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Moggys are the best - Page 3

post #61 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
But, what matters is the concept. You say you have a choice to own whatever cat you want, well, that's your perogative, but I feel like what individuals do when they make the choice on what their cat looks like, etc, is that they are treating these wonderful living creatures as a market, a commodity, a designer object. No, preventing responsible breeding wouldn't solve the overpopulation problem by itself, I agree with you there. But as I said in my last post and was wildly misconstrued is that by allowing your average pet-owner layman this choice, you are furthering the belief that these animals are property, something to be chosen, and then, in many cases, thrown out. When we further that belief, we further the belief that we can play God with them. Have I lost you yet? It's like a lot of things: something small and seemingly harmless contributes to a really horrible belief system being reinforced. I feel like the whole attitude needs to be changed, and that begins with ending the idea that we can have this perfect kitten created for us. When people adopt children, they don't say, well, I want a caucasian, blue eyed, brown haired child who likes soccer and reading and is generally laid back. That's absurd! And yet, this is the way we treat our animals. If we treated our animals the way we treat people, well, then shelters would be the only option. And like the amount of children without parents, the amount of pets without homes is shameful.

Personally, I feel that breeding reinforces the whole ludicrous notion that we own animals, that they should serve some purpose (especially aesthetic) beyond good company and a loving companion to meet our own needs and that we as humans can control animals and choose animals and dismiss animals. This whole belief is I think what fuels the neglect and mistreatment of animals that you refer to...you can extrapolate that out even further and take a look at the meat and dairy industries! Eek! I think this to be one of the most disappointing aspects of our society. As Gandhi said, the value of a society can be measured by how we treat our animals.

You're probably sitting there going, Now she's gone and done it. We went from debating the merits of shelters and responsible breeding and now we're having this philosophical response about the treatment of animals. I just feel that they are strongly, strongly connected. I feel that more than the action itself, it's the attitude that is born from that action. I'm not saying that anyone here doesn't absolutely love their cats, because I KNOW that everyone here on TCS is a wonderful, loving and informed cat parent. And I know that some moggy parents do the mistreatment and backyard breeding...though, I doubt they were adopted from shelters, as every shelter I have ever seen spays and neuters all of its animals. And yes, I realize that statistically, purebreds aren't the actual, tangible problem. Basically, my point is this: The overpopulation problem is one that results from careless treatment of animals. I think we all agree on this and we all believe that it is so wrong. I think, however, that careless treatment of animals results from the notion that these animals are disposable and owned property, like a pair of shoes or a TV. I think that breeding and making cat ownership an open market with these choices is one of the many things (alone with poor education of pet-owners) that fuels this belief. If we left the choice to responsible, progressive, well-informed shelters, the attitude would eventually change.
Legally, pets are considered property. Yes, I can get a cat I prefer based on ceirtain looks and personality traits I want from a breeder. But I imagine people who go to a shelter do exactly the same thing-they look for appearance and personality of a mixed breed cat they want (within limits). Most people who get their cat from a shelter don't just grab the first one they see either.
So, what's the difference?
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScamperFarms
Funny thing..you say breeders make it an open market?not a GOOD BREEDER. A good breeder is more selective of their home for their kitten than any shelter i have ever been too. Rescue groups are diffrent most of them DO interview.

A friend wanted me to pick out a cat for her at the shelter, since i am good with cats. So i did. they asked a small series of questions, didnt verify the information, took my money and i took the kitten. yes kitten, unfixed..with voucher to get him fixed. its in their contract you have to have it done within x amount of time. did they ever follow that up? Nope. is the animal fixed, yes but they didnt bother to check on that and my friend didnt use the voucher. she gave it to someone with less income than her.

Another friend, also wanted me to pick up a kitty for her, so i went to petsmart....filled out the paperwork..showed my id.....and got a kitty. boy oh boy...how do they know i am not a collector? again....no follow up phone call. the kittie was fixed. but personally i would call someone i never met who took my kitty.

However, The breeder i bought my girls from, emailed me the next day once they were shipped to see how they were. And we have been in contact since.

The point i am trying to make is, yes laws need to be changed. But you cant blame breeders for making the cat market so open. Shelters are just as easy to blame, with "whoeever comes in and takes this cat off our hands and gives us the money" theory. and it happens ALOT.

Also...i take offense to the fact that your stateing breeders, breed for the pleasing looks. Look is just ONE part of it. Personality is another, cat breeds ARE DIFFRENT. trying to breed out genetic troubles is another...there is ALOT more that goes into breeding than "Looks"

but i guess i am one of the bad people anyways, i raise horses, dogs and kitties...Oh my.
Wow, I have never once been to a shelter in my life that a) adopted out any unfixed animals and b) didn't do follow-ups and home visits. even though I am staff at one of the shelters I adopted from, I still was subject to a full interview, background check and a home visit. I have never once in my life heard of these less responsible shelters! Perhaps they too are a large part of the problem.
post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Wow, I have never once been to a shelter in my life that a) adopted out any unfixed animals and b) didn't do follow-ups and home visits. even though I am staff at one of the shelters I adopted from, I still was subject to a full interview, background check and a home visit. I have never once in my life heard of these less responsible shelters! Perhaps they too are a large part of the problem.

I would say they are. I have been to many, and know people who have been to many. sad to say I think that these shelters outnumber the other shelters. they just want to get the pets out, and homed. Steve told me his local shelter where he grew up. you walked in handed them 20 bucks for a cat, any cat you left with a cat...

$30 you walked out with a dog.
post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
Wow, I have never once been to a shelter in my life that a) adopted out any unfixed animals and b) didn't do follow-ups and home visits. even though I am staff at one of the shelters I adopted from, I still was subject to a full interview, background check and a home visit. I have never once in my life heard of these less responsible shelters! Perhaps they too are a large part of the problem.
Then you've been lucky. Unfortunately, I've seen many shelters that do that, because they're underfunded and simply overwhelmed by the number of animals.
post #65 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScamperFarms
I would say they are. I have been to many, and know people who have been to many. sad to say I think that these shelters outnumber the other shelters. they just want to get the pets out, and homed. Steve told me his local shelter where he grew up. you walked in handed them 20 bucks for a cat, any cat you left with a cat...

$30 you walked out with a dog.
That is disgusting.

Wow.

I stand by my argument that we need a whole-scale attitude change here. But shelters that just let these cats go? I had quite a bit of trouble adopting Leo...they actually went through bank totals and requested all of my financial info, since I'm a student under 21. I have never heard of a shelter like the ones you speak of. Even Chicago Animal Care and Control does follow-ups!

And, elizwithcat, I feel like I've personally offended you, though I strived to remain as anonymous as possible in my arguments. I really feel like the fact that we can just create cats to be what we want them to be is a terrible gesture with the amount of abuse and neglect and overpopulation that happens. Like I said, you and the breeders have your hearts in the right places and treat cats with so much respect, but think of what it does. Breeders may not want to make an open cat market, but the thing that creates an open market is choice, and breeders supply that choice whether they mean to or not. And I agree with you that breeder, especially responsible ones, are not the whole problem. But they're part of it, as I see it, just in teh sense that they create kittens for people while so many perish in kill shelters and the streets. There are so many things we could be doing to solve these probems. In a perfect world, every shelter would be like Treehouse (feel free to click on the link in my siggy, I think that many of you would really enjoy looking at that site...it's completely newly redesigned)

Also, the person who told me to look into my undergrad genetics course, I'm not a science major, but I'm a book nerd: when you breed lines that have such closely related attributes, even when they're from different genetic lines, you run a much greater risk for genetic deformities and genetic illnesses. For instance, like the royal lines in old Spain, England and France all looked like rodents and died of genetic diseases after hundred of years of almost-inbreeding. To create the most healthy, hearty specimens, you want the greatest amount of diversity between th especimens. Thereofre, the absoltuely most hearty breeds would be to cross, say, a Russian Blue with a Maine Coon. Moggies with Moggies follow, then like breed with like breed. I actually did a little bit of background research to make sure I wouldn't sound like a total retard, and purebreds do run the greatest risk for genetic problems, stastically. Not to make anyone angry, but I wanted to clarify
post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
That is disgusting.

Wow.

I stand by my argument that we need a whole-scale attitude change here. But shelters that just let these cats go? I had quite a bit of trouble adopting Leo...they actually went through bank totals and requested all of my financial info, since I'm a student under 21. I have never heard of a shelter like the ones you speak of. Even Chicago Animal Care and Control does follow-ups!

And, elizwithcat, I feel like I've personally offended you, though I strived to remain as anonymous as possible in my arguments. I really feel like the fact that we can just create cats to be what we want them to be is a terrible gesture with the amount of abuse and neglect and overpopulation that happens. Like I said, you and the breeders have your hearts in the right places and treat cats with so much respect, but think of what it does. Breeders may not want to make an open cat market, but the thing that creates an open market is choice, and breeders supply that choice whether they mean to or not. And I agree with you that breeder, especially responsible ones, are not the whole problem. But they're part of it, as I see it, just in teh sense that they create kittens for people while so many perish in kill shelters and the streets. There are so many things we could be doing to solve these probems. In a perfect world, every shelter would be like Treehouse (feel free to click on the link in my siggy, I think that many of you would really enjoy looking at that site...it's completely newly redesigned)

Also, the person who told me to look into my undergrad genetics course, I'm not a science major, but I'm a book nerd: when you breed lines that have such closely related attributes, even when they're from different genetic lines, you run a much greater risk for genetic deformities and genetic illnesses. For instance, like the royal lines in old Spain, England and France all looked like rodents and died of genetic diseases after hundred of years of almost-inbreeding. To create the most healthy, hearty specimens, you want the greatest amount of diversity between th especimens. Thereofre, the absoltuely most hearty breeds would be to cross, say, a Russian Blue with a Maine Coon. Moggies with Moggies follow, then like breed with like breed. I actually did a little bit of background research to make sure I wouldn't sound like a total retard, and purebreds do run the greatest risk for genetic problems, stastically. Not to make anyone angry, but I wanted to clarify
Guess you are lucky than. but to me, its the un-educated who do not s/n that are the problem. not breeders. as its been stated, purebred cats are 1%..1%that is such a small number. Lets focus on better laws, and regulations for moggies. I love my moggies I do. But i think there needs to be better education for S/N.. what about the goverment funding more programs? I know our goverment is streched as it is, yada yada. But if they stepped up to the plate and helped educate and helped lower income people be able to afford to have their pets S/N it would help! more than telling breeders, oh "well you cant breed more than x amount" an repsonsible breeder, only breeds a certain amount. Anyways.

And face it, in a perfect world no one would care about bloodline, genetic, look. But we dont live in a perfect world. and some people will plain old NOT get a mix breed. so if they didnt have purebreds to choose from, they would just..not have a kitty. that doesnt help the kitty sitting int he shelter anymore than if they bought the purebred from the breeder.

And geneticaly speaking, yes the royal lines were in bred. yuck. but you can stay away from that without outcrossing to much. the problem if you cross one purebred with another, of a diffrent breed, is you can also breed the Worst of the gentic traits of BOTH parents in. Its a gamble.

Ah well. I still wont be held up as selfish for being a breeder, and preserveing what i belive in. Because I also have a home full of moggies, and my moggies do now, and always will out number my Purebreds. cause there is always room for one more at this Inn.
post #67 of 75
This is not pro or con, it is just my story...
From early childhood, I have never been without a moggy in my life. The ever changing variety of sizes, shapes, colors & personalities, that nature shares with us thru moggies, has always been joyful surprise to me.

After my beloved moggy tabby died at 16, I decided to adopt again. I had no expectations about what my new kitties would look like or what their personalities would be. I knew that if I was patient...they would show me who they are & what they need, to reach their full potential. I was patient... they have shown me.
Sadie & Dexter...my sweet moggies.
Lei
post #68 of 75
Re: I just think that to purchase a cat from a breeder, one looks out for themselves more than they look out for the well-being of the entire cat population. and I am not going to comment on comparing my or anyone's Siamese to an SUV, wow!! That's seriously misunderstanding ther issue. My cat is not a commodity - she is my furbaby!! A cat is a lifetime committment - sort of like planning a cxhild, for me anyway. One has to think of the cat!! And just as a human adoption agency needs to know whether a child will fit in with a certain family, so too do reputable breeders and kitty adoption agencies need to be sure a human will be a good fit for the cat.

I would never adopt a cat based on MY feelings!! But they do count for something since this cat will have to live with me for the rest of his or her life. Now, I have had many wonderful cats (all moggies) choose me by virtue of the fact I rescued them or they appeared at my doorstep hungry and cold and I took them in. I did not care what breed they were, who their mama was, what their opedigree was. I love moggies as much as my Siamese but at this moment in time, she is truly soecial to me. I am at a period in my life when I wanted a Siamese because I know I lead the kind of lifestyle that blends with the Siamese personality. (and I LOVE amnd ADORE the breed).

I have an adopted brother - and in the process my folks were offered twin girls but having 3 daughters already, they really wanted a boy. That is no different than going to a kitty adoption agency and asking for a female Siamese. It is in the best interests of a catvto find a human who can best care for that cat!!

Anyway - that's all I am saying. We all love cats here and I am old enough to know where's life's curves can take you. I mourn my many moggies - and their kittens (one litter born in my bed!) and the kittens I hand reared when their mama was killed by a car. I make no apologies for now having a loving Siamese and fiostering 2 wonderful Sphynxes. I love all cats!! I wold even taken in a Persian if I had to, lol
post #69 of 75
I wanted to adopt a tabby cat, but I went to look at some kittens from someone who should have had their cat spayed. Oliver crawled into my lap. I was in love with a tuxedo kitten. I remember saying to Oliver when he was a little kitten "Ollie, I can't wait to see what kind of cat you turn out to be." He turned out to be a wonderful honey-kitty.

Tripod was a found kitten. How could I not adopt a kitten who was trying to be so ferocious until I touched him? He started purring instantly.

I will always own "moggies."
post #70 of 75
At the risk of opening a can of worms - The pedigrees/purebreds in shelters have often had it just as bad as any moggy. Just to give an example - how many Persians are dumped at shelters because grooming them is "too much work"? Or Maine Coons because of dental or heart problems (that might just be a problem here because of inbreeding)? Or sometimes just because their breed is "out"? That's what bothers me about people who say they only take moggies "as a matter of principle". I'd much rather hear them say, "I only take shelter cats/dogs as a matter of principle."
I agree with those who say that some people, given the choice between moggy or no cat when their favorite "purebred" isn't available, will choose "no cat". Demonizing pedigrees or responsible breeders isn't very helpful.
post #71 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
At the risk of opening a can of worms - The pedigrees/purebreds in shelters have often had it just as bad as any moggy. Just to give an example - how many Persians are dumped at shelters because grooming them is "too much work"? Or Maine Coons because of dental or heart problems (that might just be a problem here because of inbreeding)? Or sometimes just because their breed is "out"? That's what bothers me about people who say they only take moggies "as a matter of principle". I'd much rather hear them say, "I only take shelter cats/dogs as a matter of principle."
I agree with those who say that some people, given the choice between moggy or no cat when their favorite "purebred" isn't available, will choose "no cat". Demonizing pedigrees or responsible breeders isn't very helpful.
You're right. I said I would always have moggies because I prefer to own "rescued" cats; however, if a purebreed needed rescuing and I had room for another cat, I would adopt and love him/her.
post #72 of 75
Well IMO A kitty is a kitty I have had a red point and a seal siomes and I now have a ginger Moggy I have grown up with both types as well and they all love to be petted and fed and cuddled and poop and leave hair all over you other than looks and my own personal pref to how a kitty looks I dont think there is any diff I love them all but thats just my opinion
post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
... I feel sort of like having to have your Old-Style Siamese when down at the local kill-shelter there are perfectly wonderful animals being put down, well, to me that's like driving an SUV in the middle of a war for oil (which is a whole different thread, believe me). It's something we don't NEED, it's purely a want, but we do it anyway, despite the fact that we're not helping an existing problem.
I think this is an overgeneralization ... most people who contact me want a kitten that "is like the cat I had growing up" or a kitten which evokes fond memories for them somehow. It isn't about having a status symbol or satisfying a need to keep up with the Joneses. Purchasing a kitten from a breeder also gives them a few certainties they wouldn't get when adopting from a shelter or rescue. They know without a doubt the kitten's ancestry and how those cats lived/died. They are able to meet the sire and dam and know from looking at them how large or how small the kitten may become as an adult. They know from discussing with the breeder what traits their individual kitten displayed as a baby and how the personality was passed from the parents. They can be assured the kitten is healthy and free from the issues and problems that exist with shelter cats. Most reputable breeders offer a health guarantee and a No-Questions Return policy. What happens when a person adopts a shelter kitty and then after some period of time it is determined the cat is sick? Does the shelter then pay 100% of the vet bills? Does the shelter offer advice, encouragement and emotional support at 4AM when a kitten is sick? Does the shelter personally get out of bed at Oh-God-Thirty in the morning, change out of their pajamas and take the kitten and her owner to the vet, driving sometimes hours to get there when a kitten must go through strenuous emergency treatment or surgery? And does the shelter offer a strong shoulder or even a box of flippin' tissues when the grief of loss is at hand? Does the shelter provide any of these things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lionessrampant
I don't think I'm calling to an end to all breeding for the rest of forever, but I feel like laws must be waaaaaay more stringent, better enforced, the number of responsible breeders needs to be kept down, backyard breeders should be more harshly punished, TNR programs need to be implemented, etc, etc, etc. Stopping breeding isn't the only solution, but I feel that the standard MUST be that we all adopt from shelters. Breeders, I feel, should only be contacted very rarely, if ever, until we've found a better way to treat our homeless animals and keep their population down.
This just makes me so very, very mad. It is so closed-minded of you that it actually hurts me to read it. Try looking at the larger picture instead of focusing on just one little corner of it. Do you honestly think that by placing even more restrictions and yes, even laws on breeders that the BYB problem will be eliminated? Or that the numbers of needy homeless animals will somehow magically decrease overnight??? Please! Spare me the rant. Laws and ordinances just keep the honest people honest, but they won't stop the dishonest ones from raking in all they can while standing on the backs of those of us who DO practice responsibility and oh - here's a good word for you ... accountability.

I've said it before and I am certain I will say it again ... responsible breeders are not the problem. It is the people who prescribe to a throw-away mentality and who do not practice responsible spay/neuter on their non-pedigreed domestic cats. Until we reach those people and change the way they perceive pets, we will not even begin to scratch the surface.
post #74 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Legally, pets are considered property. Yes, I can get a cat I prefer based on ceirtain looks and personality traits I want from a breeder. But I imagine people who go to a shelter do exactly the same thing-they look for appearance and personality of a mixed breed cat they want (within limits). Most people who get their cat from a shelter don't just grab the first one they see either.
So, what's the difference?

i don't consider my cats property but family and they are my friends.

i didn't choose either of my babies based on looks, they chose me.

i guess the thing i don't like about buying a purebred is, you could be spending $300 on a cat, a different looking cat yes, but still just a cat that will definately get a home, meanwhile, there could be a moggy on death row who really needs a home and because someone is wanting a certain look in a cat the other one dies, that's what upsets me.

i can afford a purebred or three if i wanted but that isn't the issue, all cats are the same in my eye's, it's there personality that counts most.

bonnie and pandy are the most loving, gentle, funny and cute cats ever and they are moggy's, ive always had moggy's and they have the most fantastic personality's.

i'm a mix of different races ,German, Spanish, English and mostly Australian so i guess that makes me a moggy too


in the end it's each to their own but i think it's silly to want just "purebreds" when there are so many cats that really need a home.
post #75 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandybear
i don't consider my cats property but family and they are my friends.

i didn't choose either of my babies based on looks, they chose me.

i guess the thing i don't like about buying a purebred is, you could be spending $300 on a cat, a different looking cat yes, but still just a cat that will definately get a home, meanwhile, there could be a moggy on death row who really needs a home and because someone is wanting a certain look in a cat the other one dies, that's what upsets me.

i can afford a purebred or three if i wanted but that isn't the issue, all cats are the same in my eye's, it's there personality that counts most.

bonnie and pandy are the most loving, gentle, funny and cute cats ever and they are moggy's, ive always had moggy's and they have the most fantastic personality's.

i'm a mix of different races ,German, Spanish, English and mostly Australian so i guess that makes me a moggy too


in the end it's each to their own but i think it's silly to want just "purebreds" when there are so many cats that really need a home.
How do you suppose purebred cat will get a home if nobody buys it? Isn't that what you are proposing everyone should do? It's a cat that needs a home just as any moggie needs a home. A cat is a cat. If nobody buys purebred cats, then the breeds will die out. Moggies aren't in danger of dying out at this time.
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