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Siamese Breeding Question - Page 2  

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailsoluv
What makes you think that ANY serious, reputable breeders make any money breeding cats? Or that they don't do it for love of the animals? Did you think that a person would turn around and house whole males and females in their homes with all the associated work and care which comes from maintaining these animals if they didn't love the cats and the breed they choose to work with?

When you pay for a registered cat, you are HOPEFULLY paying for the breeder's knowledge of the genetic health of the lines, something which you have NO shot of doing if the cats are not registered without traceable pedigrees. Just because a cat is registered, it does NOT make it show quality. Registered breeders do sell out their pet-quality kittens, but what makes them a pet vs. breeder or show is merely cosmetic - not as a result of a possible lethal problem.

If you want a cheap, non-registered "Siamese" you can acquire one from www.meezer.org or any other of a number of breed-specific rescue groups who wind up having to save the "cheap" Siamese that people dump because they didn't pay enough for the cats to value them. That way, at least you are saving a cat whose ancestry is unknown rather than paying for the privilege of someone who feels that its just fun to have a bunch of kittens running around their house whose ancestries are also unknown.

Breeding consists of far more than simply allowing two cats who are not neutered to reproduce.

It is also of concern that if a person cannot afford to pay a reasonable pet price for a registered kitten, they probably also can't afford to pay vet bills if something happens to the animal.

I'm not suggesting that this is so in your case, but you do a disservice to ALL breeders by implying that it is perfectly OK for someone to breed unregistered cats or registered cats thrown together by BYBs who purchased registered cats from some other BYB who acquired a registered cat from a reputable breeder because that breeder ultimately did not check out the prospective buyer well enough.

I'm sure that you love your baby with all of your heart, and it is perfectly proper for someone who wishes to preserve Old Style bloodlines in the breed for the sake of preserving the breed - the resulting kittens not being showable - but it is NOT OK to have people breed for no purpose other than to produce kittens for the pet trade. There are way too many kittens/cats looking for loving permanent homes. There is no need for people to breed to produce more of these cats.

The current going rate in the Northeastern US for pet-quality modern Siamese from a reptuable breeder is $500.00. The price of Old Style kittens may cost even more.

Sorry to make you feel I'm being harsh, but I cannot condone breeding just for the sake of producing pets. There is a great deal of difference between someone who breeds an untitled cat and someone who breeds an unregistered cat or a registered cat who is of such poor quality typewise that there is absolutely no possibility of its or any of its offspring ever being shown.

Barb Amalfi
The problem is, that because modern styles are the standard now, the old styles cats have no chance of winning anything. But many people, like myself, prefer traditional styles. So, even though the goal of the breeder is to preserve those genes, the only thing they can produce is pets. Which is perfectly fine with people like me, who would never show cats anyway, even if they were show style, but instead want a traditional style kitten. As for money, the same argument could be made for people who adopt moggie cats, is that they could not afford a vet bill.
post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as she is registered, she would be accepted in a show, she just won't win anything. For instance, I have doll faced persians, so, since they are registered, I could take them to a show, and show them, but they won't win anything as they are not up to the modern standard.
You are correct. As long as a cat is registered with an association, it may be shown. However, if it doesn't meet the standard, the judges may withhold wins for lack of merit. I would think that what she meant to say is that it wouldn't be worth her while to show the cat since it wouldn't win and, in fact, may even be disqualified for lack of merit. If you came right down to it, it might be worthwhile to show Old Style Siamese in some associations in an effort to try to get them accepted on the show bench, but it would be totally pointless to try that in CFA.

CFA's rules state that look-a-like cats may not been shown. CFA recently accepted pointed Tonkinese into Championship. This being the case, Old Style Siamese would be precluded from being shown in Championship and showing them in Exhibition would never succeed in getting them accepted again. <*sigh*>
post #33 of 50
Old Style cats can be shown, as I have pointed out, in two associations - ICE and UFO. But Old Style breeders don't give their cats away as pets, and consequently registered breeders still charge the same kinds of prices.

As for moggies, you are right. The same argument can be made, but breeders, unless they are deliberately breeding moggies, have no control over who adopts them.
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailsoluv
I bet you're right I should have thought Curls, don't know where my brain is<VBG>

I've often said that if I was going to do a longhaired breed (although I do know that Curls also come in shorthairs) that I would do American Curls. I have always found them to be exceedingly affectionate and so adorable with their little curled-back ears. I remember one time when the Today Show had a curl breeder on to advertise the MSG show that INCATs was putting on. The stupid interviewer asked the woman about the ears on the cat, and the breedeer said "We get them that way by putting curlers on them overnight before the show." Obviously she was joking, but the idiot interviewer took her seriously - pathetic, isn't it? Do you get lots of stupid questions like that from spectators?

Barb A.
I remember that comment. We all had to deal with the aftermath from that - though I love an original cartoon making fun of that notion that Caroline Scott drew for a breed publication and sent to me as a gift. It's adorable

Yes, I used to get some interesting comments from spectators. The most upset was an elderly woman at Madison Square Garden - back when Incats held their shows there and the breed was still quite new. She was so angry she was spitting, and asked me how could I have done this to my cats. I told her to take it up with God since he designed them, and nothing is done to make their ears curl that way!
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailsoluv
Old Style cats can be shown, as I have pointed out, in two associations - ICE and UFO. But Old Style breeders don't give their cats away as pets, and consequently registered breeders still charge the same kinds of prices.

As for moggies, you are right. The same argument can be made, but breeders, unless they are deliberately breeding moggies, have no control over who adopts them.
Personally, I didn't get my doll faced persians because they were cheap, but because I wanted an old style kitten.
But I think the poster just meant that the pet quality cats are generally cheaper than the show quality cats. The breeders usually sell their pet quality kittens for less than their show quality kittens. Which makes sense, as it show quality kittens are more rare. The breeder would also not want to place their show quality kitten in a pet home. Even if I got a most perfect show quality cat, it's qualities would be wasted because I wouldn't show him, so, why should I pay extra for show quality when all I want as a pet owner is a pet quality anyway?
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailsoluv
What makes you think that ANY serious, reputable breeders make any money breeding cats? Or that they don't do it for love of the animals? Did you think that a person would turn around and house whole males and females in their homes with all the associated work and care which comes from maintaining these animals if they didn't love the cats and the breed they choose to work with?

I don't believe I said anything about those breeders not loving their cats.

When you pay for a registered cat, you are HOPEFULLY paying for the breeder's knowledge of the genetic health of the lines, something which you have NO shot of doing if the cats are not registered without traceable pedigrees. Just because a cat is registered, it does NOT make it show quality. Registered breeders do sell out their pet-quality kittens, but what makes them a pet vs. breeder or show is merely cosmetic - not as a result of a possible lethal problem.

My breeder IS registered - but you pay less for the kitten if you don't request the registered papers.

If you want a cheap, non-registered "Siamese" you can acquire one from www.meezer.org or any other of a number of breed-specific rescue groups who wind up having to save the "cheap" Siamese that people dump because they didn't pay enough for the cats to value them. That way, at least you are saving a cat whose ancestry is unknown rather than paying for the privilege of someone who feels that its just fun to have a bunch of kittens running around their house whose ancestries are also unknown.

I was not looking for a "CHEAP" Siamese - I was looking for an "AFFORDABLE" Siamese from someone whom I know breeds and raises cats WITH A WONDERFUL TEMPERAMENT. I also believe that anyone who would "dump" a cat would have dumped the cat regardless of what they paid. They obviously have no integrity. My breeder also knows the ancestry of her cats and kittens.

It is also of concern that if a person cannot afford to pay a reasonable pet price for a registered kitten, they probably also can't afford to pay vet bills if something happens to the animal.

That's a pretty large assumption on your part. Perhaps they prefer not to pay the large sum even if they could afford it. I personally won't buy anything from someone who is charging more for something I can get elsewhere for less. Call me miserly if you must!


I'm sure that you love your baby with all of your heart, and it is perfectly proper for someone who wishes to preserve Old Style bloodlines in the breed for the sake of preserving the breed - the resulting kittens not being showable - but it is NOT OK to have people breed for no purpose other than to produce kittens for the pet trade. There are way too many kittens/cats looking for loving permanent homes. There is no need for people to breed to produce more of these cats.

Yes there are lots of kittens and cats that need homes, but I WANTED A SIAMESE - go figure! I also personally do not like the Modern Siamese and much prefer Applehead and Traditional so I do feel there is a need for these breeders to produce more of these cats for folks like me.


The current going rate in the Northeastern US for pet-quality modern Siamese from a reptuable breeder is $500.00. The price of Old Style kittens may cost even more.

Our Bijou cost us $175 CDN.

Sorry to make you feel I'm being harsh, but I cannot condone breeding just for the sake of producing pets. There is a great deal of difference between someone who breeds an untitled cat and someone who breeds an unregistered cat or a registered cat who is of such poor quality typewise that there is absolutely no possibility of its or any of its offspring ever being shown.

If I said or implied that our breeder was not registered I erred. She is registered and the quality of her animals is impeccable. Those of us who have her animals have them because they are very gentle, loving, hand-raised animals that sleep with her and her family and are exceptionally socialized before we ever got them and we have no desire to SHOW them - just love them and spoil them and get immense pleasure just looking at them. When I look at Bijou my heart flip-flops.

Barb Amalfi
YES, I NEED a breeder like this.[u]
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
The problem is, that because modern styles are the standard now, the old styles cats have no chance of winning anything. But many people, like myself, prefer traditional styles. So, even though the goal of the breeder is to preserve those genes, the only thing they can produce is pets. Which is perfectly fine with people like me, who would never show cats anyway, even if they were show style, but instead want a traditional style kitten. As for money, the same argument could be made for people who adopt moggie cats, is that they could not afford a vet bill.
So what if they don't have a chance of winning? Get over it. If you want to win get a show quality one.

Yeah but the point Gaye was trying to make was breeders that just breed for the sake of selling kittens, if a breeder is preserving genes then that is fine.
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
So what if they don't have a chance of winning? Get over it. If you want to win get a show quality one.

Yeah but the point Gaye was trying to make was breeders that just breed for the sake of selling kittens, if a breeder is preserving genes then that is fine.
I think I already pointed out, not only I don't want to win, I wouldn't attend the shows even if I had a perfect show quality cat. And being the pet owner, I don't think it really makes a difference to me if the breeder's goal is to preserve genes or to just produce pet quality kittens. How does the goal of the breeder, whatever that is, affects someone like me, who wants a pet quality cat in a first place? I still want a breeder that produces healthy cats with the looks and temperament that I like, obviously.
post #39 of 50
Thread Starter 
I do not have CHEAP cats. Mow my spayed seal was US 450, my blue point Sarah was 350 and my show quality seal point female was $1,000. I do not think that anyone here would say that I have cheap cats.
Truthfully, I have read alot of articles about diseases at the shows. I do not want to take my show female there until she is over a year. As for my other two I do not want to even expose them to the germs unnessarily. Sarah is breeder quality and Mow is spayed. Although, reputable breeders have seen Mow and said that he would definately win champion status.
post #40 of 50
This is just a quick reply - I am still under the weather (Why is it migraines attack when we are on vacation - a rhetorical question, I think it is bec of the pressures we are under (in my case, post traumatic stress - one can only handle so many tours of duty with Drs without Borders and then come back to seeing dying children I have treated and grown fond of over the yrs. Hence the migraibe - but I need it to be better by Wed so cross your fongers and send out some vibes for me, please!)

I am a bit astonished at where this debate has gone. I did not mean to be rude Pat - and certainly not to Wellington Farms. I must admit I honestly did not know you are a registered breeder - that's wonderful. I certainly never ever thought you were anything but ethical and if I came across that way, I am truly sorry. I have a busy life so I do not have time to read every post nor do I know who has a cattery or who does not. I tend to read the New Posts and read the ones that I think I might be able to help with or are of interest to me. Before that is misinterpreted, please be assured I do not mean to slight anyone by not reading sll posts. I work very long hours and this place is a stress reducer of sorts for me - and a place to find out info about cats , sort of a PTA for kitties if you will.

It is my opinion that most people here love their cats and are excellent breeders and cat people. I can only reiterate that the organization I am familiar with - and I do not know the ethical coniderations of others save the national ones - strongly discourages the breeding of Queens before their 1st birthday unless of course their health would be affected which as was noted, can occur. I have two award winning Sphynx at the moment and they are certainly eligible to be bred but since their meomy is in a coma and I am just the foster (part of her living will). But they continue to win. I personally do not have the time to breed them and if their meomy dies, I will likely spay them. I have been so chagrined at the overpopulation of cats and horrified by backyard breeders who are hurting the legitimate breeders - who go thru all the regular channels only to have these ppl - who are in it mostly for a profit, even those who claim to love their pets, sighhhhh - undercut the whole program. Canada is also diuscussing adding the GST to registered catteries so that is another huge debate here.

But I guess I just assumed (prob not a ghood thing to do) that most ppl here were quite unanimous in that pedigreed, titled cats are the only ones who should be bred. It seems to be the way of the world here and the only ethics I understand. I don't actually understand - to be frank - why one would breed a cat who is not up to the breed standard???

I did not realize either that the response was to just the time issue. It was late, I am sick and going thru a difficult time so my mind was prob not as focued on reading the first comment I responded to. What shocked me was the comment that it's a cat - breed it which I interpreted to mean if you have a Queen, well just let her get pregnant, don;t worry about it. That is how it came across to me at any rate. I have no idea any more how it was intended.

I thought Wellington Cats was a good breeder and was not certain it was the same person (it was 3 or 4 am when I posted the remark) and I did find it unsual that so respected a breeder would say that and wondered if it was the same person to be honest. (Again, perhaps one should not post when in pain and not well, I don't know anymore). All I could think of was how could anyone say well if you have a cat, breed her no matter what and I could not ethically - even tho I was in bed and not even typing well (tho I am not a great typist at the best of times, lol)- let that comment pass. To me, it sounded as if someone was saying anyone who as a Queen should breed her anytime. It was one comment that really concerned me and I guess I needed a clarification.

And I guess I did recieve one, lol

I do apologize again. I wish I had time to read everyone's profile (did not know that was a requirement - if it is, I guess I should just leave bec it's just impossible!) and every post but I have so little time to post as it is.

I have still to read the rest of the message - my head aches too much to read past the part where Wellington Cats demanded an apology and I have to go back to bed. (I am no good to anyone if I do not handle this stuff, post traumatic stress at al).

If I am not welcome here, I understand - I think - tho I think it is very unfair for you to all jump on me at this time, How can i possibly know everyone's details? With all due respect, one would have to be here morning, noon and nite to do that - I responded to a comment that sounded like someone was advocating breeding ever Queen in sight anytime!!! I don't aplogize for that - I do apologize for any misconception that I was showing disrespect. I know most of the breeders here are excellent (I say most bec occasionally someone comes on with a cat who has become pregnant or they are pondering breeding the family pet, etc) - I was not questioning that. I was just upset at that very blunt comment. It made no sense in the context of where I am coming from - a proponent of spaying and neutering and breeding onkly pedigreeded titled purebred cats that meet the standard of their breed. I will not compromise that belief in nay way.
post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
CFA is my idol. I can't wait to one day visit a CFA show.

Sam,

I guess I take them for granted If you really want to go to one and ever have the means to get to the US, I would take you! My daughter and her friends LOVE the cat shows. Rochester seems to have TONS of Persians at the shows.

We have our next show here Aug. 20 and then in a city close by again Sept 24,25.
They are back again here Oct 15 and 16.

I will take tons of pictures at our next show for you.

I don't show my cats, but just enjoy the shows.

Anyways....I knew you were annoyed when you signed your name Samantha not Sam....LOL

Have a great night!
Bobbie
post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kids4cats
<snip>and then in a city close by again Sept 24,25. <snip>
Bobbie
Ah...that has to be Salt City - a cfa club I used to belong to (and heaven help me I even was the show manager one year and survived! )
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat & Alix
Ah...that has to be Salt City - a cfa club I used to belong to (and heaven help me I even was the show manager one year and survived! )

No, that one would be Cicero. The city is Syracuse, NY. My twin sister lives there. It's about an hour and a half away from me. I am in Rochester, NY.

CFA shows are a lot of fun. I wish TICA would come to this area more often. I have a Bengal and a Chausie. Both are TICA breeds. My Ocicat and Egyptian Mau are allowed in CFA. There aren't that many of their breeds around though Persians are really common here. So are Siamese. I see both listed in the local paper all the time for $150-$300 US. They probably are BYB... who knows....

Bobbie
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kids4cats
No, that one would be Cicero. The city is Syracuse, NY. My twin sister lives there. It's about an hour and a half away from me. I am in Rochester, NY.

CFA shows are a lot of fun. I wish TICA would come to this area more often. I have a Bengal and a Chausie. Both are TICA breeds. My Ocicat and Egyptian Mau are allowed in CFA. There aren't that many of their breeds around though Persians are really common here. So are Siamese. I see both listed in the local paper all the time for $150-$300 US. They probably are BYB... who knows....

Bobbie
Yes, the Syracuse CFA club is Salt City, I lived there for 40 years I was unaware of the Cicero club (though to me Cicero is just an extension of Syracuse and I have no idea where the club holds meetings these days. It used to be at a restaurant on Erie Blvd, in Syracuse.

I know Rochester fairly well, and went to college (the first time) nearby in Geneva, NY
I recently heard that TICA is holding it's annual show in Syracuse this year - would be a good opportunity for you!
post #45 of 50
Cool! I have never heard of the term Salt City, but that is probably because I am in Rochester My sister is actually in the town of Clay. Right off route 81

I will have to check out the TICA schedule. I would love to see all the different breeds.

Well, time for bed and some attention from my kitten. He is 5 months old and at the "lovable" stage. He purrs when you look at him. He is a F2 Chausie so I am really shocked at how sweet he is.

My Ocicat is from a breeder in Syracuse.

Have a great night .....
Bobbie
post #46 of 50
Hey thanks for the heads up! I just looked it up and the show is Sept 3 and 4 for TICA. I already have that week off from work WOOHOO

The state fair is also that week so I guess I will be spending a couple of nights at my sisters house.

Bobbie
post #47 of 50
Oh lucky you...have a piece of Pizza Fritte for me if you do go to the fair
post #48 of 50
CyberKitten,

The part I was most angry at was that you assumed I wasn't a registered breeder.

We will have to agree to disagree on the only breeding cats that have show titles because quite honestly I think this is so stupid and I've never met anyone else who thought this was a good idea.

What about if a breeder shows a kitten and it does well winning best in shows everywhere and then they don't end up showing them as a cat because they have no time, can't they breed their cat?

Not everyone has the time to show. I'm 15 and this is my most important year at school so I've had to limit the number of shows I've been to this year. I think I've been to less then ten. My female which I have been showing has just turned into a cat and she will only get to one show as a cat because her Mummy is busy with school work.

Anyway thank you for your apology, and no reading everybodys profiles is not a requirement but it is a dangerous assumption to make about me not being registered.

I'm probably one of TCS's most anti backyard breeding members. I'm well known for letting backyard breeders know how I feel.

Sam
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kids4cats
Sam,

I guess I take them for granted If you really want to go to one and ever have the means to get to the US, I would take you! My daughter and her friends LOVE the cat shows. Rochester seems to have TONS of Persians at the shows.

We have our next show here Aug. 20 and then in a city close by again Sept 24,25.
They are back again here Oct 15 and 16.

I will take tons of pictures at our next show for you.

I don't show my cats, but just enjoy the shows.

Anyways....I knew you were annoyed when you signed your name Samantha not Sam....LOL

Have a great night!
Bobbie
Hi Bobbie,

Awww if I ever get to your part of the USA. I will definitly let you know!

I love cat shows too. Sadly because this year is such a busy year at school for me I've only been able to attend about ten this year.

This year my clubs hosted three shows and next year we are hosting four. *sigh* It's hard work.

I'll definitly look forward to the photos. Thank you!!

LOL yup I do that when I'm annoyed and it's not too often either.

Thanks again, hope you have a nice night too

Sam
post #50 of 50
I think the original poster's questions have been addressed now and since it seems that this thread is going off topic, I'll close it now.

~gf~
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