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Never heard of birth control or abortion?

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
All of Germany is in an uproar over this story: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html
How could somebody even think of killing newborn babies? Birth control is pretty much covered by health insurance, abortion is legal, and thousands of people are waiting to adopt babies. You can even "abandon" them anonymously.
As the article states, this isn't an isolated case, either.
post #2 of 26
That's unbelievable. To do it once is one thing, but NINE times???!
post #3 of 26
I couldn't even read the entire story....this is just outrageous and disgusting . There's a special place in hell for anyone who would do that when there are SO many other options out there.
post #4 of 26
how can they not know about that stuff? and the lengths they are going to hide it..they KNOW its wrong....poor little ones.
post #5 of 26
OMG! how aweful!!
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
The woman, 39, has admitted having the babies, but claims she doesn't remember what happened because of her alcohol abuse. She's been charged with nine counts of manslaughter.
post #7 of 26
I would have to hazard an assumption that the woman who did this 9 times likely has a mental wellness issue.

When you are thinking irrationally, the options are not clear to you at all...

Where were her supports? the father? her family?
post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
I would have to hazard an assumption that the woman who did this 9 times likely has a mental wellness issue.

When you are thinking irrationally, the options are not clear to you at all...

Where were her supports? the father? her family?
Her mother, older sister, and her sister's s.o. occupy the house on whose property the remains were found. Nothing has been reported about the father(s) of the infants killed. I, too, think that the woman is probably mentally ill, but I'm sure that question will be left to the "experts".
post #9 of 26
Does Germany have the system or laws we have? Doctors are suppposed to report abuse , so are teachers. Who delivered the babies? didn't they notice that this women didn't have any children when they delivered the next. Also does Germany has the system that some of our states have? The system is a mother can drop off her baby at a hospital ( and I think a church or police station) and say she is giving up her baby. She will not be prosocuted. Are there social workers in Germany? Just wondering?
post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover7731
Does Germany have the system or laws we have? Doctors are suppposed to report abuse , so are teachers. Who delivered the babies? didn't they notice that this women didn't have any children when they delivered the next. Also does Germany has the system that some of our states have? The system is a mother can drop off her baby at a hospital ( and I think a church or police station) and say she is giving up her baby. She will not be prosocuted. Are there social workers in Germany? Just wondering?
This woman apparently delivered at home. Alone.
post #11 of 26
Come on.... this is just sick!!
post #12 of 26
Ok I havn't read it, just your comments...and I am mad and very sad. I was just talking with a woman today whos daughter is having a lot of difficulty getting pregnant and they are all very sad. I deffinately say mental illness or this is the most cold hearted person ever!
post #13 of 26
Quote:
How could somebody even think of killing newborn babies? Birth control is pretty much covered by health insurance, abortion is legal, and thousands of people are waiting to adopt babies. You can even "abandon" them anonymously.

Isn't abortion basically KILLING babies as well??? I really want to know the difference between a tri-mester abortion of a "fetus" and an 8-week old NEWBORN"baby"

I don't swallow the "fetus isn't REALLY a baby thing", and if a premie and a tri-mester baby are around the same age why is it o.k to kill the baby inside the mother's belly but not once it takes it's first breath of air?

Also the argument that a baby in the womb cannot survive on its' own can be applied to a newborn baby too. What newborn do you know of that is capable of sustaining its own life??


No wonder some individuals (teens in particular) are giving birth and then killing their children. The lines are getting more and more blurred to what is "murder" and what is "abortion". If the teen had gone to a doctor and had the baby killed before it popped out, then it would be o.k. But if she does it herself, it is murder
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover67
Isn't abortion basically KILLING babies as well??? I really want to know the difference between a tri-mester abortion of a "fetus" and an 8-week old NEWBORN"baby"

I don't swallow the "fetus isn't REALLY a baby thing", and if a premie and a tri-mester baby are around the same age why is it o.k to kill the baby inside the mother's belly but not once it takes it's first breath of air?

Also the argument that a baby in the womb cannot survive on its' own can be applied to a newborn baby too. What newborn do you know of that is capable of sustaining its own life??


No wonder some individuals (teens in particular) are giving birth and then killing their children. The lines are getting more and more blurred to what is "murder" and what is "abortion". If the teen had gone to a doctor and had the baby killed before it popped out, then it would be o.k. But if she does it herself, it is murder
There is no sense making this a pro choice/ anti choice debate..no one ever is swayed from their opinion. What I do want to point out is that this is not a new crime. I read many years ago that they dredged one of the Great Lakes (can't recall which one) and they found scores of dead baby remains, that were about 100 years old. Of course women then had little choice (back alley) and little birth control choice. For some reason men only used condoms with prostitutes, and even condoms were not readily available.
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover67
Isn't abortion basically KILLING babies as well??? I really want to know the difference between a tri-mester abortion of a "fetus" and an 8-week old NEWBORN"baby"

I don't swallow the "fetus isn't REALLY a baby thing", and if a premie and a tri-mester baby are around the same age why is it o.k to kill the baby inside the mother's belly but not once it takes it's first breath of air?

Also the argument that a baby in the womb cannot survive on its' own can be applied to a newborn baby too. What newborn do you know of that is capable of sustaining its own life??


No wonder some individuals (teens in particular) are giving birth and then killing their children. The lines are getting more and more blurred to what is "murder" and what is "abortion". If the teen had gone to a doctor and had the baby killed before it popped out, then it would be o.k. But if she does it herself, it is murder
You don't have to swallow anything though. You can choose not to have an abortion. This is your right. But I am glad that we have the choice as individuals whether or not to be responsible and not bring an unwanted being into the world. The key here is individual choice.

Killing a child is illegal for many reasons. We don't want to advocate putting the women at risk for carrying a child to full term and giving birth in unsanitary conditions. An abortion is done in a clinical sterile setting with physical and emotional supports at the ready.
We can't possibly contribute to such an anarchistic possibility as condoning "murder" as this is exactly what it is called, for legal purposes.
I wouldn't say the line is blurred. Its very black and white for exactly these reasons.

And, most abortions are performed in the first trimester. A fetus at that stage would have a severely limited mortality rate. It isn't a full term baby.

And please don't try and say that the new epidemic with teens is killing their newborn children. Do you know how many young women were butchered before Roe. v Wade via back alley abortions? How many young women were sent away in shame to have their children in secret? Is this a better alternative?
post #16 of 26
Oh no..Is this going to turn into an unresolved pro life/pro choice argument?
post #17 of 26
Back to the original story..... at what point should the fathers be liable? If this woman is mentally ill, does that affect her ability to give consent? Also, if she is that ill, she must be unable to work, so is she on social support? And if so, where were her conservators. I would be interested to hear more about her mental state, IQ, etc. The fact that she gives birth repeatedly without medical attention is so unusual, lots must be wrong with her! ....sigh...how can she keep getting pg.? It seems that delivering on her own would put her at risk for reproductive damage; a very, very sad but interesting story.
post #18 of 26
Apparently evidence of this is poping up all over. Did you guys get to the end of the article where they started listing other cases that have come up recently.



And interesting about dredging the lake and finding all of those remains, I guess it goes to show, this isnt a new problem. Poor little souls, I hope they are happy and have plenty of fursouls to play with.
post #19 of 26
i can definitely see a difference in terminating a pregnancy early on and killing a baby after it is born. for me, abortion would not be a choice i would make barring some extremely dire circumstances, but i have no desire to take the option of one away from others. i can understand a woman who isn't ready or can't support a child, etc. prefering abortion early on to giving up a newborn to strangers and knowing that there will always be a part of them out there they will not know. especially if they plan to have children at some later point. i'm not saying i necessarily agree, but i understand. what i don't understand is allowing a child to be born, take its first breaths of air, perhaps more than that and then killing it because it's not "wanted." there are too many people out there who can't have children of their own or who would otherwise be more than willing to adopt these children. i really hope the woman who did this 9 times IS mentally ill rather than just a cold-blooded killer. although how could her family not have had a clue?
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
Okay, an update. The woman was married for 20 years. She had three children, and then became "overwhelmed" when she became pregnant for the 4th time. She killed that baby, and all subsequent ones fathered by her husband. She concealed the pregnancies from everybody, and never went to a doctor. After the divorce, she had a child (living) by another man. She moved a lot, so now all her previous residences are being checked. She buried the bodies in an aquarium and flower pots, and took them with her whenever she moved. Her nephew spotted the aquarium in a garage where she was storing things, emptied it, and called the police when he discovered bones.
The woman claims she "doesn't believe" in birth control, and would have found it "too embarrassing" to put the babies up for adoption. Why she didn't just leave them at a hospital or police station, as it's perfectly legal to, is still unanswered. Abortions are legal in the first trimester here; later only if the woman's life is at risk.There hasn't been any information on whether she worked or was on welfare.
post #21 of 26
A couple of years ago, the abandoned contents of a storage locker were auctioned off, in Safford AZ. The new owner was going through the items, looking for salable stuff, when he found what he initially thought was a doll. It was, in reality, the mummified remains of a full-term baby.

Police were called in and the rest of the lockers contents were investigated. Two or three more mummified babies were found. Law enforcement was able to trace the renter of the locker to Pennsylvania. DNA proved the babies were hers. She also had five or six living children.

The woman had carried those remains, from state to state, for many years. I believe that all of the babies were born, in the 1980s. She abandoned the locker, about 5 years, before it was auctioned. Since it was believed that she gave birth and killed the babies, in New York State, she was returned there for trial, found guilty and sentenced to a long prison term.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
There hasn't been any information on whether she worked or was on welfare.

I may be missing something, but why is this pertinent?
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
Okay, an update. The woman was married for 20 years. She had three children, and then became "overwhelmed" when she became pregnant for the 4th time. She killed that baby, and all subsequent ones fathered by her husband. She concealed the pregnancies from everybody, and never went to a doctor. After the divorce, she had a child (living) by another man. She moved a lot, so now all her previous residences are being checked. She buried the bodies in an aquarium and flower pots, and took them with her whenever she moved. Her nephew spotted the aquarium in a garage where she was storing things, emptied it, and called the police when he discovered bones.
The woman claims she "doesn't believe" in birth control, and would have found it "too embarrassing" to put the babies up for adoption. Why she didn't just leave them at a hospital or police station, as it's perfectly legal to, is still unanswered. Abortions are legal in the first trimester here; later only if the woman's life is at risk.There hasn't been any information on whether she worked or was on welfare.
Some people are just unbelivable! She didn't believe in birth control, so she murdered these poor babies she kept on having? How sick is that? I hope they lock this freak of nature up and trow away the keys
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
Okay, an update. The woman was married for 20 years. She had three children, and then became "overwhelmed" when she became pregnant for the 4th time. She killed that baby, and all subsequent ones fathered by her husband. She concealed the pregnancies from everybody, and never went to a doctor. After the divorce, she had a child (living) by another man. She moved a lot, so now all her previous residences are being checked. She buried the bodies in an aquarium and flower pots, and took them with her whenever she moved. Her nephew spotted the aquarium in a garage where she was storing things, emptied it, and called the police when he discovered bones.
The woman claims she "doesn't believe" in birth control, and would have found it "too embarrassing" to put the babies up for adoption. Why she didn't just leave them at a hospital or police station, as it's perfectly legal to, is still unanswered. Abortions are legal in the first trimester here; later only if the woman's life is at risk.There hasn't been any information on whether she worked or was on welfare.

Too embarrassing!!, wow that woman is seriously disturbed. Babies aren't disposable they are a human life!. Sounds like this woman needed to learn how to take responsibility for her own actions or learn to keep her legs closed. Hearing stuff like this just sickens me.
post #25 of 26
Originally Posted by jcat
There hasn't been any information on whether she worked or was on welfare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
I may be missing something, but why is this pertinent?

Just a guess: if she were in the workplace, you'd think someone would notice she was pregnant, and then not - lots of times.
post #26 of 26
At 1st I wondered if it was Machausuen(sp?) by Proxy but given the new info, it does not seem possible. I think what she did was horrible but I once treated a young woman in the ER who had left her newborn infant in a public washroom - I managed to get her to tell me where and the baby was saved. But this young woman was also overwhelmed and needed mega help! She was a univ student but had lost complete perspective and sense of reality. She came from a home of religious people who would have prob given her a very hard time (her thoughts anyway) if she had told them - she lived away from home. She was referred for psychiatric help and to date, has been doing fine. But I do not think any of us should be too quick to judge others.

That said, nine seems unbelievable!!!! And where was her family?????
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