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Jane Fonda's Anti-Iraq War Tour - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
The truth is hard to come by after 30 years, like I understand McCain says that part about him is not true. So it's hard to know what is true and what isn't in this story. Imean I am not trying to cheerlead her, but I know there is a spectrum of truth here. And 34 or 20 she was a Hollywood broad with issues, there is plenty to feel tragic about here.
TRAGIC??? I am in total desbelief you just said that. She has more then issues. Let me guess you have talked to her and know her personally to assume this? oh yeah what ever. I guess you really didn't read my post fully or didn't care. And yes you are cheerleading her on. Whatever. She has said out plainly she doesn't have "issues" especially with her statements and actions as of lately. Just take my advice, which I know you won't anyways, but do what I said about visiting a VFW or American Legion or smiliar and talk to them about Jane Fonda.

I'll leave you in your fantasy world now. I can see why I left for a time.

[edited to take the vomit out]
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
She made her bed herself. Hollywood or not, she was the only actress that I know of that did the things she did and denegrated the troops to that extent. No one forced her to do that, it was her choice. I don't buy that BS excuse that she's a tragic figure. I don't feel sorry for her in any way, shape or form.
You know I did just read the radio statemetn on the web site that argo postedand it actually didn't say anything against our troops, it was more for the Vietnamese.

Anyways, I don't want to talk about this this much, I am not a big Jane gal. But I just can't stand seeing someone who did a much smaller crime getting the blame when those who did the bigger crime are sort of let go, I mean Nixon has a library for gosh sakes. And got a full pension while people wentot jail and many died in his prolonging the war and no one seemed to care too much.
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
TRAGIC??? I am in total desbelief you just said that. She has more then issues. Let me guess you have talked to her and know her personally to assume this? oh yeah what ever. I guess you really didn't read my post fully or didn't care. And yes you are cheerleading her on. Whatever. She has said out plainly she doesn't have "issues" especially with her statements and actions as of lately. Just take my advice, which I know you won't anyways, but do what I said about visiting a VFW or American Legion or smiliar and talk to them about Jane Fonda.

I'll leave you in your fantasy world now. I can see why I left for a time.

[edited to take the vomit out]
You didn't answer my part about McCain saying his part in it wasn't true.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
You didn't answer my part about McCain saying his part in it wasn't true.
First off there was never a question. As for the McCain:

"These people, Ramsey Clark, Tom Hayden, and Jane Fonda, were on the side of the North Vietnamese. I think she only saw eight selected prisoners. I was beaten unmercifully for refusing to meet with the visitors."

I found that statement... and from googling (and was published by the Washington Times) This statement was not challenged. This statement is also published on the Richard Nixon Libary and Birthplace (http://www.nixonfoundation.org/nrc/0...ndochina.shtml) written by Bruce Herschensohn.

Until you can prove this otherwise, the statement stands.
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
First off there was never a question. As for the McCain:

"These people, Ramsey Clark, Tom Hayden, and Jane Fonda, were on the side of the North Vietnamese. I think she only saw eight selected prisoners. I was beaten unmercifully for refusing to meet with the visitors."

I found that statement... and from googling (and was published by the Washington Times) This statement was not challenged. This statement is also published on the Richard Nixon Libary and Birthplace (http://www.nixonfoundation.org/nrc/0...ndochina.shtml) written by Bruce Herschensohn.

Until you can prove this otherwise, the statement stands.
The Nixon library has edited sections of the smoking gun tape, you listen to it practically sounds like he is ordering pizza...nah sorry. Not a good, reliable source.
post #36 of 52
Thread Starter 
Woaaaaah, this post started a really good debate here. That is great!

I really posted this to focus on her current actions (though I guess bringing up her past, very unadmirable actions was inavoidable).

I should mention that this anti-war tour does not seem to me to be at all anti-soldier, as the movements during Vietnam were. She is even enlisting Iraqi war vets to tour with her. Trust me- there are a LOT of soldiers returning from Iraq who are vehemently opposed to this war. I know this because I work with them every day.

I cannot stress enough to everyone that being strongly opposed to this war does not mean that one is anti-soldier in the least. My biggest reason for opposing this war is that I hate that so many of our wonderful men and women have been put in harm's way under false pretenses. I feel that much stronger about things now as I learned yesterday that my brother's former college roommate lost an arm in Iraq only a week ago
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
Woaaaaah, this post started a really good debate here. That is great!

I really posted this to focus on her current actions (though I guess bringing up her past, very unadmirable actions was inavoidable).

I should mention that this anti-war tour does not seem to me to be at all anti-soldier, as the movements during Vietnam were. She is even enlisting Iraqi war vets to tour with her. Trust me- there are a LOT of soldiers returning from Iraq who are vehemently opposed to this war. I know this because I work with them every day.

I cannot stress enough to everyone that being strongly opposed to this war does not mean that one is anti-soldier in the least. My biggest reason for opposing this war is that I hate that so many of our wonderful men and women have been put in harm's way under false pretenses. I feel that much stronger about things now as I learned yesterday that my brother's former college roommate lost an arm in Iraq only a week ago

I don't think anyone here is saying that we're in agreement with this war. Not that I speak for everyone here. The whole point is, Jane Fonda herself. Sorry I don't forget and I don't forgive. Is she a scape goat? Perhaps, but the fact remains that she blamed the troops. Regardless of whatever else is said here she contributed to the movement that debased those young men. And lessened the respect for those young men that died in service to their country. Which is not cool now, honestly I can not fathom why it was cool to do so then.

Just like I don't think anyone here really thinks that Vietnam was a great idea and we should have been there. I know several people that didn't believe we should have been there. My Mother included however she didn't go around calling the returning troops baby killers and activity working against them, like Miss Jane did.

And yes there is a difference between one man in a government doing what he thought was right at the time, as long as he wasn't out rallying the anti-troop (notice I said troop not war) movement. And some young or not so young in Jane's case hippie (and yes I include all of them in my revulsion) working against young men that had really no choice in the matter. Sorry once you're in your thirties you have passed the point that you can point at youthful stupidity to cover for your actions. To be quite frank, I think twenty is pushing the envelope for youthful stupidity. To be quite frank, I hate it when people play the young and dumb card.

And just for the record, I have both friends and family in Iraq now and yes I am scared for them and want them to come home. But I still won't support someone that less than a lifetime ago supported the idea in anyway that the troops were to blame for what happened during a wartime.

I can't understand why any troop is wanting to support her either, there are many other people that are opposed to this war besides her that don't have her past. The way I look at it, if this war happened forty years ago those same troops she has with her now she would have been vilifying then. Then perhaps they are too young to know. Maybe there father's didn't serve in Vietnam or maybe they did and just refuse to speak about it. Who knows...
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
The Nixon library has edited sections of the smoking gun tape, you listen to it practically sounds like he is ordering pizza...nah sorry. Not a good, reliable source.
Excuse me, Bruce Herschensohn, was an Academy Award nominated (Five Cities of June, 1963) documentary filmmaker, worked for the Kennedy Administration and served as an aide to President Nixon. He was a California's Republican nominee for the U.S. Senate in 1992; he is a senior scholar at the Claremont Institute and an associate fellow of the Nixon Center in Washington. The article or I should say, essay, which that statement was taken from was written by him. Sorry, selective history and damning an article that you haven’t read possibly because its at a certain library that had have tapes of the Watergate Scandal edited doesn’t mean anything. Try telling that to any respected historian(s). Bzzzz, Try Again. Btw, did he order a pepperoni pizza?
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
Excuse me, Bruce Herschensohn, was an Academy Award nominated (Five Cities of June, 1963) documentary filmmaker, worked for the Kennedy Administration and served as an aide to President Nixon. He was a California's Republican nominee for the U.S. Senate in 1992; he is a senior scholar at the Claremont Institute and an associate fellow of the Nixon Center in Washington. The article or I should say, essay, which that statement was taken from was written by him. Sorry, selective history and damning an article that you haven’t read possibly because its at a certain library that had have tapes of the Watergate Scandal edited doesn’t mean anything. Try telling that to any respected historian(s). Bzzzz, Try Again. Btw, did he order a pepperoni pizza?
Ok, I read the part about Fonda, it doesn't say anything about anyone suffering due to her actions...?

Serioulsy, the Nixon library has a section on Watergate that is so bizarre...
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Ok, I read the part about Fonda, it doesn't say anything about anyone suffering due to her actions...?

Serioulsy, the Nixon library has a section on Watergate that is so bizarre...
Are you serious? You SERIOUSLY don't think anyone suffered because of her???

How about this from Snopes:

Quote:
The source of the story about a prisoner forced to kneel on rocky ground while holding a piece of steel rebar in his outstretched arms still affirms that account as true, though. Michael Benge was a senior agro-forestry officer with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) who was working in South Vietnam when he was captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held prisoner for five years: He was at a Hanoi prison in 1972 when a political officer he hadn't seen before asked whether he would like to meet Fonda. "I said yes," he wrote in a 1999 letter that protested the Fonda honors, "for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received and how different it was from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese."

Benge said he doesn't know who pilfered his story from his letter and attached it to the Carrigan and Driscoll fictions.

In the 1972 incident, "I think I had maybe a little smarter-than-the-average bear [political officer] who knew I was being cynical," Benge said recently. Benge said he spent the next three days kneeling on a rocky floor with a steel bar on his outstretched hands. Whenever his arms dipped, he was struck with a bamboo cane, he said.

North Vietnamese guards might be the only people able to verify Benge's torture account independently. But, McGrath said, Benge's account is "consistent with [North] Vietnamese policy and conduct about people who didn't cooperate."
Benge's original statement, titled "Shame on Jane," was published in April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs. The unknown author of the "Hanoi Jane" e-mail appears to have picked up Benge's story online and combined it with fabricated tales to create the forwarded text. Some versions now circulate with Benge's name listed; others quote his statement anonymously.
Or is that not suffering? Or is he "lying" about that like Janie said?

What about all of the soldiers who were spit on and denegrated when they returned? Do you honestly not see that her actions did influence people to see the returning soldiers as "war criminals" (her words)? They may not have been made to physically suffer when they returned home to that, but they sure as hell mentally suffered for that.

I do not understand how you think that she had no influence and was just a Hollywood Bimbo. If she didn't have influence, she wouldn't have made the publicity tour to Vietnam, nor made all the speaches at the rallies, nor helped organize other groups. She would have just been another face in the crowds of protesters and we wouldn't be talking about her today.
post #41 of 52
Heidi, the public opinion of the war was turning, regardless of what Fonda did. I am NOT in anyway tryingo to justify what she did, but I am saying there are so many stories around, like the McCain one that is not true (remember he was quoted too...) that it's so hard to know what is true and what is urban myth.

My point is in a vast amount of wrongs, hers was just ONE. I mean there were SOOOO many and by people with much more power than her.
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Heidi, the public opinion of the war was turning, regardless of what Fonda did. I am NOT in anyway tryingo to justify what she did, but I am saying there are so many stories around, like the McCain one that is not true (remember he was quoted too...) that it's so hard to know what is true and what is urban myth.

My point is in a vast amount of wrongs, hers was just ONE. I mean there were SOOOO many and by people with much more power than her.
But, Marge - this thread IS about her.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Heidi, the public opinion of the war was turning, regardless of what Fonda did. I am NOT in anyway tryingo to justify what she did, but I am saying there are so many stories around, like the McCain one that is not true (remember he was quoted too...) that it's so hard to know what is true and what is urban myth.

My point is in a vast amount of wrongs, hers was just ONE. I mean there were SOOOO many and by people with much more power than her.
OK, but since my quote was from Snopes, which is specifically about dismissing untrue urban legends, I have to take that as credible. You seem to want to dismiss that she had influence in the whole matter, and I very much dispute that notion. Once again, if her actions had no influence on the public's opinion of the troops, we wouldn't still be talking about her. If actors and actresses didn't hold any influence they wouldn't be so active in politics from the 1930s (at least) until today. Of course there were many wrongs happening during this time, but like Rockcat said - this thread IS about her!
post #44 of 52

Heidi and Marge----you guys should have your own show on CNN. You are both such great debaters and are both great at backing up your statements and making your point. Have you ever seen PTI on ESPN? Where the two guys get a topic in sports and debate on the issue (but still get along in the end). You guys should have a political debate show like that. I do enjoy reading your debates in the IMO threads. Compliments to you both-----oh, and I'd definitely watch your show!
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellyyfaber

Heidi and Marge----you guys should have your own show on CNN. You are both such great debaters and are both great at backing up your statements and making your point. Have you ever seen PTI on ESPN? Where the two guys get a topic in sports and debate on the issue (but still get along in the end). You guys should have a political debate show like that. I do enjoy reading your debates in the IMO threads. Compliments to you both-----oh, and I'd definitely watch your show!
Whoo-hoo! I'd watch too!

See what you started, Amy?
post #46 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat
Whoo-hoo! I'd watch too!

See what you started, Amy?
Hehe. Yeah, so if Heidi and Marge start a political debate show, I want some of the royalties!
post #47 of 52
I'd do it, I can see it now

"Who said cats are a-political.... on the left we have Marge from thecatsite"

post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I'd do it, I can see it now

"Who said cats are a-political.... on the left we have Marge from thecatsite"

And in this corner...I mean, on the right...Valanhb a.k.a. Heidi from thecatsite" It would be like Hannity and Colmes...only with some intelligence.

I'm glad at least some of you enjoy reading our thoughts and (strong ) opinions. Sometimes I feel like the two of us just take over this forum with our debates! Not that either of us are stubborn or opinionated or anything...
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
And in this corner...I mean, on the right...Valanhb a.k.a. Heidi from thecatsite" It would be like Hannity and Colmes...only with some intelligence.

I'm glad at least some of you enjoy reading our thoughts and (strong ) opinions. Sometimes I feel like the two of us just take over this forum with our debates! Not that either of us are stubborn or opinionated or anything...
opinionated women rock!

It reminds me of something, I have a group I go on vacation with every year and I was trying to remember one of the new people's names, and I described her as "the very opinionated woman" and every started cracking up and someone said "Now THAT narrows it down"
post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
I really debated on replying to this statement", but I had to. I guess you don't understand it nor will you understand the emotions that these veterans have have of this "woman" (I'm being nice). One other thing. She was 34 years old. Yes 34. not a 20 year old bimbo like Jessica Simpson (really bad comparison btw, try again). She knew exactly what the hell she was doing.

Here is are excerpts from a website here written by a Vietnam Veteran that gives good descriptions on her activties on maybe why maybe so many veterans hate her:

Jane Fonda also helped in the organization of a production group called the F.T.A. (F*** The Army). This group helped to set up coffee houses near military bases where they would perform anti-war derogatory-type sketches for the visiting soldiers. The coffee-house sketches were intended to counterpoint the U.S.O. shows, such as Bob Hope and other U.S.O. sponsored performers whose performances increased morale and gave positive support to American soldiers. Some of the F.T.A. coffee house employees would mingle with the soldiers to help them to "relax and unwind", while encouraging the soldiers to desert. Some soldiers alleged that they were promised jobs and money by the F.T.A. if they deserted.

Thats not all folks...

In 1972 Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and others traveled to North Vietnam to give their support to the North Vietnamese's Government. When she returned to the United States, she advised the news media that all of the American Prisoners of War were being well treated and were not being tortured.

As the American POWs returned home in 1973, they spoke out about the inhumane treatment and torture they had suffered as prisoners of war. Their stories directly contradicted Jane Fonda's earlier statements of 1972. Some of the American POWs such as Senator John McCain, a former Presidential candidate, stated that he was tortured by his guards for refusing to meet with groups such as Jane Fonda's. Jane Fonda, in her response to these new allegations, referred to the returning POWs as being "hypocrites and liars."


Speaking of the POW's, did you know that the POW's who refused or cooperate to meet with Jane were beaten? Taken from this site :

The final anecdote in the "Hanoi Jane" message recounts the experience of a POW who agreed to meet with Fonda but announced to his captors that he planned on telling her how horrid conditions in North Vietnamese prison camps really were.

"Because of this," the narrative continues, "I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped."

Those words were written by Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. When I contacted him, he confirmed that the story was indeed his, and true.


Smarter then that? Tell that to the vets who served over there. Me and Heidi went to the Moving Vietnam Veteran Memorial a couple of weeks ago to pay respects who we have lost including recently. Inside the funeral home (it was done at a cemetary). I saw quite a few still saw a few Hanoi Jane Stickets Pins and Buttons, no sign of the famous Toilet Paper though. Yeah its a "cult" just make sure you don't tell that to the veterans.

for examples go here (Parental Discreation advised):

http://www.lznam.com/images/V5.jpg (my personal favorite, infact I just ordered one)
http://www.lznam.com/images/J24.bmp
http://www.lznam.com/images/J21.bmp


One other thing that really disturbs me about Jane Fonda is this statement:
"If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." This was stated back in November 21, 1970. At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism." Washington Times July 7, 2000

Yeah we have a winner there folks. Oh yeah and your excuse for her sickness and being in a abusive relationship is a p*** poor excuse. She new exactly, even to this day of what she was doing. You need to realize that she was doing this from 1967 to 1975… that nearly *8* years of this stuff. And she still spouts out about it, even though she may have “apologized†even though her recent actions of late have really made me wonder if she just did it for publicity. Yeah open more wounds up.

You know, maybe you should read the letter that this Vietnam Veteran received on tell him that he need "to get a grip" about Jane Fonda since it was 32 years ago. Her statement rings very much with your stance is. You can read it here.

Oh and in regards to McNamara, my father personally called him a "f**king idiot." Many more did too. He was very much disliked. However, McNamara was NOT a traitor in the soldiers eye's. He didn't go over to the North Vietnam side of things. Don't try to twist it either, that won't work. There is a difference from being a "f**king idiot" and traitor. Oh and in regards to Johnson and Nixon, yeah there are mixed feelings on them, especially Johnson and his stupid measures and deployments of American troops. But yet, they never were admitted communists and never gave fanfare to the North Vietnamese. And I don’t recall them calling the POW’s liars. Oh they aren’t Urinal Cakes, they were urinal stickers… check the noted links above. Oh and you can still find them at most American Legion and VFW posts as I have lately.

Maybe you should goto a VA or some veterans organization such as the American Legion, VFW, VVA, Viet-Now or smiliar organizations and ask a Veteran why they feel the way they do instead of ranting or "wondering" why she is hated so much. Or better yet, go to a Vietnam Veterans rally on Veterans Day or Memorial Day. I mean isn't that the real thing to do? I'm sorry there really isn't more to it. No really... there isn't.

Now back to the Jane Fonda Cheerleader(s)... and back to lurking.
great post. Jane Fonda is such a despicable traitor she makes me sick.
She should have been imprisoned for life as a traitor to her country. We need to remember the past lest we be tempted to repeat it.
post #51 of 52


The terrorists LOVE this high-profile anti-war "tour". Every time they see something like this, they know that it represents a chipping away of America's resolve to finish what we've started in Iraq, in addition to undermining our troops. Fresh propaganda for Al-Jazeera, right on the heels of Dick Durban's horrendous remarks comparing our soldiers at Gitmo to Nazis.

Thanks Dick and Jane.
post #52 of 52
It is my opinion that all those dumb Hollywood actors and entertainers should just stick to what they're good at and keep their mouths shut. The only reason they get as much publicity as they do is because they are celebrities. Certainly not because anything intelligent comes out of their mouths.

I met many of them when I lived in North Hollywood and worked at Saint Joseph's Hospital there in Burbank. I did meet a few that were intelligent and could actually form a complete sentence. Most of the big-name stars I "met" were hopped up on drugs and totally had their head in the clouds. These people had no idea what real life is like and how life outside of Hollywood lives. I was propositioned by two big name male stars while I was riding my horse and they were at the ranch doing a photo shoot. My friends all thought I was insane for not sleeping with these "stars" when I told them what happened.

It is pretty sad these folks are idolised and revered the way they are. If people really knew what some of them were like in person, on a day-to-day basis, I am pretty sure a lot of them would think twice about paying any attention to anything they said. I'm pretty sure several would at least have their dreams of the glamour of Hollywood shattered and probably run home and rip their posters off the wall and cry LOL
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