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I'm a bit upset...

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
by the decision to delete 3 threads here. Has this become the stated policy of this site now that we have to be aware of what a moderator PERCIEVES to be happening? No discussion,no commnt; just I THINK you're going to say something offensive or confrontational therefore you're gone? Is THAT what this site is going to become?

I reviewed all the threads before they were removed and fail to see anything so very terrible about any of them. Sure,in the last couple of posts there was a little archiness,but since when is that new? The whole latter part of the MJ thread grew out of a "confrontation" and turned into a quite entrtaining little "tour de force". Judging by all the "hits" it was quite popular;our own little soap opera as it were.

To top it off we are told to PM so everything can be swept under the rug. A couple of dissenting opinions were deleted as well. Apparently there is some confusion between the titles moderator and God. I thought we had learned better. Please do not trot out the old "children are watching" chesnut either. There's more risque content in the Ally McB or survivor threads and nobody pulled them.

Every time this happens we lose members who are witty,entertaining and even wise. Perhaps it is just too much to ask that personalities be left out of these decisions. Or perhaps new members should be SCREENED to make sure they are of the proper "sort".

I am NOT PM ing this because I think it affects ALL the members here and they DESERVE to have their say. Delete this if you wish,but you can then delete my membership too. I had thought better of you.
post #2 of 64

I will do my best to explain what happened. The threads in question were all deleted because of what happened in the lilyrose thread. I don't know if you were on last night while it was going on or not. There were some posts made that could have started a fight. We've seen it a million times. In the interest of fairness all 3 were deleted.

As for taking it to PMs that's what we do when trying to avoid the board from getting ugly. Anne has repeatedly said to take things to PM to avoid more fighting. It's not as simple as 'poof, the MJ thread is gone' there was an explanation posted in the locked thread, and then the mod made the judgement to move it. And like I said it stems from an entirely different thread that most people didn't even see. This board has been pleasant lately and noone wanted to see that change.
post #3 of 64
Having not been online last night, I certainly have no knowledge of what went on, but...

Having seen some of the recent references to "lilyrose" and recalling the strange disappearance of the same, I fail to see how that affects 3 other threads.

All in all...WHATEVER. Do what you do, I'll do what I do and the world will continue to turn...

post #4 of 64

Very well put. I was part of one of those threads. It was fun while it lasted and now it's gone. No big deal. And if deleting it avoided any flaming, confrontations or arguments, then so be it.
post #5 of 64
The threads in question were all deleted because of what happened in the lilyrose thread. I don't know if you were on last night while it was going on or not. There were some posts made that could have started a fight. We've seen it a million times. In the interest of fairness all 3 were deleted.
Ahhhh....so if a moderator dont like a thead then they have the right to delete all simular threads? That sure dont seem like fairness to me (In the interest of fairness) at all!!!

And yeah the explanation was posted in the locked thread...and yeah the moderator then deleted that thread. BEFORE everyone had a chance to read the explanation. Lot of good it did to give one at all!! Not that it made any sense to me anyhow. But that is my opinion and I think (?) that I am still entitled to have my own opinion.

So if this stemmed from a thread that most people didnt even see why delete other threads that were precieved to be simular???? As you said this board WAS a pleasent place lately so why did the moderator deem it necessary to to make it become unpleasent??

Sorry but I think this is very UNFAIR to say the least. I was told in a pm that some people thought we were posting too much on the fun threads and not enough on the serious threads. Ok so I dont like the threads about the TV shows. So if I complain a bit about them are you going to delete all those too?

MY OPINION IS....I think this is a bunch of bull $%^&.....

post #6 of 64
Thread Starter 
Airprincess..I have no problem whatsoever with moderators coming into a thread saying this has to stop or we lock the thread. What BURNS MY BUTT here is the arbitrary DELETING of 3 threads. I refer you to your own statement "It stems from an entirely different thread that most people didn't even see." That seems to me to be "Big Brotherism" rather than moderation.

I'm entirely surprised that you would support this given your previous statements about wanting to live in a society with rights.

Again..I am not upset because any one thread was of supreme importance to me. All were basically fluff where members could be a bit goofy,let their hair down and laugh. All would die soon anyways of their own volition or at least go into "hibernation".

It is the heavy-handedness of this "decision" that I object to. Might I suggest that if you moderators are having a problem with someone's posts you PM THEM and work it out rather than deny everyone else their platform.

Let's HOPE this doesn't become the LAW here.
post #7 of 64

The person was cat and she basically said she didn't know why more people weren't posting in the max thread than the lilyrose thread. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that someone else complained that people were posting in the MJ thread rather than serious threads.
post #8 of 64
AP wrote:
The person was cat ...
What does it matter WHO it was?! Did THIS need thrown out in a public thread?

I completely agree with Wayne. The threads deleted were not all-consuming or critically important and would have perished in a sort of natural selection. It really IS about the principle of the thing.

...and I'll not waste time debating this further, as I've got other things to occupy myself.

Happy New Year!
post #9 of 64
Amen to that, Bill! I guess some people are more sensitive than others. Why let stupid stuff like that make you mad. What a waste of time.
post #10 of 64
Meme was confused about the nature of what was said. I was trying to clear it up. Since people don't want to do it in PMs, and want to it here, that's what I'm doing.

It's a lose, lose. If you say PM me, people say you're sweeping it under the rug. If you try to clarify in the thread that has been designed stricly for that use, then people don't like that either.

I've never abused my 'mod' powers. I didn't delete the threads last night but I did see what was happening. Since people are upset and want answers, and since Deb is a teacher and not on during the day I'm trying to fill in some of the blanks here, so people don't have to hang.
post #11 of 64
AP....It dont matter to me who the person/persons were that complained. And I personally dont think names should be mentioned but that is my opinion. I did not mention names as it is not the issue. Everyone has a right to complain. But that doesnt mean all simular threads have to be deleted because of one thread or because of one or a few complaints!!

post #12 of 64

Meme is NOT confused!!!! Meme knows what was said and not said. Meme even quoted it.........

Thanks for at least letting us post our objections!
post #13 of 64
look, I didn't want to have this conversation on the board in front of the whole world, and this is why it was recommended to take it to PMs in the first place.

This thread was started with the intentions of getting 'answers' so I'm trying as best I can to explain what happened. It wasn't my idea to take this publically on the board, but people are demanding answers and I'm trying my best to fill in the blanks.

I really can't win here, if I'm vague it's bad, if I'm not, it's bad. I give up.

I apolgize Meme, I read your response wrong and I was just trying to shed as much light as possible on this.
post #14 of 64
"Don't fight battles that are too hard to win, it's not worth all the anguish"
Author unknown
post #15 of 64
To All:

I simply stated that I wished that people were more interested in convicting a criminal that bashed Max's head in...I never tried to make anyone feel guilty about it...I simply said what I just mentioned and then I was attacked by Melissa stating that I was trying to make people feel guilty. I told her, if the shoe fits, wear it, but that was not my intent to make people feel guilty. I was simply stating that I was surprised that this person "LILYROSE" was getting more attention than MAX. This woman basically gave us the finger...she had a beef with someone so, what's the big deal? That's all I said.

That was all I did A/P and if you find that offensive than you in my opinion have a distored view of a simple comment. You know damn well that's NOT why the post was deleted. You nor anyone of your click liked the MJ Thread nor the Christmas Thread. If you're not the parade you guys have to be the rain. So have your limelight and enjoy it.

I too feel as Daniela, this site has turned into anarchy; which is something that I do not wish to be part of. For all my good, dear friends I've made here, I know we'll stay in contact.

For all of you that made this Board what it is today, I hope you don't treat new members the way you treated me. If you delete this...it shows once more what type of people that run this Site. It's no wonder that LilyRose left.

Again, this was Max's homebase; how awful of you people to put personalities ahead of justice for this horrendous crime that was this kitty's fate.

Oh, and to all of you too!

post #16 of 64
Good one, Donna!

Thanks for the reminder!

post #17 of 64
I don't envy the job the moderators have to do. I understand everyone's distress about the deleted threads, & there were probably different ways of dealing with them (pm's etc). However, the mods have to walk a fine line between what different members of the site want. There are some young people who do have access to the site. Other then the MJ thread, I don't even know what was deleted. I do know, that as a responsible adult, if I was asked to change things in the way I post for valid reasons, I would be more then happy to do so. I don't think I can blame the mods for doing the job as they deem best, as I for one don't want to have to take over their duties!
post #18 of 64
You hit the nail on the head
post #19 of 64
Thread Starter 
Airprincess..I DO APPRECIATE that you tried to explain the decision. I have no big problems with yourself or any other PERSON on here. I may or may not agree with what ANYONE says in ANY thread or post and I do understand the perameters of posting on this site. Once again my beef is with the decision to delete 3 unrelated threads,not with who made the decision. It's the principle,not the persons.

I would draw a parallel. If a Govt agency arbitrarily closes a public program and refuses to justify it's actions openly everyone would be up in arms screaming censorship. Why is that different?

As far as Cat goes,we all know that she is totally committed to Max's cause. What's wrong with that? I too note how quickly her posts about him disappear from lack of response. I would have thought that Max would have been a cause celeb for a site of this nature? Or at least a support for those involved when things are not going well.

I will let my posts drop here by saying I think a mistake of procedure was made and needs to be openly acknowledged.
post #20 of 64
Not that I have time to debate endlessly, as I am currently at work, but let me get a few things straight.

1. It has been stated in the past that if one didn't like the nature of a party thread, then choose not to participate. Fine. Just don't make a statement like that and later ignore it yourself.

2. For those of you who have not been around a long time, the Max issue has become a catalyst for trouble in the past, and due to that history, it certainly looked to me like it was heading in that direction again. Trouble has a way of snowballing around here, and I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that if one party thread were closed and tensions were running high, that it would bleed into other threads. There is plenty of precedent for that assumption.

3. People were plenty upset that their party was subject to criticism when others weren't. My action was designed to apply the same thing fairly across all.

4. Let me point out one other thing. I initially simply closed the threads with an explanation. But things began flowing in. Had it been 8 pm instead of 1 am, I would have hung around to talk about my action. That was simply not possible. To avoid having things erupt, I decided to move the threads. They have not been deleted, and I left it up to Anne as to whether she wanted to reopen them. If she does, fine, but all involved need to be mindful of not raining on others' parade. If you expect to be treated with consideration and respect, that street runs both ways. Don't preach about letting people have their fun and intrude on theirs in return.

If Anne chooses to reopen 1, 2, or all 3 threads, I abide by her decision and even agree with it. But from where I was sitting last night, I felt that it was time to take a step back before things got ugly. You may not agree with that action, and that is your choice. But I defend my right to have taken it. Moving, rather than deleting, was done purposefully, as I have seen threads disappear into cyberspace before.

This is hopefully the last public address I will make on the issue. I can read undercurrent as well as the next person, and this dispute has been brewing for some time. If you want to make me the Typhoid Mary of the issue, fine.
post #21 of 64
I feel I need to explain a little bit about how the forums are moderated.

I am the site's owner and administrator. A group of members who volunteered to help me keep an eye on the boards as it is my responsibility but there's no way I can handle everything by myself. Moderators have special editing capabilities that make it possible for them to edit posts or delete them, move threads around, delete whole threads, merge or split threads and close or open threads. These capabilities let them execute their decisions along the way without having to tell me to do it. This is what being a mod is all about.

I am thankful for this help and I don't consider myself any more knowledgable or more competent to make such decisions myself. I can tell you that some of the decisions are not easy - running forums with more than 1700 members, several hundreds of them quite active, is not easy. Behind each username there's a person and I never forget that. Online communications can be just as emotional as those in real life and I really don't like it when people's feelings get hurt, whatever the reasons.

I don't consider myself to have any divine properties and I don't think any of the mods do That's why we have a special secret moderators lounge which is visible only to moderators, where we can discuss guidelines and moderating decisions. We also have a special place for "deleted threads" which means that no threads are actually deleted and they can be revived (mind you we all make mistakes from time to time and threads can and do get really deleted, but we try not to).

Usually, when trouble is about to start or is starting we being it up in the lounge. I can tell you that some of the deleted threads have been discussed before and we decided to keep them open and just keep an eye on them so they won't get too out of line. However, and this is a point I must stress, when a moderator feels things may get out of hand quickly, she has the right, and I expect her to, make a judgement call and either close or "delete" a post or a thread there and then.

This is not something that is easily done and granted we're all human, and not all decisions are perfect. When you're a mod in the middle of the night and there's no other mod around, you have to make a decision and make it quickly. I stand behind these decisions. Then, we can and do discuss the matter in the moderators lounge and see what the other mods think and reverse some decisions if needs be. Nine out of ten times, most members don't even notice this. This time, as three popular threads were involved, it was very noticeable.

Please understand the sensitivities and respect the moderators for the hard and often very ungrateful job they're doing. They are members just like all of us and it's not easy having to be the "bad guy" from time to time. We're all human, and I don't think anyone pretends to be anything more than that. When a mod makes a decision she takes all sorts of considerations into account, not all of them obvious to every member immediately.

Also, with each such episode we are learning and trying to improve. We are still discussing the matter among the moderators. Your comments and feedback are very important to us. Those of you who have PM'd or emailed me in the past know that I always take your views into account. Please try to remain cool about this and let us all learn together in peace rather than by flaming each other.

I hope this clears some points.
post #22 of 64
Kittyfoot wrote:

"I would draw a parallel. If a Govt agency arbitrarily closes a public program and refuses to justify it's actions openly everyone would be up in arms screaming censorship. Why is that different?"

The difference is, the government is a public entitiy. It is owned in common by the people it governs or at least it is responsible to them. A website is more like a store. It might be open to the public, but it is actually a private space where people are allowed to congregate. The owner (or representatives thereof) does have the right to dictate certain standards of behavior. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to comply if you want to stay. We are guests here.

Actually the moderators have been very generous about sharing their reasoning with us and taking our feedback into consideration. Other sites are not so accomodating.

On another note, not all moderators and users will get along. Some people will carry a grudge, some people will be able to slough it off, some people won't be invested enough to comment, some people will complain to the moderators or each other. Sounds normal. It's a shame when personal feelings get dragged into an executive decision. On either side.

It's a little like being a teacher and having your own child in your class: You don't want to be too easy on him but you also don't want to be too hard on him, so you always end up second-guessing yourself. And no matter what you do, he's always going to feel like you're singling him out for special attention in some way.

I got caught a bit in the middle of this because I was up and curious, but I think the people involved have a history that I don't know anything about, and they need to take it up with each other. My understanding is that Catarina posted some things in the lilyrose thread that might have been inflamatory and clearly did upset a few people. I thought we were past it in the thread, but Deb apparently didn't. She was originally going to close down just the one thread, but she was concerned about personal retaliation in the other threads and thought it was better to shut them down too. Just like a few months ago there was a disagreement that bled over into other discussions. Now I don't know all the personal background here, and I'm not in a position to ascribe other agendas to either party. I just know that I understand how this decision happened and I can respect it even if I don't agree with it 100%.

And actually a thread I started with my own questions got deleted too. But I am not sitting here asking "Why is this one okay when mine was not?" Because the situation changes over time and life and relationships is more like surfing than bulldozing: You have to work with what's out there, not try to make everything conform to your ideals.

Not to offend anyone, just putting my $0.02 out there as another perspective.
post #23 of 64
I was contacted to come back to the Boards to clear something up and I do see where you're wrong Deb and are telling this story to accomodate yourself.

1.To respond to your first statement: The Lilyrose thread was not a party Thread until after I mentioned Max...so I did not intrude on anyone's party.

2. This was Max's homebase and those that were sick of seeing him in the Limelight didn't want it on the site. Those that didn't want to see the information are the ones that started flaming ME! I never flamed anyone about Max. I asked for funds of a dollar or 50 cents if it was possible and was attacked for asking, but yet some little kid comes on here and asks for money and everyone's writing checks. What gives? Max was brutally Murdered by a police officer...does anyone get it?

3. ????????????????? I certainly cared nothing about that LilyRose Party...they could party till they actually found LilyRose.

4. You NEVER gave us any explantion before you closed the Threads! You didn't even PM me until I asked you to on a Thread that was opened by Sunlion, Meme posted and I posted where you finally sent me a PM. and then you closed that Thread! Why did that have to be closed? Not only that...you told Meme an entirely different reason than what you gave me.

Anne has emailed me and asked me to stay...If things were spoken in total truth, yes, this would be a wonderful site. But, there's a click here and it turns my stomach to see people afraid to post because of these people.

Sunlion, I have one thing to say to you...I did not say one word to them before their excursion/party to find LilyRose....that is an untrue statement on your part. I was openly ATTACKED by Melissa and you can't in truth deny it.
post #24 of 64
It is clear that some members are very upset. We understand that and we really do understand how frustrated some of you are right now.

My hope is that now that everyone has been able to vent their frustration with the decisions that were made, we can go back to where we were just a day ago.

I think this is a situation in which no one can win at this point, so lets just stop for now and go back to having fun visiting with each other here at the Cat Site!
post #25 of 64
Oh, I sure understand that it would upsetting to suddenly find all that stuff gone. Deb made a judgement call, and those are more prone to error than other kinds of decisions. You might disagree with her assessment, but she has the authority to make it and it doesn't appear to be arbitrary or whimsical, that is, she seems to have tried to be fair and it doesn't seem to be just a case where she deleted it because she didn't appreciate it.

Freedom of speech means the government can't stop you from expressing dissension. It applies primarily to disagreement with the government's actions and policies, and it was written in response to monarchical governments where kings simply had their opponents assasinated. In many places even today, if you don't agree you'd better keep your mouth shut. In the US, we can shout it from the rooftops or get an infomercial or post it on the 'net. It does not however mean that the government will suddenly change its plans just because a minority dissents. We have freedom of speech here in as much as we have given more or less public voice to our dissatisfaction with this situation and we have not been barred from the site. I don't feel particularly censored, because I have been able to disagree or to say unpopular things. To what degree, Tiptop, do you think standards of behavior in general constitute censorship?

However, I think the problem here is that an assessment was made about emotional content and intent, which resulted in an unpopular decision. Was it objectively right or wrong? That's another question. Remember too that life is not fair, and both sides believe they are right.
post #26 of 64
Anne has replied to my email asking me to not leave. I almost considered staying after all, until I came and started reading this thread again. It just reiterates to me exactly why I chose to leave earlier today in the first place. I am not going to hold back because first of all I won't be sticking around after this post, and secondly I assume one of you moderators will probably delete it anyways, because it directly targets you and you won't like it. So either don't read it at all, or sit back and try to understand why so many people are angry with you.

I want to tell you all why I don't want to be here. Because everyone is so over judgemental of everyone else. As soon as one of the "respected" members ( and you know who you are ) doesn't like something being said they do one of 3 things. They either start trouble within the thread, they ask a moderator to delete it or delete it themself if they are a moderator, or they make "obvious" comments about it on a new thread. This is not only immature, but it is ridiculous. We are all individual people, all of us have our own views and opinions, and all of us have the right to state that opinion as long as it falls within the guidelines of "TCS" rules and regulations. The problem lies within the moderators themselves I believe.

The ones who have open minds , and there are a few of them , seem to be much more cordial when it comes to "deleting" or altering threads. They either step in on the thread and say something, or you receive a PM or email first. That would be the correct way to handle it. Then there are the ones who take it into their own hands because they have that power, and just do as they like with no regard to other peoples feelings. Did it ever occur to any of you moderators that perhaps you might have been "perceiving" the thread incorrectly? Couldn't you have PM'd Catarina to clarify it and then if you still weren't satisfied perhaps then you could have deleted just her post?? And is it a coincidence that you not only targetted Catarina in the Lilyrose thread, but suddenly her MJ thread that she started as well as Max's are also deleted? Puh leese. You could have just as easily deleted just a portion and avoided this whole big thing, but you didn't. Because you just had to stir up something.
With all due respect to Anne, and I mean that sincerely, perhaps she should reconsider who she chooses as moderators. Maybe people with a little more of an "open Mind" should be asked instead of the kind of people that are doing the job right now.

I am going to remain a member here, because at some point I am sure that I may need some "feline' advice and this is truly the best place to get that. But I will not frequent the lounge, I feel the group of you that are the bullies make it not worth it. I posted earlier that I wanted to thank all of you etc....and I meant it, but I felt I owed it to Anne and the rest of you exactly why I am so upset. I wouldn't want to have anyone just assume why I left, and it be incorrect.
post #27 of 64
No, Catarina, as I recall we had already begun partying and your post showed up on the list because that thread was getting a lot of attention and the one about Max was not, which bothered you. It was getting attention precisely because the party was interesting to people. But we don't have to agree on this, I said it was MY understanding, and of course the thread is gone now so it's just you and I arguing about what we remember.
post #28 of 64
Yes, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

But I don't know either of the ladies involved well enough to make that assessment. Nor to suggest any ulterior motives for either of them.

I'm just sorry toes got stepped on.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread. I'll keep following it in case someone addresses me specifically, but I'll probably reply by pm. I thought I might be able to clarify a thing or two, but I think I'm not helping so I'll just retreat for a while. I don't need to keep stirring the pot, as much as I keep thinking "wait, we can fix it, just do this" (laughs at self)
post #29 of 64
No, there was a discussion and all I said was that "I wished that more people would pay more attention...etc...." I had no beef about the Thread getting attention...that's for sure...I found it a bit ridiculous and I have every right to since the lady didn't give a crap about us as people. So, I was wondering why the big fuss over her.

So, disagree all you want, but the Thread holds the truth. I did say "I wished Max would get the attention this unknown x member from two months ago...????" there was no malicious intent, but yet what I received in return was. Besides, as I said before, it was a discussion and the Thread will prove that. I may have my own character faults, but I am NOT a liar, nor do I start trouble.

You have no idea how many times I've been flamed because of an innocent cat that was brutalized...this is a CatSite...what do you expect me to say when I've been involved in this case for almost a year.

It would be nice to get support from people that love cats. I'm sure you would agree; not to mention, even if I had a beef with someone here and that happened to their cat...trust me, I'd be all for helping them convict the person charged.
post #30 of 64
I don't know if *I'm* the person that is being referred to or not, but I just wanted to respond.

Just to clarify the max thread hasn't been deleted, but moved to the SOS forum. Anne stated that was were it belonged. Debra Myers had already posted that it was being moved to the SOS thread, so I didn't post again, just moved it out of the lounge as it had become a duplicate thread.

I have to say that I'm a bit mystified. The only threads I've deleted were duplicates, and Anne is very clear about wanting that done. I've never altered a post before either. I've moved some threads to their proper forums. I've actually done very few things as a moderator. I don't think that I've started any trouble in any threads except to state my opinion and I've always been respectful when I've done that and never made it a personal attack.

I'm not feeling guilty and feel like I have to defend myself, but being a moderator and therefore considered 'part of the problem' I wanted to give my side.
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