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Jean Charles de Menezes - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
If you were followed by plain clothed men with guns, what would you do?
You are assuming he knew he was running away from the police.
Considering police was in plain clothes, who was he running away from?
Could he have thought they were trying to rob him?
Being followed by a group of plain clothed men with guns on a busy street isn't the norm in the UK, because the only people allowed to do that are the police and the armed forces, so yes, i would stop!.

And from what i gather a couple of policemen donned their police caps when giving chase.
post #62 of 86
.

I do know that faced with WW-II, we rounded up all suspicious characters, mostly japanese, and put them in concentration camps until the end of the war, and perhaps that same thing could be considered at this time.

I have done a lot of reading about the internment camps for many years...they were racist. Very few Germans and/or Italians were interned, and only a handful of the over 120,000 of Japanese (men women and children) turned out to have any "evil doer" activities on their mind. The Japanese interned were mostly born US citizens or naturalized. Many found their homes/land stolen from them after the law that imprisioned them was found to be unconstitutional. I am a big FDR fan, but he was dead wrong on that one.
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwin
That he had to be shot five times in and of itself smacks of lack of training or composure on the part of the police.

One, or at most two, shots to the head are in most cases sufficient.

Leonard
As the Brazillian minister said on the news this evening what difference does it make how many shots were given.
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosiemac
Being followed by a group of plain clothed men with guns on a busy street isn't the norm in the UK, because the only people allowed to do that are the police and the armed forces, so yes, i would stop!.

And from what i gather a couple of policemen donned their police caps when giving chase.
They were behind the guy, so he wouldn't see the hats. He was running away. Being from Brazil, he might have had different expericences with armed men chaising people.
He was the innocent person, the one police were supposed to protect. Instead, they killed him. It doesn't seem to me that they had nearly enough evidence to indicate this guy had a bomb, or anything of the sort.
Furthemore, they are fooling themselves if they think the bomb won't go off if they kill the guy. What if it's on a timer? The guy could be dead, and the bomb would still go off.
post #65 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosiemac
I read that he was over here to make money so he could start his own business up back home.
He was over in the UK because he wanted to join the army, but his Mother wouldn't let him because it was too dangerous. He then decided to get some education in the UK and told his Mother that he's be safe there because the 'Police don't carry guns'.
post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
They were behind the guy, so he wouldn't see the hats. He was running away. Being from Brazil, he might have had different expericences with armed men chaising people.
He was the innocent person, the one police were supposed to protect. Instead, they killed him. It doesn't seem to me that they had nearly enough evidence to indicate this guy had a bomb, or anything of the sort.
Furthemore, they are fooling themselves if they think the bomb won't go off if they kill the guy. What if it's on a timer? The guy could be dead, and the bomb would still go off.
Well if he didn't keep running like he did then he would have seen them, end of!. And like i stated earlier, that may be how the police treat their citizens in Brazil, but he knew what the UK was like "apparantly".

"Maybe" he was innocent, but then thats what the family and friends of the London bombers thought and look what they did!.

One thing i do know is that the police had shouted for everyone to get off, so if the bomb had been on a timer the ones to be the next victims may have been the police!.
post #67 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick_kitten
ordinary people are not stopped and searched reguarly by the police
You've not lived in the Midlands or NW then - as if that is the case, I actually have very few 'ordinary' friends.

I just feel a little concerned about the situation, because, as you say they look for Asian, big coat wearing people acting suspicious - that describes a lot of my friends! (they are not acting suspicious, it is just the expressions on their faces when trying to get somewhere quickly)

Also, we can never be too sure if there is any racism in the Police!
Can't find the website about GMP
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sar
Also, we can never be too sure if there is any racism in the Police!
Your right Sarah, you can't be sure.

And thanks to the London bombers more eyes are going to be watching asians, muslims etc...more than ever now, because you just don't know who your neghbour is, who your sitting beside on a bus, train or even your local pub

It's sad it's come to this, but did you honestly think they would be from our own country?, i didn't!.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosiemac
And thanks to the London bombers more eyes are going to be watching asians, muslims etc...more than ever now, because you just don't know who your neghbour is, who your sitting beside on a bus, train or even your local pub


When the train was empty this morning (as I am at the start of the line) this guy got on the other end of my carriage with a beard, muslim dress and a back pack. I must admit I did try and suss him out but he was acting ok and reading his paper. Another guy (asian) sat opposite me with this massive sports bag... I kept looking at it, and so did other ppl.

We can't help it, ppl are **** scared and it's a really horrible feeling.
post #70 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosiemac
It's sad it's come to this, but did you honestly think they would be from our own country?, i didn't!.
I began to think that hthey would be from our country, as I had seen and read a lot about it through local papers (in regards to the bomber from Moss Side)

I just think that it is so sad that because of a few wayward Muslims, people become suspicious of all Asian people/men!
post #71 of 86
it said in the papers 91% of muslims thought the bombers were anti-islam but that still means over 100,000 of our fellow countrymen agree with the bombing.

as regards to ordinary people being searched, the police have to give them reasons now and fill in a form, a copy of the serchee retains. so this guy must have had an idea that he was being watched.
post #72 of 86
Perhaps a scheduling of bus and tube times to accomodate all the various ethnicities would ease the minds of some.

If you choose to ride with someone who makes you uncomfortable, it's your call.

Leonard
post #73 of 86
Not really.. then you can't go anywhere on public transport, and you can't see in advance who'll be on the train with you so you can't just cancel all your plans every time you see a guy with a bag.
post #74 of 86
Thread Starter 
I read this the other day and thought it might be a little bit more light hearted to add to this!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...546099,00.html
My ideal tube-riding partner

Jesse Armstrong
Wednesday August 10, 2005
The Guardian

It is hardly news that since the bombings in London there's been a weird atmosphere on the buses and especially on the tube. And since all of the suspects so far have been non-whities, race is inevitably coming into the complex matrix of risk assessment that passengers are making.

Indeed, right now there's the potential for a degree of racial profiling by the white liberal middle class not seen since the heady days of early 20th-century eugenics. Is that a Caucasian nose? Just how swarthy is that swarthy skin? There's a possible gap in the market in fact for a reissue of those pseudo-scientific racial handbooks that classified on the basis of nose length roughly how much trust an Edwardian gentleman could place in an average Malayan. (Answer, generally, none.)

However, anyone who, like me, has seen the second season of 24 will know that you can't necessarily trust anyone not to be a religious maniac terrorist - not even a nice perky blonde Californian. She could easily have been radicalised by her diabolical off-screen boyfriend.

Therefore, on the tube I myself am an equal-opportunities coward. Almost anyone can give me the willies. Man or woman, Asian, black or white, young or old.

There are, however, a few types I have identified as my preferred neighbours on the Northern line. These include:

Anyone mid-way through reading a Dan Brown

This is a great comfort. It means that upwards of a quarter of the travelling public are safe on my Ready Paranoia Reckoner. For I know the power of perverted theology is strong, but I personally feel it is still small when compared with the awesome narrative drive a Religo-thriller packs. My one caveat to this warm appreciation of Brown is that the pull of the Da Vinci Code seems so strong that it is just possible he may foster his own clique of enraged religious maniacs who try to blow up - what? Robert Ludlum?

Anyone eating anything

Surely these people are safe. If you're on your way to meet your maker, you are not, are you, going to stop en route for a foot-long tuna sub? (The exception to this rule is that I would tend to avoid anyone enjoying a Ginsters product. People eating these pasties have probably already given up on life.)

Anyone with very expensive trainers

This is just a hunch. And don't trust me on this, but anyone wearing the really high end, slightly ridiculous trainers that I won't be wearing for four or five years yet, but then will no doubt be happily slipping on, must be safe, mustn't they?

Anyone who looks like a devout Muslim

Long beards, headscarves, burkas, all are like a magnet to me right now. The level of police presence on the tubes and the policy of targeting searches surely means any Islamist-motivated attacker would eschew all outward sign of their religion.

However, it has to be noted that as a fairly ignorant atheist there's a good chance I may be attaching myself to people of any number of faiths. The rabbi, the Jain monk, the Greek Orthodox priest, all could find me sitting next to them smiling hopefully.

Anyone who is clinically obese

Like the trainers. Don't ask for the logic behind this one. They just feel safe to me.

Anyone with a comedy T-shirt

"I'm with Stupid", "I like the Pope, the Pope Smokes Dope", "Good Girls Go To Heaven, Bad Girls Go To London", "Sex Instructor, First Lesson Free" - all the people wearing these can, in my view, be waved through the bag-check for they offer society no danger.

However, I emphatically exclude from this category anyone wearing any of the "My mum/dad/brother went to London and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" spectrum. Since it seems to me that persons wearing this particular shirt are just the sort of embittered loners who might conceive a violent hatred of our decadent society. Not necessarily solely because of the comedy T-shirt purchased by a loved one. But let's just say, it won't have helped.

* Jesse Armstrong writes for Peep Show on Channel 4 and The Thick of It on BBC4.
post #75 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
Bombers still at large

There are possibly 5 bombers at large in London. If the police to catch up with the bombers then they should shoot... really well IMO.

But then I should just keep out of this topic cos my emotions might get in the way.
I agree. I think we all need to walk a few hundred miles in the police's shoes and then see how we feel
I feel darned sorry for any criticism levied against them. If he would have been a bomber and set off a bomb that killed people then you same people would have been villifying the police. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
I think we should all think twice before being so judgemental against the authorities that are trying to keep us safe.
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
When I saw a picture of Londoners at the station the guy was shot at (the picture was on cnn), half the people were wearing jackets. If plain clothed men with gun run after me, I will take off too. The poor guy might have not even known those people were the police. It sounds like an absolutely horrible policy. Police has a right to shoot anyone they deem suspicious?
Obviously, that can lead to no good, as clearly happened to this poor man.
In my book, ignorance of the law is NO excuse. The whole city must be on edge and who can blame them. He should have stopped, he did not stop and paid the utimate price. I don't blame the police one bit.
I think they and us should start racial profiling. Sorry but the terrorists are all Muslim Extremists and that is what it is going to take.
post #77 of 86
I intend to read this entire thread through later when I have a bit of time...but did anyone watch "American Dad" last night.. the comically graphic animated take on a particular American stereotype?

It was the episode where they have a block party and American Dad is uncomfortable with new neighbours, Bob and Linda Memari being there (they are Iranian)...
He goes on to shoot his guns in the air, yelling "terrorist!" at them while they are sitting calmly eating their corn on the cob..He also tries to anally search the man for explosives as he innocently bends over to get a coke from the cooler...

This reminded me of this thread.
post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sar
I began to think that hthey would be from our country, as I had seen and read a lot about it through local papers (in regards to the bomber from Moss Side)

I just think that it is so sad that because of a few wayward Muslims, people become suspicious of all Asian people/men!
A FEW WAYWARD MUSLIMS???? WOW
post #79 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
A FEW WAYWARD MUSLIMS???? WOW
post #80 of 86
All I have to say is, if I got off the EL everytime I saw someone who made me "uncomfortable", I'd never get anywhere!
The crazy-talkers, funny-smellers, and uncomfortable-oglers have become a part of my daily routine.
post #81 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckblv
In my book, ignorance of the law is NO excuse. The whole city must be on edge and who can blame them. He should have stopped, he did not stop and paid the utimate price. I don't blame the police one bit.
I think they and us should start racial profiling. Sorry but the terrorists are all Muslim Extremists and that is what it is going to take.
New information says he didn't run at all. He used his ticket, then he got into the train and was sitting in his seat when apprehended and shot.
You don't blame the police one bit? They just shot him in the head 8 times for doing absolutely nothing wrong. They should start profiling? He wasn't even a Muslim, he was from Brazil, and look at all that good it did him.
post #82 of 86
Yeah this is very freaky. Someone at scotland yard, who got fired btw, leaked to the pressn witness accounts that he did indeed walk, he sat down, he didn't run.
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
New information says he didn't run at all. He used his ticket, then he got into the train and was sitting in his seat when apprehended and shot.
You don't blame the police one bit? They just shot him in the head 8 times for doing absolutely nothing wrong. They should start profiling? He wasn't even a Muslim, he was from Brazil, and look at all that good it did him.
They shot him 8 times? I don't think you would need to shoot a charging bear 8 times to take him down.
post #84 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Yeah this is very freaky. Someone at scotland yard, who got fired btw, leaked to the pressn witness accounts that he did indeed walk, he sat down, he didn't run.
He wasn't wearing a bulky jacket, he wasn't running, he used his ticket, he got a newspaper, he got on the train and sat down. Yet he was shot 8 times in the head, and another 3 times bullets missed him. Not only police killed this poor guy, they could have killed 3 other innocent people.
Now, is that some good police work or what?
post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwin
I do know that faced with WW-II, we rounded up all suspicious characters, mostly japanese, and put them in concentration camps until the end of the war, and perhaps that same thing could be considered at this time.

Leonard
Leonard, the only thing that made the Japanese "suspicious characters" was their ethnicity. In the end we only found about a dozen that actually fit the mold of suspicious. The people we "rounded up" (like cattle) 110,000 in all. They were mostly AMERICAN CITIZENS...TWO THIRDS OF THEM ACTUALLY. One half of the interned were children. And many lost their homes, farms etc...to say nothing of their dignity and spirit.
post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
He wasn't wearing a bulky jacket, he wasn't running, he used his ticket, he got a newspaper, he got on the train and sat down. Yet he was shot 8 times in the head, and another 3 times bullets missed him. Not only police killed this poor guy, they could have killed 3 other innocent people.
Now, is that some good police work or what?
I STILL say they truly believed he was carrying a bomb or they never would have shot him 7 times. I do not, for one minutes, think the police picked out, what they knew was some innocent Joe Bloe and said "lets shoot this guy in the head 7 times in broad daylight for the fun of it, in front of God and everyone" They made a mistake a serious mistake but we have no idea the tension they were under. A lot of very judgemental people here I think. Everyone is quick to jump on the bandwagon and say, "Hang the Cops"
They keep you safe at night people, but they are human and make mistakes.
Don't you?
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