Rabid Foxes

I read in our local paper today that there were two rabid foxes found 3 miles from my house. They are telling people not to leave their pets food outside because it attracts wild animals and the police and animal control are riding around picking up any lose cats or dogs they see.

I only have about 6 ferals left and only 4 of them have had their rabies shots, but it's been over 3 years since they had them.

I have a next door neighbor that I refuse to have anything to do with anymore because she's nothing but a back stabbing nosy bi**h. I have a feeling she might report my cats to animal control just to get back at me.
If anybody dose show up at my door, does anybody know what I should and should'nt tell them?

Ellie

Will your cats come out for animal control to find? If so, I would try trapping them, and get them to the vet for shots. Then try to keep them inside or caged until the scare is over. What a shame to have them picking up strays!

The other thing is to do frequent checks at the pound if your cats do go missing, so you can get them back before they are euthanized!

Rabies is an extremely serious disease and should not be taken lightly. From purely a health standpoint, if you are caring for feral cats it is probably more critical for the colony to be immunized for rabies than to get them all sterilized.

First, trap ALL the cats and get them immunized. A rabies vaccination that's out of date is not valid. Check the local ordinances and see if tags are required, if so try your best to put tags on the cats. Also, get pictures of each cat. If you have to claim them at the local shelter these may be required (along with proof of rabies vaccination.) If an animal is not immunized and you can't prove it's yours then, in an area endemic for rabies, public health standards dictate the animals are euthanized.

Originally Posted by CharmsDad

Rabies is an extremely serious disease and should not be taken lightly. From purely a health standpoint, if you are caring for feral cats it is probably more critical for the colony to be immunized for rabies than to get them all sterilized.

First, trap ALL the cats and get them immunized. A rabies vaccination that's out of date is not valid. Check the local ordinances and see if tags are required, if so try your best to put tags on the cats. Also, get pictures of each cat. If you have to claim them at the local shelter these may be required (along with proof of rabies vaccination.) If an animal is not immunized and you can't prove it's yours then, in an area endemic for rabies, public health standards dictate the animals are euthanized.

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I would have to disagree...it's important to have BOTH rabies and neutering/spaying done. For feral cats, you typically only have 1 shot to trap them so having the neutering/spaying and rabies done at the same time helps to 1. bring them in compliance with rabies ordinances and 2. stops the procreation that adds to the feral cat population. Doing only one without the other will lead to more litters of kittens who will then all have to have their rabies shot.

Definately trap all the cats...but have the ones that haven't been spayed/neutered done at the same time you have the shots done.

Katie

Originally Posted by TNR1

I would have to disagree...it's important to have BOTH rabies and neutering/spaying done. For feral cats, you typically only have 1 shot to trap them so having the neutering/spaying and rabies done at the same time helps to 1. bring them in compliance with rabies ordinances and 2. stops the procreation that adds to the feral cat population. Doing only one without the other will lead to more litters of kittens who will then all have to have their rabies shot.

Definately trap all the cats...but have the ones that haven't been spayed/neutered done at the same time you have the shots done.

Katie

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Please try and read the entire post. I never stated that the sterilization was not important if you are trying to manage a group of feral cats. But, from a health standpoint, if rabies gets into the population ALL will have to be trapped and euthanized as would potentially other stray dogs and cats from the surrounding area. An outbreak would also create considerable additional public health issues. You are seriously misinformed if you don't appreciate the extremely grave nature of this disease and the need to control it. This is an area where many well intentioned individuals fail in their efforts to manage these feral colonies. While other preventable diseases can also be devastating to the animals in the specific group, rabies has far greater public health implications. Sterilizing the animals but failing to properly maintain current rabies vaccinations is not only irresponsible but also creates a potential for both criminal and civil liability.

Originally Posted by CharmsDad

Please try and read the entire post. I never stated that the sterilization was not important if you are trying to manage a group of feral cats. But, from a health standpoint, if rabies gets into the population ALL will have to be trapped and euthanized as would potentially other stray dogs and cats from the surrounding area. An outbreak would also create considerable additional public health issues. You are seriously misinformed if you don't appreciate the extremely grave nature of this disease and the need to control it. This is an area where many well intentioned individuals fail in their efforts to manage these feral colonies. While other preventable diseases can also be devastating to the animals in the specific group, rabies has far greater public health implications. Sterilizing the animals but failing to properly maintain current rabies vaccinations is not only irresponsible but also creates a potential for both criminal and civil liability.

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I didn't misread your post at all. You stated and I quote:
From purely a health standpoint, if you are caring for feral cats it is probably more critical for the colony to be immunized for rabies than to get them all sterilized. In all the rabies cases that have been reported exactly how many are attributed to feral cats??

I'm not downplaying the importance of keeping rabies UTD, however....I think it is JUST as critical to spay/neuter a colony at the same time. The chances of feral cats catching rabies is probably much less likely than the chance of an intact feral cat creating more feral cats so the 2 must be looked upon as equally important from a health perspective.

Katie

Originally Posted by TNR1

I didn't misread your post at all. You stated and I quote:
From purely a health standpoint, if you are caring for feral cats it is probably more critical for the colony to be immunized for rabies than to get them all sterilized. In all the rabies cases that have been reported exactly how many are attributed to feral cats??

I'm not downplaying the importance of keeping rabies UTD, however....I think it is JUST as critical to spay/neuter a colony at the same time. The chances of feral cats catching rabies is probably much less likely than the chance of an intact feral cat creating more feral cats so the 2 must be looked upon as equally important from a health perspective.

Katie

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For the cost of a single sterilization procedure anywhere from 10 to 20 cats can be immunized for rabies. When resources are limited (as they often are) there are times when it may be necessary to determine what is the most effective use of those resources.

It only takes ONE cat getting the disease to expose every other one in the colony. In high risk rabies areas (remember, this started with a post about two rabid foxes found 3 miles away) the probability for disease exposure is high and accepted public health policy is to remove and euthanize potential vectors, particularly animals with a high probability for human contact such as stray cats. Animals that are not owned will be trapped and will not be released back to the public. While you may not agree with it, this is the correct and standard approach used by Agriculture and Public Health officials.

A single case does not necessarily indicate an outbreak, but a pair of cases so near may be cause for concern unless there are significant geographical barriers (freeways, rivers, etc. - regular open roads are not barriers.)

I recommend you attend a course in disease containment, generally offered free by state agriculture departments to SART volunteers and other emergency responders. As a rescuer it might be well worth your while.

You should definitely trap everyone and get them re-vaccinated. Make sure you keep the paperwork in a safe place. Even though those who were vaccinated more than 3 years ago are almost surely still protected (studies indicate one shot is good for at least 7 years), if the certificate is outdated you will be out of luck with animal control. Even though cats are not a reservoir species for rabies and no one in the US has died from rabies acquired from a cat in over 30 years, they still get a bad rap.

You should also approach your local public health officials about oral rabies vaccine programs. They have been very effective where they have been consistently applied.

Hi everyone and thanks for replying.

I will try to get all of my ferals up to date on thier rabies shots. I have 4 ferals that I trapped 5 years ago when I had them sprayed /neutered and I don't know if I can re-trap them. Brandon is kinda tamed so I may be able to get him in a carrier and I remember that I had Browning Girl vac for rabies last year. There's also one feral that showed up last year that I have not been able to trap and last week a kitten showed up on my deck that's about 10 weeks old. I don't know where the mother or the rest of the litter is. There will be a spray and neuter clinic next Sunday in my area and I will try to trap the new arrivals then. I'll have to check to see if the kitten will be old enough.

The local Humane Society is also having a rabies clinic tomorrow, so I will try to get my older ferals in carriers but I don't think I will have much luck with two of them.

My 7 mostly indoor cats have already been vac. for rabies in May.

Ellen

<<You should also approach your local public health officials about oral rabies vaccine programs. They have been very effective where they have been consistently applied.>>

How does that work? Would they give me the oral rabies vaccine to give to the cats or do they come out and do it?

There's also 4 racoons that come up at night and eat the cat food. I don't like it but they don't bother my cats and I'm afraid if I stop feeding them they might starve. I would love to get some of that oral vaccine in them.

Ellie

Originally Posted by Ellie

<<You should also approach your local public health officials about oral rabies vaccine programs. They have been very effective where they have been consistently applied.>>

How does that work? Would they give me the oral rabies vaccine to give to the cats or do they come out and do it?

There's also 4 racoons that come up at night and eat the cat food. I don't like it but they don't bother my cats and I'm afraid if I stop feeding them they might starve. I would love to get some of that oral vaccine in them.

Ellie

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Oral rabies programs are for wildlife. The vaccine is approved for raccoons but it seems to work on other animals too. This is how epidemics are really prevented.

Originally Posted by CharmsDad

For the cost of a single sterilization procedure anywhere from 10 to 20 cats can be immunized for rabies. When resources are limited (as they often are) there are times when it may be necessary to determine what is the most effective use of those resources.

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You make a valid point but there is one important thing to take into account: if you vaccinate a cat without sterilizing her, she will be giving birth to two or three litters of unvaccinated kittens per year. This means up to ten or more new cats to vaccinate per female cat, per year. Not only is it going to be crazy difficult to keep up with vaccinating all these new kittens, but your cost savings have just gone *poof* because of all the extra cats to vaccinate. So vaccinating without sterilizing may appear to save money in the short term, but it is truly penny-wise and pound-foolish and only means that you will be fighting the same battle with vaccinating the street cats forever.

In contrast, while it does cost extra money up front to sterilize the cats, it also ensures that the vaccination truly has an impact on public health because it prevents the birth of future generations of unvaccinated cats. This is truly a wise investment in public health.

Your estimates of the cost to sterilize are also quite a bit higher than reality. Spay/neuter clinics that operate with volunteer vets (and there are many!)usually cite their entire cost per cat (for spay/neuter, distemper, and rabies vaccines) at an average of $15 per cat. Vaccines cost approximately $3 per animal wholesale. So figuring $3 for the rabies vaccine and $3 for the distemper vaccine (which is optional from a public health standpoint since it's not a zoonotic disease), the cost for the actual sterilization is $9 per cat - just three times more than the cost of the rabies vaccine. This means that given the number of new births (and hence the need to vaccinate these new births) prevented, the sterilization pays for itself more than three times over in just the first year.

Originally Posted by semiferal

Oral rabies programs are for wildlife. The vaccine is approved for raccoons but it seems to work on other animals too. This is how epidemics are really prevented.

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Actually, oral rabies vaccines are not approved at all in the US. In limited experimantal use some very good success has been documented in areas with outbreaks. In Europe a few larger scale programs have demonstrated some success in controlling identified outbreaks in foxes. The use of oral vaccines, administered through baiting, is highly controversial and has sound data (scientific and financial) both for and against its use.

Oral vaccines are not available to the general public at all and from what I've seen are also not available to veterinarians.

Originally Posted by semiferal

You make a valid point but there is one important thing to take into account: if you vaccinate a cat without sterilizing her, she will be giving birth to two or three litters of unvaccinated kittens per year. This means up to ten or more new cats to vaccinate per female cat, per year. Not only is it going to be crazy difficult to keep up with vaccinating all these new kittens, but your cost savings have just gone *poof* because of all the extra cats to vaccinate. So vaccinating without sterilizing may appear to save money in the short term, but it is truly penny-wise and pound-foolish and only means that you will be fighting the same battle with vaccinating the street cats forever.

In contrast, while it does cost extra money up front to sterilize the cats, it also ensures that the vaccination truly has an impact on public health because it prevents the birth of future generations of unvaccinated cats. This is truly a wise investment in public health.

Your estimates of the cost to sterilize are also quite a bit higher than reality. Spay/neuter clinics that operate with volunteer vets (and there are many!)usually cite their entire cost per cat (for spay/neuter, distemper, and rabies vaccines) at an average of $15 per cat. Vaccines cost approximately $3 per animal wholesale. So figuring $3 for the rabies vaccine and $3 for the distemper vaccine (which is optional from a public health standpoint since it's not a zoonotic disease), the cost for the actual sterilization is $9 per cat - just three times more than the cost of the rabies vaccine. This means that given the number of new births (and hence the need to vaccinate these new births) prevented, the sterilization pays for itself more than three times over in just the first year.

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Any facility providing a sterilization for $15 would have to have heavy subsidation from outside sources since that would not come close to covering the cost of providing the services (disposables, licenses, equipment, personnel, utilities, facilities, etc.) Generally low cost programs are in the $50-$100 range with standard vet rates at least double that amount (with regional variations.)

As for the cost of rabies vaccine, it is considered a controlled substance and, while there are some variations from state to state, it typically is not available to the general public. North Carolina is fairly typical, and possession of rabies vaccine by anyone other than a vet or a licensed rabies vaccinator is a criminal offense. (Licensed rabies vaccinators must be associated with a facility such as a shelter and must be individually approved by the local public health director. They then have to go through a course provided by the state. An individual rescuer or rescue group would not meet the standard criteria to get a license.) Having a rabies vaccine administered through a county program runs from $5 to $8.

I absolutely do not agree with your cost analysis and your "poof" statement demonstrates a lack of understanding of both long term cost containment and the reality of cash flow issues (generally a major concern with individual rescuers). All to often well meaning but inexperienced individuals let their ideology overwhelm the need for a realistic and practical approach to an issue.

Any facility providing a sterilization for $15 would have to have heavy subsidation from outside sources since that would not come close to covering the cost of providing the services (disposables, licenses, equipment, personnel, utilities, facilities, etc.) Generally low cost programs are in the $50-$100 range with standard vet rates at least double that amount (with regional variations.)

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Most low cost programs in my area run from $20-$50 which includes the sterilization AND rabies. Thankfully there are several feral cat advocacy groups that do provide reduced rates in my area.

Yes...it only takes one cat to put a colony at risk...but again...where are the stats on feral cats as rabies carriers?? A lot of "assumptions" are made when the evidence just doesn't support it. If there are millions of feral cats...then why am I not hearing about thousands of rabid cats?? Could it be that TNR is actually HELPING reduce the risk by getting these cats fixed AND providing the initial rabies shot?

In cases where a rabid animal is reported..it is critical to bring your cats UTD on rabies...but requiring it as a general rule over sterilization has not yet been proven to me and I will continue to emphasize sterlization for the greater good of both cats and humans.

Katie

Originally Posted by CharmsDad

Any facility providing a sterilization for $15 would have to have heavy subsidation from outside sources since that would not come close to covering the cost of providing the services (disposables, licenses, equipment, personnel, utilities, facilities, etc.) Generally low cost programs are in the $50-$100 range with standard vet rates at least double that amount (with regional variations.)

As for the cost of rabies vaccine, it is considered a controlled substance and, while there are some variations from state to state, it typically is not available to the general public. North Carolina is fairly typical, and possession of rabies vaccine by anyone other than a vet or a licensed rabies vaccinator is a criminal offense. (Licensed rabies vaccinators must be associated with a facility such as a shelter and must be individually approved by the local public health director. They then have to go through a course provided by the state. An individual rescuer or rescue group would not meet the standard criteria to get a license.) Having a rabies vaccine administered through a county program runs from $5 to $8.

I absolutely do not agree with your cost analysis and your "poof" statement demonstrates a lack of understanding of both long term cost containment and the reality of cash flow issues (generally a major concern with individual rescuers). All to often well meaning but inexperienced individuals let their ideology overwhelm the need for a realistic and practical approach to an issue.

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Well, first off, you're really jumping to conclusions by referring to me as "inexperienced". You don't know me or my credentials.

Alley Cat Allies' past newsletters have stated that $30 will pay for full vet care for one male and one female cat at their clinic. My understanding is that this clinic operates with donated space that serves as a full-service vet clinic the rest of the time and all the vets and techs volunteer their time too. This is the same basic model that is used by groups such as Operation Catnip, AZ Cats, and many others. It is neither unique nor unrealistic.

You're right that a vet has to administer the rabies vaccine but I don't see what your point is. A vet also has to be the one to sterilize the animals. Obviously the vet isn't making money off the $5 low-cost rabies vaccine so if you can get a vet to either volunteer or work for a flat hourly rate for something like this, there is no reason whatsoever why the same model cannot and should not be applied to spay/neuter.

And you didn't respond to my point about one vaccinated but unsterilized cat giving birth to two or three litters of unvaccinated kittens per year. There's no way that it is cheaper or even remotely practical to manage the potential threat of rabies in outdoor cat populations by vaccinating without sterilizing simply because you will have to go back repeatedly and vaccinate those cats' offspring, and their offspring, etc, etc.

Furthermore, from a public health standpoint companion animal overpopulation is a very significant issue in itself. The risk of animal bites, for instance, go up exponentially as animal overpopulation increases. And there are other zoonotic diseases to deal with as well - things like toxoplasmosis. While I certainly do not claim that feral cats pose a significant public health hazard, the bottom line is that public health is promoted by a stable, fully vaccinated free-roaming cat population. And common sense will tell you that a population of unsterilized cats is inherently unstable, and an unstable population is going to be difficult if not impossible to keep fully vaccinated.

Originally Posted by CharmsDad

Actually, oral rabies vaccines are not approved at all in the US. In limited experimantal use some very good success has been documented in areas with outbreaks. In Europe a few larger scale programs have demonstrated some success in controlling identified outbreaks in foxes. The use of oral vaccines, administered through baiting, is highly controversial and has sound data (scientific and financial) both for and against its use.

Oral vaccines are not available to the general public at all and from what I've seen are also not available to veterinarians.

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ORV pilot programs have been implemented with success in many parts of the US. The general public and private practice veterinarians do not need access to them - they are administered by public health officials, which include veterinarians.

ORV is licensed and approved in the US. This is what the CDC has to say about it:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabie...l/ovalvacc.htm

It is true that it is new technology, but we should be encouraging its development and implementation. Bottom line is that no one has come up with a remotely plausible alternative for vaccinating the wildlife populations that are true reservoirs for rabies.

Originally Posted by TNR1

Most low cost programs in my area run from $20-$50 which includes the sterilization AND rabies. Thankfully there are several feral cat advocacy groups that do provide reduced rates in my area.

Yes...it only takes one cat to put a colony at risk...but again...where are the stats on feral cats as rabies carriers?? A lot of "assumptions" are made when the evidence just doesn't support it. If there are millions of feral cats...then why am I not hearing about thousands of rabid cats?? Could it be that TNR is actually HELPING reduce the risk by getting these cats fixed AND providing the initial rabies shot?

In cases where a rabid animal is reported..it is critical to bring your cats UTD on rabies...but requiring it as a general rule over sterilization has not yet been proven to me and I will continue to emphasize sterlization for the greater good of both cats and humans.

Katie

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As I mentioned, if the charge is low it is because the cost is subsidized. No organization can provide surgical sterilization for $20 and remain solvent without additional sources of support.

Cats certainly ARE considered rabies risks. In the recent report I saw for our area (central North Carolina) two counties reported cats as the third highest number of cases, and one as the second highest (two animals in each of these three instances.) You're not hearing about thousands of rabid cats because aggressive public health policies have reduced this once endemic disease to a low grade chronic level. Rabies cases are measured in the dozens, not thousands. Your statement about expecting to hear about thousands of cases demonstrates a lack of understanding about the disease and public health policy. Our neighboring county has had 14 rabies cases this year, as compared to 4 in the county on the other side and 2 that I know of in our county. 14 cases is a cause for serious concern and the issue is being carefully evaluated by both the county and state officials. Declaring the county a high risk rabies area would mean NO adoptions of stray animals through local shelters or rescue groups and potentially the beginning of eradication programs for stray and feral populations of cats and dogs along with possible wildlife culling.

Sterilization of select populations of animals does NOT in any way reduce rabies risk, and has not been demonstrated to reduce overall animal overpopulation. Mid level predators are generally notorious for high reproductive rates, and sterilizing animals in a few small areas has very little effect on the overall numbers. Estimates by USDA suggest the numbers of stray and feral cats are continuing to rise and are only slightly less than the 73 million estimated to be in households.

You can believe what you wish, and I've seen you make some rather "interesting" claims in the past, so I'll leave it at that. Localized sterilization programs absolutely do have many positive benefits. Unfortunately the supporters of these programs often approach local officials in a combative manner, or make claims that are either not substantiated with reliable evidence or, worse, claims that are so easily disproved that the credibility of these supporters is shot.

Originally Posted by semiferal

ORV pilot programs have been implemented with success in many parts of the US. The general public and private practice veterinarians do not need access to them - they are administered by public health officials, which include veterinarians.

ORV is licensed and approved in the US. This is what the CDC has to say about it:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabie...l/ovalvacc.htm

It is true that it is new technology, but we should be encouraging its development and implementation. Bottom line is that no one has come up with a remotely plausible alternative for vaccinating the wildlife populations that are true reservoirs for rabies.

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READ YOUR OWN REFERENCE!!! It clearly states it is only in 11 pilot studies, (not "in many parts of the US" as you claim.) The reference also indicates THREE instances with positive results, and no claims (positive or negative) from others so far. As I said IT IS ONLY EXPERIMENTAL AT THIS TIME. IT IS NOT APPROVED FOR WIDESPREAD USE.

Originally Posted by semiferal

Well, first off, you're really jumping to conclusions by referring to me as "inexperienced". You don't know me or my credentials.

Alley Cat Allies' past newsletters have stated that $30 will pay for full vet care for one male and one female cat at their clinic. My understanding is that this clinic operates with donated space that serves as a full-service vet clinic the rest of the time and all the vets and techs volunteer their time too. This is the same basic model that is used by groups such as Operation Catnip, AZ Cats, and many others. It is neither unique nor unrealistic.

You're right that a vet has to administer the rabies vaccine but I don't see what your point is. A vet also has to be the one to sterilize the animals. Obviously the vet isn't making money off the $5 low-cost rabies vaccine so if you can get a vet to either volunteer or work for a flat hourly rate for something like this, there is no reason whatsoever why the same model cannot and should not be applied to spay/neuter.

And you didn't respond to my point about one vaccinated but unsterilized cat giving birth to two or three litters of unvaccinated kittens per year. There's no way that it is cheaper or even remotely practical to manage the potential threat of rabies in outdoor cat populations by vaccinating without sterilizing simply because you will have to go back repeatedly and vaccinate those cats' offspring, and their offspring, etc, etc.

Furthermore, from a public health standpoint companion animal overpopulation is a very significant issue in itself. The risk of animal bites, for instance, go up exponentially as animal overpopulation increases. And there are other zoonotic diseases to deal with as well - things like toxoplasmosis. While I certainly do not claim that feral cats pose a significant public health hazard, the bottom line is that public health is promoted by a stable, fully vaccinated free-roaming cat population. And common sense will tell you that a population of unsterilized cats is inherently unstable, and an unstable population is going to be difficult if not impossible to keep fully vaccinated.

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You demonstrate by your naive responses either inexperience or an unwillingness to accept certain facts. YOU told the original poster to approach local health officials about oral vaccines (which are not available outside the designated pilot studies - read your own reference from above.) YOU gave her the idea that they could be obtained by individuals (I read your post that way, and she obviously seemed to get that idea too.) YOU also indicated it was for wildlife other than raccoons, which it is not. (That is one of the concerns in the pilot studies: how to ensure getting to the targeted species.) YOU mentioned wholesale price for rabies vaccine, implying it was available to the general public.

As for answering your remark about the single animal, with your snide "poof" statement, I certainly did answer that. But to make it clear to you since you don't seem to read carefully, for $50 you can vaccinate 10 animals for rabies, or sterilize one animal (and maybe vaccinate that one too.) If it is male then it becomes less territorial and another male comes in and "poof" all your females are still pregnant and NONE are vaccinated for rabies. If it is female then she doesn't have two litters (maybe three) next year. The eight kittens she doesn't have (three surviving to adult) are replaced by adult cats migrating in from the surrounding area and "poof" you have just as many cats, but more adults are breeding (and breeding sooner) and NONE are vaccinated for rabies. And by migrating in from a different region there is a greater possibility of bringing in a disease not already present. The environment of a geographical region will generally stabilize in a balance between individual animals and their sources of food and shelter. Unless a population is geographically isolated localized sterilization programs have little effect on overall populations for mid level predators.

All to often supporters of sterilization programs ignore the real benefits of these programs and dwell on hypothetical claims which rarely are supported by fact.

I can see from these and other posts I'm dealing with zealots who have their opinions on these matters and are unwilling to listen to any thing or any one that doesn't fit into their pre-conceived notions, so I've said the last I care to on this matter.