for instance), it's easy to make the call that surgery isn't worth pursuing. But if it's less clear cut, then the vet has serious detective work to do to determine if the cat is likely to have significant Siamese heritage.

I had this come up in my own experience not long ago. I fostered an orange tabby mama cat and her three kittens - two patch tabbies and a lynx point. The lynx point kitten's eyes were crossed. In this situation, the vet felt it was a no-brainer - the kitten was pretty obviously a Siamese mix and so probably had the crossed eyes associated with Siamese cats, so surgery was not attempted. But if the litter had just consisted of her tabby DSH sisters and one of them had presented with crossed eyes, it would have been a tougher call.

tailsoluv · Sep 10, 2005

iceover said:
I'm trying to imagine the possibilities (like say a big buff orange tabby crossed with a lithe, delicate siamese?)

Assuming that it was a male orange tabby not carrying the pointed gene bred to a non-red Siamese, you would wind up with medium-size average looking typical DSH - the males being black or black tabbies (or dilutes thereof) and the females being torties or patched tabbies (torbies) or their dilutes. There could be no longhaired kittens because Siamese do not carry the longhair gene, so even if the male did, it would be irrelevant since long hair is a recessive.

Here's another question, specifically related to grey cats- I've noticed from reviewinga number of pictures of solid grey cats, an unlikely number seem to have white throat spots (my kitty among them)- is this a genetic thing?

No, this is recessive white spotting factor (locketing) - extremely common in all breeds and non-breeds and having nothing to do with the dilute blue (or cream) or with cloning. Even people who have been color breeding solid cats for years still wind up with some locketing or stray white hairs in their solid blacks, blues, chocolates, lavenders, cinnamons, fawns, reds and creams. In cats who have not been specifically bred for clear coat color it is exceedingly common.

Barb A.

anne g · Sep 10, 2005

Here's another question, specifically related to grey cats- I've noticed from reviewinga number of pictures of solid grey cats, an unlikely number seem to have white throat spots (my kitty among them)- is this a genetic thing?

How and when white lockets are formed is quite complicated. It is probably polygenic. The gene(s) for white are in the embryo cells, as are all the other color genes, but as the cells multiply and form the skin, the color is sort of diminshed and will not reach all the new cells. The cells closest to the neural crest along the back and migrate from there to the rest of the body. That is why cats have white spots on the belly, breast, paws etc, but rarely on the back. I would say a black cat with white spots on its back on its back only is rather rare, wouldn't you?

What I say here is only a very short summary of a very complicated explanation, and it is not scientifically correct. I would recommend that if you are really interested in cat color genetics - buy a genetics book or two and read, read, read...

Discussion of part-pedigree kitties in domestic populations

iceover

TCS Member

Thread starter

beckiboo

TCS Member

iceover

TCS Member

Thread starter

tailsoluv

TCS Member

tailsoluv

TCS Member

arlyn

TCS Member

semiferal

TCS Member

iceover

TCS Member

Thread starter

gayef

TCS Member

iceover

TCS Member

Thread starter

semiferal

TCS Member

tailsoluv

TCS Member

anne g

TCS Member

Latest Posts

Connect with us