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"JEW COUPLE?" Somebody Pick Up My Jaw! - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlecat
for anyone that has identified themselves as jewish in this thread, would it offend you If I intimated to my friends or husband, that i've recently been in a conversation with a jewish person?

It wouldn't offend me if any of you intimated to your significant others that you recently talked with a muslim.
Depends on the situation. If you used it as a description in an unrelated conversation I would find it a bit strange, yes. I.E. "I was talking to this Jewish woman today about our cats." If we were having some sort of discussion about religion/something related (this thread for example), I don't think it would be innappropriate.
post #62 of 86
Friends, some comments have been made in this thread that were uncalled for. Where they crossed the line, they have been deleted. I have left a lot, though, in the hope that someone else coming along, won't feel that the material they covered has been neglected and need to take us down that road again.

So, now I'm asking that we get away from the discussion of the general use of the word "Jew" and back to the incident that was posted, and remember it could have been any other ethnic/racial/religious identifier that was used -- which one is not the point.

My other request is that however much we disagree with each other, we refrain from personal attack, and such descriptors as "ignorant". If we can't keep it respectful, the thread may have to disappear for good.

Thanks.
post #63 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatrawfish
Depends on the situation. If you used it as a description in an unrelated conversation I would find it a bit strange, yes. I.E. "I was talking to this Jewish woman today about our cats." If we were having some sort of discussion about religion/something related (this thread for example), I don't think it would be innappropriate.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement. I have a friend, a woman I have known for 35 years who is very smart on an intelectual level, but ignorant at times. She will say: "My friend Janet at work, she's black, is having a party at her house Memorial Day weekend." During our conversation, I keep (or I once did) wonder when she is going to tie in the fact that Janet is black to the toipic at hand. It never happens. So I wonder, why does she even bring race into it, by friend is kind, loving person. What I have deducted for myself over the years is that my friend, probably has some sort of internalized fear of people different than her. I've heard her say the same sort of thing with Jews, Asians, etc. It is still a form of racism, ethnic-ism (lol)--the same idea I believe hold true with homophobia. I don't believe most people with homophobia hate me, or others like me, they just have this unrecognized fear.
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement. I have a friend, a woman I have known for 35 years who is very smart on an intelectual level, but ignorant at times. She will say: "My friend Janet at work, she's black, is having a party at her house Memorial Day weekend." During our conversation, I keep (or I once did) wonder when she is going to tie in the fact that Janet is black to the toipic at hand. It never happens. So I wonder, why does she even bring race into it, by friend is kind, loving person.
I think sometimes when people say things like "Oh, my friend Peter, he's black, or my friend Angela, she's gay", or whatever, its almost like they're trying to prove to themselves and to whomever they're talking to that they're not racist/homophobic. It seems to me to be sort of like a half-way step between racism and not-racism (which, uh, isn't a word, but go with me on this). Its sort of like, they're trying to interact with people of other races and are almost proud of themselves that they're doing it, but they still see that person, whether they're black, asian, gay, purple, whatever, as being "different" than them.
Okay, I guess if they were purple then they would really be different, huh?
Anyways, there's my $.02, dunno if that made any sense, but there ya go!
post #65 of 86
I totally agree with you both.
post #66 of 86
Oh for crying out loud. I think people are just people, imperfect and fallible.
Sometimes people say things and don't mean a darn thing. Some people read things into nothing. I think we are all to hung up on being PC. we are PC'd
to death. Geesh.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
Oh for crying out loud. I think people are just people, imperfect and fallible.
Sometimes people say things and don't mean a darn thing. Some people read things into nothing. I think we are all to hung up on being PC. we are PC'd
to death. Geesh.
I take it you are not Jewish. So, pershaps you can't understand as to why someone might be offended when described as a "Jew couple"?
post #68 of 86
As one belonging to the Jewish faith, one who has had to defend that faith an entire lifetime, one who's ancestors were slaughtered in the most horrific manner possible...YES, I absolutey, without a shadow of a doubt, take serious offense to the comment, "I would say that I can usually tell if someone is jewish or not without them telling me they are going to synagogue on Saturday...and I don't really hesitate when asking someone outright if they are a jew...

"And I feel a little cliche for stating "I have Jewish friends" but I thought it was appropriate in terms of illustrating my point." It is most definitely a cliche and it is most inappropriate in terms of illustrating your point....just my opinion of course.

Mom of Franz
I think some folks here are getting hung up on the word Jew. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying--Betty is a Jew or Howard is a Jew. Even if the waitress had written Jewish Couple on the check, it would have been just as offensive, because you are ID-ing someone. Fat Slob couple, or White Trash couple would have been just as offensive.


Thank-you

People are people. Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, whatever!!...black, white, pink with darn polka-dots...ALL HUMAN LIFE!! All people...breathing, human flesh with souls filled with dreams, hopes, fears, pain, happiness...life is life!!

That waitress was totally over the edge for identifying that couple in the manner she did!! Unfortunately, anti-Semitism is alive & well in the USA. I only hope that our children are educated enough to grow as adults with the thoughts that people are people no matter what color, race or religion.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement. I have a friend, a woman I have known for 35 years who is very smart on an intelectual level, but ignorant at times. She will say: "My friend Janet at work, she's black, is having a party at her house Memorial Day weekend." During our conversation, I keep (or I once did) wonder when she is going to tie in the fact that Janet is black to the toipic at hand. It never happens. So I wonder, why does she even bring race into it, by friend is kind, loving person. What I have deducted for myself over the years is that my friend, probably has some sort of internalized fear of people different than her. I've heard her say the same sort of thing with Jews, Asians, etc. It is still a form of racism, ethnic-ism (lol)--the same idea I believe hold true with homophobia. I don't believe most people with homophobia hate me, or others like me, they just have this unrecognized fear.
Excellent point.. Yes, that is a truly odd thing to do and one I think we have all encountered and gone "huh?"..Its just an irrelevant reference to make...
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by leesali
As one belonging to the Jewish faith, one who has had to defend that faith an entire lifetime, one who's ancestors were slaughtered in the most horrific manner possible...YES, I absolutey, without a shadow of a doubt, take serious offense to the comment, "I would say that I can usually tell if someone is jewish or not without them telling me they are going to synagogue on Saturday...and I don't really hesitate when asking someone outright if they are a jew...
I have to apologize for that comment, Leesali. As I attempted to explain, I really didn't know any better. I am around Jewish people on a daily basis, usually being the only non-Jew in the room at times. This is what I thought was a normal practice. Now, that I have seen yours and others positions on this particular point, I retract the comment and stand corrected.
I hope you take no further offense.

Quote:
"And I feel a little cliche for stating "I have Jewish friends" but I thought it was appropriate in terms of illustrating my point." It is most definitely a cliche and it is most inappropriate in terms of illustrating your point....just my opinion of course.
This I stated because that is "what everyone says" when discussing racial issues in general..Ie, "well, I have black friends" or whatever. It just sounded stupid and cliche and I wanted to make it known that I was aware of it..But as you can see in my point above, I felt I had no other way to explain myself in that context. Again, no offense meant.

Quote:

Mom of Franz
I think some folks here are getting hung up on the word Jew. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying--Betty is a Jew or Howard is a Jew. Even if the waitress had written Jewish Couple on the check, it would have been just as offensive, because you are ID-ing someone. Fat Slob couple, or White Trash couple would have been just as offensive.


Thank-you
I don't know if you saw the post where I wholeheartedly agreed with this statement as well. Used in the correct context, the word or label of someone isn't the thing that harms...so a from me as well...
This was really my whole point I was trying to make....

Quote:
People are people. Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, whatever!!...black, white, pink with darn polka-dots...ALL HUMAN LIFE!! All people...breathing, human flesh with souls filled with dreams, hopes, fears, pain, happiness...life is life!!
No argument from me here.. My sentiments exactly.

Quote:

That waitress was totally over the edge for identifying that couple in the manner she did!!
Yes, indeed she was.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by OllyExtra05
I think sometimes when people say things like "Oh, my friend Peter, he's black, or my friend Angela, she's gay", or whatever, its almost like they're trying to prove to themselves and to whomever they're talking to that they're not racist/homophobic. It seems to me to be sort of like a half-way step between racism and not-racism (which, uh, isn't a word, but go with me on this). Its sort of like, they're trying to interact with people of other races and are almost proud of themselves that they're doing it, but they still see that person, whether they're black, asian, gay, purple, whatever, as being "different" than them.
Okay, I guess if they were purple then they would really be different, huh?
Anyways, there's my $.02, dunno if that made any sense, but there ya go!

No, it makes perfect sense.
On that note, I wish that my friends would say "my friend Cindy at TCS, she's super duper intelligent,, she's having a party Memorial day weekend"

post #72 of 86
Yes, I wish my friends would say, "My friend Julianna, the incredibly good-looking one". ;0
post #73 of 86
Even the Pope sees the rise of anti-Semitism happening: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...any/index.html Just thought that was an interesting addition to this thread.
post #74 of 86
This is all very interesting. I think that a lot of people take a certain level of racism or anti-semitism for granted, while not overtly judging someone for their race or religion, they still don't see the problem in the language. "Jew Couple" is wording with roots in anti-semitism, and even if the waitress didn't know any better, she should learn that those words have emotional baggage. Jew is a noun, Jewish is the adjective. So Jewish couple would not be so emotionally loaded.

However, the anti-semitism part here is underlying everything. Unless the couple self identified as being Jewish, and that had some bearing on their food order, then the waitress had no business using that descriptor. An example of a case where it does make a difference; my sister does catering, and if she has a lunch to do, where sandwiches are served, she will ask if there are any Jewish guests. And if there are, just to be safe, she will separate the meat and dairy, just in case. That would make it useful to have "Jewish couple" indicated on the food order, that means, don't serve them the ham and cheese sandwich with butter and mayo. (She also asks about other religious food restrictions, and other dietary issues.)

This whole issue really came home to me years ago. I am left-liberal, raised in a family that had many many friends from many parts of the world, we learned to embrace different cultures. I thought I was as racially "blind" as you could be. But I was in a university graduate school program with students from all over the world. We were at a bar on a Friday night, early in the year when we didn't all know each other, and one of the professors was trying to find out the name of one of the students. He kept asking, what's that guy's name, The guy standing over there, wearing a blue shirt, he's about my height, etc. etc. Finally I realized who he was referring to, and said, oh, you mean the Black guy? (He was the only African American in the bar at the time. One black face in a sea of white). The professor looked sort of confused for a minute, then surprised, and said, oh, right, he is black, isn't he! The prof had just arrived from teaching in Tanzania, and said that in his first day there, realized that identifying someone as "that black guy" just didn't give any useful information. And after several years, literally did not notice someone's skin colour.

That is true racial blindness. The fact that the waitress noticed and identified the couple as Jewish is still exhibiting remnants of anti-semitism.
post #75 of 86
As a Jewish person, I find subtle level's of Anti Semitism all the time, in my life. Just quiet little things, that you can't really put your finger on. Little things, like if I don't want to buy something or spend money on something, I don't want in the first place, I'll get the comment like, "Oh..Sorry, I should have known you'd be cheap.", insinuating that Jewish people are overly frugal or tight with their money, which couldn't be farther from the truth at least in my case, if anything I'm terrible with managing money, and I LOVE spending it, when I have it. Also, I've noticed people will come up to me, just before pay day, and ask to borrow money, if I tell them I'm broke, they will say, "Oh don't tell me that, you people hoard money like crazy."

Now, as far as that waitress in the restaurant is concened, had I been the person at the table, and I was referred to, in that manner, I probably would have felt a certain amount of bad feelings about it, especially if I hadn't done anything to point out that I was Jewish. I would have thought she could have identified them in a manor, like the "cute couple", or the "blond couple", or the "lady in the red dress", or something like that.
post #76 of 86
If somebody is identified as a "cute couple", then presumably someone else can be identified as an "ugly couple". What about "old couple". People that do not consider themselves old can have their evening ruined if they are identified as an "old couple". I think it's very simple for them to just use table numbers. This way no one can be hurt for whatever careless remark the waitress choses to identify the diners.
post #77 of 86
HopeHacker that's exactly the kind of prejudice I am referring to. Perfectly lovely people, who still act on misguided stereotypes. And since I started my own business with a Jewish couple as associates, I hear and see more than I ever imagined. Like, the reference to "you people", which is just the most insulting and infuriating thing that a person can say.
post #78 of 86
Thread Starter 
[quote=HopeHacker]As a Jewish person, I find subtle level's of Anti Semitism all the time, in my life. Just quiet little things, that you can't really put your finger on. Little things, like if I don't want to buy something or spend money on something, I don't want in the first place, I'll get the comment like, "Oh..Sorry, I should have known you'd be cheap.", insinuating that Jewish people are overly frugal or tight with their money, which couldn't be farther from the truth at least in my case, if anything I'm terrible with managing money, and I LOVE spending it, when I have it. Also, I've noticed people will come up to me, just before pay day, and ask to borrow money, if I tell them I'm broke, they will say, "Oh don't tell me that, you people hoard money like crazy."

Wow, Hope, that's another jaw dropper. BTW, even though NYC has a very large population of Jews, I think the predjudice is still there, it just sits under the horizon, and not really talked about. But that goes for every race or religion.
post #79 of 86
If anyone is interested, I found out recently where and how exactly the "cheap" or frugal stereotype came to be...

In ancient times, Catholics ( I am not sure of other christian religions) weren't allowed to lend money or be money-lenders. Jewish people had no such tenet disallowing them from this..
Though the Romans weren't allowed to be money lenders, they could be the "borrowers". Since, obviously interest rates were charged, it was supposedly Catholics that started this idea that Jews were cheap or frugal.
(ie, we also saw this carry on to the Shylock character in Merchant of Venice)

(remember,this is ancient civilization..)

I thought that kind of interesting...Many ideas or sayings we use regularly (many less volatile and hurtful ones than this example) had their roots in ancient times...
post #80 of 86
Hey, I gotta tell you. My husband is Dutch and I now fully understand where the expression "Dutch Treat" came from. Whoever coined that phrase must have known him in a former life. He is, shall we say, REALLY FRUGAL!
post #81 of 86
I never even thought of that one!

But seeing as he is so very attractive, I am sure you forgive him
post #82 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite
Hey, I gotta tell you. My husband is Dutch and I now fully understand where the expression "Dutch Treat" came from. Whoever coined that phrase must have known him in a former life. He is, shall we say, REALLY FRUGAL!
Tell me about it. I work with a Dutch man and it's all true. He is a nice guy and all that, but when it comes to money...he would be selling you snow in winter.
Sometimes stereotypes are right on the money.
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite
Hey, I gotta tell you. My husband is Dutch and I now fully understand where the expression "Dutch Treat" came from. Whoever coined that phrase must have known him in a former life. He is, shall we say, REALLY FRUGAL!
Oh, oh, you better watch it, "they" will accuse you of being a racist bigot against your own husband.
post #84 of 86
Nah, he's A-OK. I'm gonna keep him another 28 years if I can. After all these years I've learned how to "talk him out of his money".
post #85 of 86
My husband is Jewish, and on our wedding night, the first thing we BOTH wanted to do when we got to the honeymoon suite was whip up a calculator and tally up our checks!!! Talk about romance!
The next morning we had a brunch after the wedding, when his mother jokingly asked us how our first night of wedded "bliss" was, my husband was very proud to tell her the first thing he did was count up the loot, to which she had to say "Aww, that's a good Jew!"
Not at all PC, but very true, and very funny!

PS-Yosemite--talking my husband out of money is something I've elevated to an art form
post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
They use descriptions of people to identify them on checks? I wonder who came up with that brilliant idea? I mean, Jew couple is awful, but what else do they come up with to describe the couples? Fat couple, skinny couple, bold couple, hot couple, ugly couple, ancient couple, robbing the grave couple? I would recommend to them-get a clue and start identifying the people by their table number! Gee!
actually this is how my mother remembers people, but this is because the alcohol has effected her brain to remember peoples new names and she is deaf
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