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Ares! - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
No, it's not a proper term.
First of all, doll faced persians don't have long noses. Their noses are actually shorter than any of the regular moggy cat's. So, why should they be called long nosed? In fact, maybe show style persians should be called short nosed.
Nor is "Doll faced"

Long nosed Persians do have long noses for their breed...never said they were as long as a moggy. Some long nosed Persians I've breed have looked like Moggies though!

They are called long nosed because that's what they have, and you may call show quality persians short nosed if you would like - cos that's exactly what they have.
post #62 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Look, you might be unfamiliar with a term, but doll face persian is used by everybody in US to describe the traditional style persian cat that actually has more of a normally proportioned nose. Calling these cats long nosed would be misleading.
I'm not unfamiliar with the term I hear it at TCS all the time.

I call the long nosed persians, because that's what they are to us breeding the short nosed Persians. I have long nosed Persians & Exotics too. Ever visited my Captivating Cats thread? Some of the cats I've breed could pass off as moggies!
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeHacker
Why are these beautiful sweet faced Persians with noses not desirable for show? Why would the breed standard be peke faced? I don't think they're prettier with a Peke face. I honestly don't understand. I'm not trying to be feisty or anything. I think the older style Persian is just about the most beautiful cat on the earth, next to Bengal's of course LOL. Honestly, if I saw both types, I would prefer the older style Persian. Why would breeders try to breed out the nose? I had a peke face Persian, which I'm sure you remember, my little Stanley and loved him and thought he was beautiful, but I wish I could have an old style Persian, and I wish they would be accepted as show quality, because they are so beautiful.
Oh Hope, I'm not trying to be fiesty either!

The standard isn't "peke faced" it calls for a standard with a nose in proportion to the eyes. Of course I'm not against anyone that prefers the long nosed Persians, ALL persians are beautiful of course and anyone who has one is very lucky. Hope, your Stanley was VERY beautiful and he would have done exceptionally well in a show because of his lovely type, body etc. I loved him.
post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolcat
Gee, thanks for the offer ........hurm......"little peeing wonder" huh? Purrrhaps I will pass this time
post #65 of 87
Okay, here's the bit from the CFA standard for Head and Nose:
Quote:
HEAD: round and massive, with great breadth of skull. Round face with round underlying bone structure. Well set on a short, thick neck. Skull structure to be smooth and round to the touch and not unduly exaggerated from where the forehead begins at the top of the break to the back of the head, as well as across the breadth between the ears.

NOSE: short, snub, and broad, with "break" centered between the eyes.
The problem as I see it is where it says '"break centered between the eyes.' You can't get the break centered between the eyes (at least I don't see how) with a short nose without having an extreme face.

Problems with malformed tear ducts and constant tearing is very common among short-faced animals, especially the more extreme it gets. Also some of the very extreme (badly bred) Persians will have problems with "tipping" their tongues as they can't properly fit them into their mouths.

These are the only disqualifications I see with any relation to structure:

Quote:
DISQUALIFY: locket or button. Kinked or abnormal tail. Incorrect number of toes. Any apparent weakness in the hind quarters. Any apparent deformity of the spine. Deformity of the skull resulting in an asymmetrical face and/or head. Crossed eyes. For pointed cats, also disqualify for white toes, eye color other than blue.*
It would be better to have some sort of moderation, but I don't see it happening.
post #66 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScamperFarms
no the lines will not be related in ties at all. I am not one for inbreeding, or line breeding as it is called in the Arab world. I like to keep my lines Seperate as possible to keep out any doubleing up on possible genetic problems.

The term I have learned from many to tell between the two is Doll face and Peke face. yes all are persian, the doll face is the traditional Persian funny enough. Show ring "hot right now" or not. Some do not strive to breed the extreme Peke face, which is getting more and more extreme in some lines, and causeing major breathing problems and that is the "hot in the ring now" style. I keep my "gotta have it now" out of my horses and dogs, i will do so with my cats as well.
Aww linebreeding is wonderful. We try not to outcross too much here at Captivating.

I'm glad you feel that way. Trust me a cat with breathing troubles will NOT do well at a show. A persian with breeding troubles is very irresponsible of the breeder. Don't associate all show quality Persians with this breathing trouble crap. My cats don't suffer from breathing trouble at all and look how beautiful they are!
post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseHawke
Unless they were to write something into the standard like "penalize for extreme peke face" then the extreme cats will continue winning, and since most hobby* breeders, being human, like to win and title their cats that's what will be bred. Like Katie says about the very extreme halter Arabs that can do little else. At least the Arabs have other venues (performance, endurance, etc.) where they can prove their worth against their peers regardless of how huge their eyes are or extremely dished their faces.

*I do not mean this in a derogatory fashion, au contraire, for most their hobby is their passion.
You're kind of missing the point...Persian cats with horribly extreme faces don't WIN. Persians with sweet open expressioned faces do. See the cat on the left of my signature, Holly, she has won Best in show time after time after time and she has a sweet expressioned face and has no breathing troubles and she is NOT extreme. Extreme is when the nose pushes up past the eyes and when gutters are present.

Please I don't want to argue. I'm breeding Persian cats that are very near to the standard, it wont change

My Nana has been breeding Persians for nearly sixty years and as the standard changes she changes her breeding programme. If we end up going back fifty years to the long nosed persians then so be it.
post #68 of 87
Cindy, that's right with the nose break between the eyes!

See my girls in my signature - they are perfect examples for that sentance!
post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
Cindy, that's right with the nose break between the eyes!

See my girls in my signature - they are perfect examples for that sentance!
Not arguing, we're having a debate .

I think we might need to define our terms here. Your cats are what *I* call show type (heh, that's a no-brainer) and are more "extreme" (obviously) than the original breeding stock.

Just a point of curiosity, it may be more homogenized than I think---here's a link to pix of several of CFA's top cats (don't want to hot-link their pix) CFA TOP CATS would you say they're more extreme, less extreme, or right on compared to your Persians in NZ/Aus? I just wonder how much importing/exporting and trading of lines worldwide goes on.

edit: You mentioned "sweet open expression", I know I've seen this somewhere, but not in CFA apparently. TICA?
post #70 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseHawke
Not arguing, we're having a debate .

I think we might need to define our terms here. Your cats are what *I* call show type (heh, that's a no-brainer) and are more "extreme" (obviously) than the original breeding stock.

Just a point of curiosity, it may be more homogenized than I think---here's a link to pix of several of CFA's top cats (don't want to hot-link their pix) CFA TOP CATS would you say they're more extreme, less extreme, or right on compared to your Persians in NZ/Aus? I just wonder how much importing/exporting and trading of lines worldwide goes on.

edit: You mentioned "sweet open expression", I know I've seen this somewhere, but not in CFA apparently. TICA?
Yup mine are definitly show type and definitly extreme compared to any other persians here at TCS BUT I don't think they are extreme compared to the cats of the past years, the ones with DEEP gutters, deep set eyes etc etc. The long nosed Persians are more modern then we think. They don't have all the eye/nose problems like they did back then. that's a good thing!

Oh they are very similar to our cats. They are just right on to what we have. Very, very beautiful cats.

We have sweet open expression in our NZCF standard but even though CFA doesn't that's what they're striving for, and look at that link you sent me all those three cats have what is described as a sweet open expression. Beautiful.

I wouldn't have a clue about TICA. From what i've heard from breeders here in NZ they are no match to CFA. Which IMO is the leading cat organization of our modern world.
post #71 of 87
Cindy, this is what I & most of NZ Persian breeders will consider as extreme



This is a cat from this site here

http://www.nemr.net/~poppy1/

They consider themselves to be "Doll faced Persian breeders"

To me that cat is very extreme and that's health problems..
post #72 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
Cindy, this is what I & most of NZ Persian breeders will consider as extreme



This is a cat from this site here

http://www.nemr.net/~poppy1/

They consider themselves to be "Doll faced Persian breeders"

To me that cat is very extreme and that's health problems..
The only problem I see is that this cat is not from that site. Where on the site did you find that cat? All the cats on that site have what you would consider a long nose. THis is link to their male cats. Clearly, all of them have normally proportioned noses.
http://www.nemr.net/~poppy1/male.htm
None of their female cats look like the picture you showed either.
http://www.nemr.net/~poppy1/female.htm
And their past kittens:
http://www.nemr.net/~poppy1/bless.htm
So, I am not sure why you say this cat came from that site? I couldn't find him nowhere in there, and he/she wouldn't be considered doll faced. In fact, I don't see a nose on the picture you provided at all.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
Yup mine are definitly show type and definitly extreme compared to any other persians here at TCS BUT I don't think they are extreme compared to the cats of the past years, the ones with DEEP gutters, deep set eyes etc etc. The long nosed Persians are more modern then we think. They don't have all the eye/nose problems like they did back then. that's a good thing!

Oh they are very similar to our cats. They are just right on to what we have. Very, very beautiful cats.

We have sweet open expression in our NZCF standard but even though CFA doesn't that's what they're striving for, and look at that link you sent me all those three cats have what is described as a sweet open expression. Beautiful.

I wouldn't have a clue about TICA. From what i've heard from breeders here in NZ they are no match to CFA. Which IMO is the leading cat organization of our modern world.
Ah, then this is a good thing youngling. It has been many years since I was very interested in Persians and Himalayans, and then they WERE very extreme with noses pushed right up into their faces. Excellent

I do know that the different registries do, or at least they did, have different styles. I ran into (not literally!) a lady at PetsMart one day (buying kitty litter, what else?) and discovered that she had showed ASH (American Shorthairs) and a friend of hers would evaluate a litter and divide them up, "This one for TICA, this one for CFA, this one for ACFA," depending on where she thought each would do best.

For instance, until fairly recently, Maine Coons were definitely different between CFA and TICA, with CFA having a "sweeter" expression, and TICA very much having a wilder, more "feral" look. TICA cats couldn't win in CFA and vice versa. They've pretty much come together now.

And you must take anything I say with a grain of salt anyway. I'm just an interested spectator .
post #74 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
Aww linebreeding is wonderful. We try not to outcross too much here at Captivating.

I'm glad you feel that way. Trust me a cat with breathing troubles will NOT do well at a show. A persian with breeding troubles is very irresponsible of the breeder. Don't associate all show quality Persians with this breathing trouble crap. My cats don't suffer from breathing trouble at all and look how beautiful they are!

I am glad you like line breeding. For me personaly its not something I choose to do. I MIGHT MIGHT line breed my one mare, because her lines are very hard to cross well if you dont line bred. But I have seen so many lines of horses and dogs go BAD because people dont know the diffrence between Line breeding, and IN breeding. thats a whole diffrent topic. But hey as long as you guys know what your doing, and are getting good results. more power! I wont argue with you. Just something I myself shy away from. Heck if we didnt outcross, in the Arabian world we wouldnt have what we call the Golden crosses

I did not mean to make a general sweeping statement. I do not blame all show people, that it for sure. That would be unfair of a statement. But i have seen some that make me just want to cry. And I do agree anyone who has the joy of owning a persian is lucky lucky lucky.
post #75 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseHawke
Ah, then this is a good thing youngling. It has been many years since I was very interested in Persians and Himalayans, and then they WERE very extreme with noses pushed right up into their faces. Excellent

I do know that the different registries do, or at least they did, have different styles. I ran into (not literally!) a lady at PetsMart one day (buying kitty litter, what else?) and discovered that she had showed ASH (American Shorthairs) and a friend of hers would evaluate a litter and divide them up, "This one for TICA, this one for CFA, this one for ACFA," depending on where she thought each would do best.

For instance, until fairly recently, Maine Coons were definitely different between CFA and TICA, with CFA having a "sweeter" expression, and TICA very much having a wilder, more "feral" look. TICA cats couldn't win in CFA and vice versa. They've pretty much come together now.

And you must take anything I say with a grain of salt anyway. I'm just an interested spectator .
I am very interested in what you are saying. We have two fancies in NZ. The leading NZCF and the rebel Catz In. That was started by a group of people who didn't like the NZCF strict rules and guidelines and judges training. At Catz Inc you don't even have to have a cat to become a cat judge or even have any prior knowledge!

Oh the extreme look like you described is definitly not favoured and you know how much I love persians but I think when it starts looking like that it gets very ugly!

Maine Coons are a fairly new breed here and we only have a handful of breeders I think but they are doing very well!

Nice chatting to you. Always interesting to hear what goes in other fancies.
post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat

He is beautiful without a doubt and I just love him, but I don't think Jasper would . Even though I am drooling at Ares and wanted a persian badly I think I had better call it quits while I am ahead. We have a balance right now, but he is certainly a beautiful boy and I love his "mr mischief" expression too! Is he playing the "touch my tummy and see what happens?" game . Thanks for showing me a close up of him....sigh.....So many kittys, so little time (and money and space)
post #77 of 87
Yep. The little bugger is a DOLL but he LOVES anything under the covers that moves! He's isolated in my bedroom and bathroom. Well he was until he discovered he could slip out under the door. **sigh** Katie is going to have SO much fun with this little guy. He's beautiful and sweet and soft and has the softest "mew".

~ Charity, the caregiver this week of Ares.
post #78 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by carolcat
He is beautiful without a doubt and I just love him, but I don't think Jasper would . Even though I am drooling at Ares and wanted a persian badly I think I had better call it quits while I am ahead. We have a balance right now, but he is certainly a beautiful boy and I love his "mr mischief" expression too! Is he playing the "touch my tummy and see what happens?" game . Thanks for showing me a close up of him....sigh.....So many kittys, so little time (and money and space)
Scaredy so looooves other cats. He adores my other cat, and constantly grooms him... I am sure Jasper will like him.

P.S. I am not really giving him up, though.
post #79 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffysimba
Yep. The little bugger is a DOLL but he LOVES anything under the covers that moves! He's isolated in my bedroom and bathroom. Well he was until he discovered he could slip out under the door. **sigh** Katie is going to have SO much fun with this little guy. He's beautiful and sweet and soft and has the softest "mew".

~ Charity, the caregiver this week of Ares.
He sounds like fun.
post #80 of 87
OH he is super fun. It's been fun keeping Ares here this week. I sure will miss him. However, I have my OWN Persian coming later this month. He's going to be a premiership which I will show.
post #81 of 87
Thread Starter 
I cant wait til hes home! YAY!
post #82 of 87
I know a toy you need to get him at petsmart. It has a fuzzy ball and feathers and bells attached to a string. that's attached to a wire long thing and that is attached to a "thing" with suction cups to hook it somewhere. He LOVES it!!!
post #83 of 87
Thread Starter 
LOL find me a name if you can :P
post #84 of 87
I don't have a name. If I can find it at petsmart I'll just buy it and send it.
post #85 of 87
Thread Starter 
teeheheh that works too!
post #86 of 87
He is beautiful!!!
post #87 of 87
Thread Starter 
aww thank you. I love him to bits! I have another one i am gonna post of him from today in my scamperfarms thread
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