Siamese Breeding Question

megmar6853 · Aug 8, 2005

I am a new CFA siamese breeder. I have had one litter of siamese before. Now my show quality girl is in her second heat cycle. I have heard from several breeders that siamese are the most fertile in the third heat cycle in the thrid day, but she will only be ten months old at the time. I have also heard other breeders that say not until the cat is one year old.
Does any one have any insight to this?
I bred Sarah my blue point when she was 11 months old. She is a great mom with no labor complications.

gayef · Aug 8, 2005

Will this be her first litter? Personally, I would wait a little while longer if you can.

megmar6853 · Aug 8, 2005

yes this is her first litter, do you know anything about the third heat cycle third day myth?

cyberkitten · Aug 8, 2005

Wow, 11 months is a little young. Do yiu have a mentor? I would wait - most breeders only allow their Queens to be bred once a yr- the repoutabkle ones I know anyway - Gaye may be able to add to this.

megmar6853 · Aug 8, 2005

I have always read that 2 twice a year is a good breeding practice. I have read all the books on siamese written. My mentor is my stud service. She approved 11 months because she was was only a few weeks away from being one. Sarah is an excellent mother. The kittens are 9 weeks old now and she is still very attentive to them. She had no labor complications. She actually gave birth to all four in one hour. Unfortunatly, one of the kittens was born with a heart mummur and died when it was eight days old. I have learned from this mistake. Sarah will be with a different stud the next time. If she still produces defects then I will alter her.

gayef · Aug 8, 2005

Usually, when you choose to support a certain registry organization, that organization has a set of Breeder Ethics. The standard policy seems to be pretty much the same across the board when it comes to the age to begin breeding - 1 year old - however, this is not always practical in real-life application. The health of the queen has to be paramount and if you have a queen going in and out of estrus like crazy, you are risking the uterus and ultimately, the overall good health of the cat. As for the number of litters per year, again the registry association you choose to support may have a set of Breeder Ethics which outlines what you should and shouldn't do. But again, the standard pretty much across the board seems to be no more than 2 litters per year.

If you have an 8 month old on her second estrus and she is cycling consistantly every 21 days then you do have a dilemma on your hands. I bred my own girl the first time at just shy of a year and that was her 3rd cycle. This time, she was on her 4th. I don't really know anything about the 3rd cycle myth - what I do know is that they can be fertile enough to become pregnant at just about any time if they allow a male to breed them.

As for the number of litters per year, again the registry association you choose to support may have a set of Breeder Ethics which outlines what you should and shouldn't do. But again, the standard pretty much across the board seems to be no more than 2 litters per year.

wellingtoncats · Aug 8, 2005

She's ten months old so she is a cat. Breed her.

We try to breed only once a season, but sometimes that means they have kittens twice a year.

Sam

Breeding registered Persians & Exotics!

cyberkitten · Aug 8, 2005

She's ten months old so she is a cat. Breed her.

Are you kidding? Or is this an attempt at humour? It's just where I am we have a year as the basic limit unless of course something happens (sighhh!!). I don't believe that all cats shoudl be bred simply bec they can - In our org , only titled champions should be bred or in some cases, daughters sho are show aulity but hate the show thing.

But I better not say more- I suspect you are just trying to get me going. <g> And it's late.

wellingtoncats · Aug 8, 2005

Excuse me. I am NOT trying to get you going.

In our association we CAN breed them from nine months since this is the age they are a cat.

What is your org?

I think you're the one trying to get me started and that rule that only show titled cats should be bred is absolute rubbish! What about the cats you keep that are purely for lines and not for their looks?

I'd appreciate an apology

Samantha

cyberkitten · Aug 9, 2005

Wow, I honestly thought you were kiddiung. I apologize - I am not sure what I did to be honest tho whatever it was I can asure I meant no disrespect. I am referring to our Cat Fanciers assoc - we are only allowed to breed titled cats. Anyone else is regarded as a back yard breeder. I guess I thought that was the norm everywhere. I do honestly believe thast too - there is no good reason to breed other than progressing the breed (Not sure I like the phrase for the good of the breed since I am not sure what that actually means anyway). But I see no need to breed a female cat unless she is a titled champion or Show quality cat. That said, my own Show quality Siamese is spayed. There are quite enuf breeders without me jumping into the equation and the overpopulation crisis disturbs me.

I do not sincerely agree that a cat should be bred simply because she can be - and yes, I really thought you were putting me on because you know my beliefs - my friends sometimes say things to get me going and it was late and thus after I wrote, I thought "oh dear, maybe she just said that to get me started.."

We will have to agree to disagree I guess. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Are you a registeredb breeder? This is a hot topic where I live - esp since some nbyb breeders get away with selling unhealthy cats and do not makje the lifetime committment to their kittens - among so many other things. This is my day off and I have a migraine otherwise I'd wrote more but anyway - we'll just have to accept the fact we have very differehnt perspectives.

I would try if I were you to be somewhat more diplomatic tho - I can sometimes be blunt to but to just say it's acat, breed her was very dfisturbing to me if you honestyly believe that and are a registered breeder!

megmar6853 · Aug 9, 2005

I am registered with CFA. My girl is show quality. Both of her parents are champions. When she is a little older we will show her. The breeder I bought her from is my mentor and stud service. She will be bred with a stud that is an established national champion. Rachal started heat very early. She is only nine months old and in her second cycle. She is very very very crazy when she is in heat. I think that she needs to be bred in the next two months for her health. She actually tries to cause herself harm in heat. She bites herself till she bleeds and tourchers my other two siamese. I believe that she has crazy hormones that are driving her nuts.

pat · Aug 9, 2005

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

Wow, I honestly thought you were kiddiung. I apologize - I am not sure what I did to be honest tho whatever it was I can asure I meant no disrespect. I am referring to our Cat Fanciers assoc - we are only allowed to breed titled cats. Anyone else is regarded as a back yard breeder. I guess I thought that was the norm everywhere. I do honestly believe thast too - there is no good reason to breed other than progressing the breed (Not sure I like the phrase for the good of the breed since I am not sure what that actually means anyway). But I see no need to breed a female cat unless she is a titled champion or Show quality cat. That said, my own Show quality Siamese is spayed. There are quite enuf breeders without me jumping into the equation and the overpopulation crisis disturbs me.

I do not sincerely agree that a cat should be bred simply because she can be - and yes, I really thought you were putting me on because you know my beliefs - my friends sometimes say things to get me going and it was late and thus after I wrote, I thought "oh dear, maybe she just said that to get me started.."

We will have to agree to disagree I guess. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Are you a registeredb breeder? This is a hot topic where I live - esp since some nbyb breeders get away with selling unhealthy cats and do not makje the lifetime committment to their kittens - among so many other things. This is my day off and I have a migraine otherwise I'd wrote more but anyway - we'll just have to accept the fact we have very differehnt perspectives.

I would try if I were you to be somewhat more diplomatic tho - I can sometimes be blunt to but to just say it's acat, breed her was very dfisturbing to me if you honestyly believe that and are a registered breeder!

I am sorry you have a migraine, those can be beastly. But...you've been on the board a while now, surely you recognize that Sam is part of a registered cattery, producing lovely cats and with a good reputation? She was hardly saying breed the cat because you can. She was answering the age question!

I find Sam as blunt as I, but more diplomatic and tactful, so I really shouldn't speak for her, she can do so quite well herself (sorry Sam!).

Re the do not breed unless the cat is titled, I honestly think this reflects the fact you've never had a breeding program (unless I mis-understand). Many cats produce far better than themselves, and in the US (and in other countries, as I am privey to breeding decisions made concerning my breed in countries such as Poland, Sweden and Russia), there is a class called breeder quality - it consists of those cats who meet the standard well enough, solidly enough to be used for breeding but NOT show quality.

I am truly puzzled as to why the association you are referring to would insist on only titled cats - is this a national all breed registry, or are you referring to a breed group, which I could believe might come up with such a suggestion (though I don't know why, as to me this is a senseless restriction.)

Just for keeping the record straight, I am a retired breeder and no, I was not a backyard breeder either.

wellingtoncats · Aug 9, 2005

No need to apoligise Pat, thank you!

Yes CyberKitten as Pat has pointed out to you. I'm a registered breeder, with NZ's leading cat organisation I might add, the New Zealand Cat Fancy and I do find it very rude that you have accused me of not being registered.

I do not have the attitude OH since she can bred, lets breed her. I do not feel the need to justify myself or my breeding programme to you but for the sake of it I will.

My Nana has been breeding Persians & Exotics for just under sixty years, I've been breeding for six now. Ever since I was two years old I've been at my Nana's asking questions about EVERYTHING I can. I'm a NZCF registered Handler too and in the next year or two I am going to be starting my NZCF judging course. So I will be a longhair judge.

YOU personally aren't a breeder or haven't been so quite honestly I feel you have no right to lecture anyone here. So what if I'm blunt? If it gets the point across and no one is offended then good. I don't want to dither around posting a whole lot of would be could be's if I can get straight to the point.

Thanks for your apology for the FIRST post.

Sam

megmar6853 · Aug 9, 2005

I do not mean to be nasty by my remark but in the CFA the tradional siamese are not considered show quality and you have a picture of a traditional at the bottom of your screen. So by what you said about champions you should not be breeding any of your cats. I personally think that the tradional siamese need to be preserved, so they should have the right to breed. I have studied the breeding ethics of the CFA and there is nothing mentioned about only breeding champions. My cat Sarah is 75% wedge and 25% applehead. She is condidered breeder quality. She would not be accepted in a show, but she did produce show quality kittens with the help of a full modern stud.

wellingtoncats · Aug 9, 2005

Yeah that rule is awful saying only show titled cats can be breed. What's the situation if you have some beautiful kittens but a beloved family member dies so you can get to any shows that year? Nah, that's definitly stupid. If my fancy ever brought in that I'd spit.

Do you have a link to your associations website, please?

tailsoluv · Aug 9, 2005

Originally Posted by CyberKitten

Wow, I honestly thought you were kiddiung. I apologize - I am not sure what I did to be honest tho whatever it was I can asure I meant no disrespect. I am referring to our Cat Fanciers assoc - we are only allowed to breed titled cats. Anyone else is regarded as a back yard breeder. I guess I thought that was the norm everywhere. I do honestly believe thast too - there is no good reason to breed other than progressing the breed (Not sure I like the phrase for the good of the breed since I am not sure what that actually means anyway). But I see no need to breed a female cat unless she is a titled champion or Show quality cat. That said, my own Show quality Siamese is spayed. There are quite enuf breeders without me jumping into the equation and the overpopulation crisis disturbs me.

I do not sincerely agree that a cat should be bred simply because she can be - and yes, I really thought you were putting me on because you know my beliefs - my friends sometimes say things to get me going and it was late and thus after I wrote, I thought "oh dear, maybe she just said that to get me started.."

We will have to agree to disagree I guess. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Are you a registeredb breeder? This is a hot topic where I live - esp since some nbyb breeders get away with selling unhealthy cats and do not makje the lifetime committment to their kittens - among so many other things. This is my day off and I have a migraine otherwise I'd wrote more but anyway - we'll just have to accept the fact we have very differehnt perspectives.

I would try if I were you to be somewhat more diplomatic tho - I can sometimes be blunt to but to just say it's acat, breed her was very dfisturbing to me if you honestyly believe that and are a registered breeder!

I don't want to start a flame war here, but I have NO idea where you would get the idea that a cat needs to be titled in CFA before it is bred. What a crock! Have you ever actually bred cats?

First of all, a queen which keeps coming into strong heats at an early age without being bred risks pyometras and cystic ovaries. Secondly, it should be noted that if you TRULY understood the practice of feline husbandry, you would know that some of the very best breeding animals which produce the best resulting type and health have NEVER been shown as they themselves are not show quality.

There is nothing BYB about breeding a queen or stud who has never been titled. If you were familiar enough with CFA, you would also know that one particular Siamese stud, who received the title of Distinguished Merit at the earilest age of 2-1/2 years, was never in fact shown since he had a tail fault. If you are not familiar with what the title Distinguished Merit means in CFA, it means that a female has produced 5 Grand Champions and a male has produced 15 Grand Champions. Yes, 15 Grand Champions. Are you suggesting that this stud's owner was a BYB?

If you people out there who don't breed and don't show are going to comment on a question, you should at least research your answer first. Perhaps your migraine is to blame, so I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.

Barb Amalfi

tailsoluv · Aug 9, 2005

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

Yeah that rule is awful saying only show titled cats can be breed. What's the situation if you have some beautiful kittens but a beloved family member dies so you can get to any shows that year? Nah, that's definitly stupid. If my fancy ever brought in that I'd spit.

Do you have a link to your associations website, please?

You don't need the link, Sam. THere IS no such rule in CFA or in any other association.

wellingtoncats · Aug 9, 2005

I didn't think so Barb I was thinking heck that's hard to believe and no responsible or important association could actually do that. CFA is my idol. I can't wait to one day visit a CFA show.

tailsoluv · Aug 9, 2005

Originally Posted by megmar6853

yes this is her first litter, do you know anything about the third heat cycle third day myth?

Yes, dear, this is a myth. It is generally accepted, however, that if a cat keeps coming into strong heats (calling for two weeks or longer), that it is best for the sake of the cat's health to breed her. I have no idea where the third day myth came from.

BTW, to those of you in the United States and outside of the U.S., in this country the title of Champion really doesn't denote "show quality" particularly. In most associations, one makes a Championship by winning between 4 and 6 winners ribbons. This is accomplished by competing only against cats of your cat's own status (Novice or Open), breed, sex and color. Therefore, if a cat was the only, for instance, red point female Siamese in a show and was the only Novice and there were no other Red Point Siamese female Novices, if the cat had no actual disqualifying faults (such as a kinked tail, malocclusions, incorrect paw pad coloring, etc.), it would automatically win its Winners Ribbon in each ring having defeated no other cats to win the title of Champion. A Grand Championship or higher in our associations is what denotes show quality. After all, the cat fancy is not the dog fancy.

You can always tell a BYB, because that person will advertise in a local newspaper something to the effect of "parents on premises, parents are Champions" (as if in fact this meant something).

BTW, what lines are you working with in your female Siamese? Inquiring minds want to know.

Barb Amalfi

tailsoluv · Aug 9, 2005

BTW, hon. Why don't you go out and show her now? She can be shown in heat. If cats couldn't be shown when they were in heat, then the shows would find themselves awfully devoid of entries a good part of the year

If you take her out to show her after she has been bred (and you are showing in CFA), you will certainly get a Championship on her if she has no faults, but you may never get a Grand, no matter how good she is, since a lot of judges, seeing the age of a cat and it being over a year, will say to themselves "Hey, this cat is over a year and hasn't made it's Grand Championship. There must be something wrong with it since the other judges haven't finalled it." Of course, it would never dawn on these same judges that the cat may never have been SHOWN prior to that time, since a kitten is a cat at 8 months in the U.S. and shows in the adult classes at that time. This is when most breeders immediately bring their cats out to start seriously showing them. This attitude, however, is predominantly a CFA attitude - I have not seen it in the other associations. And, yes, I have shown and Granded cats in CFA, TICA, ACFA, CFF and, by others showing my cats, in AACE, so I known from whence I speak.

Barb A.

Siamese Breeding Question

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