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At what age?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
I have two Siamese that I will be breeding only 2x(then they both become fixed). I already have both litters spoken for through friends and family. They are my pets and I am not a breeder. My babies are only 6 months old but my male has been trying to mate with my female. I know it is too soon and she throws him off. How old should I expect them to be?
post #2 of 20
Quote:
that I will be breeding only 2x
Quote:
I am not a breeder
You are a breeder. The definition of breeder is 'one who breeds'. You are breeding. Doesn't matter if it is once or a trillion times. Breeding cats once makes you a breeder.

Six months is way too early. Your male should not even be near your female. If she gets pregnant now she will likely be too small to give birth naturally.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you want to breed them? Do you realize (and you may not) that it puts your female at extreme risk? She could die, develop infections, or even eat her kittens. Are you financially prepared for all the emergencies that could arise? Even if you fix them both after letting them breed, there can be problems down the line. Both will likely develop a spraying and marking habit that will not be broken by neutering or spaying. The female, even fixed, will have an increased risk of developing mammary cancer later in life.

If your friends and families want kittens so much, please refer them to a rescue and have them save a life, rather than create new ones that will take up homes that could go to cats already here and in genuine need. There are tons of siamese languishing in shelters.

Please, seriously think over this decision and research all you can before going through with it. Your female needs to be older anyway, so PLEASE keep them seperate while you are researching.

This is not meant as being harsh or an attack in any way. You may simply not be aware of all the dangers and great expenses of breeding. I'm merely trying to help you see all ends before you commit to something that may have serious repercussions down the line.
post #3 of 20
I am a CFA siamese breeder. There are alot of people here that will tell you that it is not safe to breed until over one year. I have done alot of research on the topic and talked to many other breeders. It is safe to breed her at ten months. Sarah my blue point got studded when she was ten months. She is a great mom and had a very easy birth. I dont understand why everyone in the cat community is so against breeding. The AKC is not like this. If you got unlimited registration for your cat and have done the appropriate amount of research on the subject of birth then you should be free too.
There are not enough siamese in the world. I had to look for months and months to find a wedgehead siamese. There are an abundance of puppies in the newspapers but not nearly enough siamese. There has been a business made on paying hundereds of extra dollars for breeding rights. The breeders that are out there dont want any competition.
Plus I go to the shelter every few weeks and I have never seen a purebred siamese in a shelter.
I know that alot of people that are in here are shelter workers. I DO firmly believe that domestic cats should be altered at once. There are too many domestic kittens.
PLEASE EVERY ONE BE MORE LIKE THE DOG COMMUNITY.
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the advice. I have 3 other cats and 6 dogs and run a rescue for parrots so YES I do understand some of the dangers and the understanding of how many animals are euthanized every single day.Every animal in my house with the exception of my two Siamese were rescued and fixed. Thank you for your financial concern but I am a stay at home Mother and take care of my animals FIRST with my human children
That is why I was asking not expecting to be flamed. I appreciate the private messages AND the following response.I have been rescuing one kitten/cat at a time from my local shelter. People want pure bred kittens period and I am unable to rescue everything.
I knew they had to be older as I have helped with many kittens births over the years. I just was unsure on how to keep them seperate. I was afraid of posting here in fear of dealing with reprucussions. I am glad that people feel passionate about preventing unwanted kittens/cats. However these little beings are VERY much wanted.
I understand that this was a forum for everyone with the love of cats. Adopted, bought, rescued or found
post #5 of 20
Did I flame you? It was not my intent to. I simply pointed out that if you breed you are a breeder, and sought to put you in mind of information I did not know if you had or not. As for not being enough siamese we seem to have an abundance of them here, but possibly not where you are.

I did not seek to flame, merely to educate.
post #6 of 20
This poster had a SIMPLE question-- when are female cats old enough to breed? She didn't ask for her plans to be approved by any of us, or to be talked or guilted out of what she has every right to do if she chooses.

I understand that a lot of posters here have seen up close and personal the impact of overpopulation of cats, but it gets really preachy and it's a disservice to members of this board who ask simple questions only to be given lectures. I've seen it in many other threads in the less than 1 week I have been on this board, and it's really sad that people are put on the defense when they're asking for general advice.

Just my .02.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by megmar6853
There are not enough siamese in the world. I had to look for months and months to find a wedgehead siamese. There are an abundance of puppies in the newspapers but not nearly enough siamese. There has been a business made on paying hundereds of extra dollars for breeding rights. The breeders that are out there dont want any competition.
Plus I go to the shelter every few weeks and I have never seen a purebred siamese in a shelter.
Often the purebreds have their own rescue organizations. Here is a link to one in Virginia.
http://va.siameserescue.org/
They have nine pages of adoptable Siamese rescues.

MakingUsCrazie: the way to keep your cats separate is to keep them in separate rooms. It is a good idea to limit the amount of breeding, even if breeding purebreds, but at six months it is past time to separate them!

Maybe you can check with your vet for how old your girl should be before she can safely be bred. You may not have wanted flames, but with just the info given on your first post it didn't sound like you knew what you were doing!

This forum is for every catlover. Welcome.
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by makinguscrazie
I have two Siamese that I will be breeding only 2x(then they both become fixed). I already have both litters spoken for through friends and family. They are my pets and I am not a breeder. My babies are only 6 months old but my male has been trying to mate with my female. I know it is too soon and she throws him off. How old should I expect them to be?
Makinguscrazie....If you don't mind me asking....how did you acquire these 2 Siamese? It is very important, even if you don't intend to breed full time to take responsibility to ensure that these cats are not genetically related. If you acquired them through a breeder, the breeder should be able to mentor you and answer questions. However, if you do not have a mentor....may I suggest you send a PM to Gayef who is the moderator of this board and a siamese breeder.

Katie

P.S. I am glad to read that you intend to have the cats spayed after a couple of litters...however, please also make sure that the kittens only go into homes which promise to spay/neuter as well. If you need a sample contract, just let me know.
post #9 of 20
I won't comment on the breeding except to say it has always been my thought that one can only breed titled registered purebreds? My Siamese is a show quality purebred with a pedigree a mile long and IF she did participate in a cat show and actually won, I might have then been eligible to breed her with another pedigreed medically and genetically checked Siamese male. However, I know breeding is a very complicated business and my work just did not give me the time for the cat shows, the qualifying and all the work so I had her spayed. She may not have been a great cat show girl anyway tho she is such a Diva that I think she would have been wonderful at it.

I do know I was instructed - if I opted to breed her - I would need a mentor and the woman who bred her was actually willing to mentor me. I do think 6 months is WAY too early though some Siamese actually can go into heat at four months! Mine did and I can tell you I did not want her having to cope with that ever again (poor baby!! She was in agony!).

So, first, you need to thoroughly check the cats' backgrounds - get their pedigrees and registries and the rest of it. And find a mentor - Gayef wpould indeed be good but it might be especially helpful to have someone close to whom you could talk to in an emergency! The breeders of the cats - I am assuming they are from different breeders since you would not breed two siblings (too many medical problems, never mind the genetic complications! - and of course the moral issues!_ - so maybe one of the breeders can mentor you???

It is important to learn as much you can before you undertake this. No breeder I know finds this easy. It is rewarding but can almost be a fulltime job. You need to be set up to care for the kittens and have some medical and genetic knowledge about caring for them.
There are so many complications - some that never occured to me until I came across a web site about someone who bred her cat and ended up in breeder he**. She had to find a male which meant paying the fees to ensure he was healthy and promising that breeder first pick. And then the mama did not like being a mama (not uncommon in young Queens) and she lost some of the kittens. It was a nightmare! So yu do have to be prepared for everything. If I can recall the web site, I'll post it. It certainly gave me a different perspective on breeding - and we had a rescued cat when I was a child that gave birth in my bed so I thought it could not be that difficult. I was soooo wrong!!!

I am a physician and I would not try this without a mentor, a titled pedigreed cat, a medically genetically pedigreed titled sire who I had vetted, a special area of my home for the mama and her babies and I would spend a good year in research and talking to others who did it.

I am glad you plan to have your Siamese spayed after two litters. Why 2? I guess I do not know if I would take that chance but that's just me.
post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone and what a great idea to find someone to help. Actually I have contacted my males breeder and she is going to come and help if any problems arise. They are NOT from the same litter but born very close together from different breeders. I traveled quite a bit to acquire my female.I am only breeding them 2x as I have found homes for 2 litters(and a few but will only breed them 2x). Everyone that will adopt will sign a contract NOT to breed them.
When I got my two Siamese I indeed looked at Siamese rescue as I originally had no intention of breeding them. However, they had nothing under the age of 8 that was good with children or other dogs. I know since then they had a big increase of cats and kittens. I am not trying to increase the unwanted pet population as I have guaranteed homes for all of them that are born.
I wanted to come here and ask questions to people that have more experience. This is NOT something that I am doing on a whim and want to research and do it appropriately.
Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by makinguscrazie
Thanks everyone and what a great idea to find someone to help. Actually I have contacted my males breeder and she is going to come and help if any problems arise. They are NOT from the same litter but born very close together from different breeders. I traveled quite a bit to acquire my female.I am only breeding them 2x as I have found homes for 2 litters(and a few but will only breed them 2x). Everyone that will adopt will sign a contract NOT to breed them.
When I got my two Siamese I indeed looked at Siamese rescue as I originally had no intention of breeding them. However, they had nothing under the age of 8 that was good with children or other dogs. I know since then they had a big increase of cats and kittens. I am not trying to increase the unwanted pet population as I have guaranteed homes for all of them that are born.
I wanted to come here and ask questions to people that have more experience. This is NOT something that I am doing on a whim and want to research and do it appropriately.
Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.
I still suggest contacting Gayef...she is the moderator here and you can send her a PM. She is very good at responding. She breeds old style siamese and she also lives in Virginia. I'm glad that you are making eveyone who gets these kittens sign a spay/neuter contract. You should also have them send you a copy of the spay/neuter certificate to ensure it was done. Some breeders hold the registration paperwork until they receive the certificate from the owner. Many groups do not like placing kittens into homes with young children because young children do not always know how to act around kittens and kittens certainly don't know how to act around young children. To be on the safe side, interactions should be monitored to avoid injuries to either the child or the kitten.

Another thing you can do is offer to take these kittens back at any point, thus avoiding the possibility of any of them ending up in a shelter or rescue. Life happens..and sometimes people find themselves no longer able to own their cat...so by offering to take the cat back...you give the new owners an option if things don't work out. You may even want to check into having these kittens microchipped with your name and address listed first and the new owner can be listed 2nd.

Katie
post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 
That is a great idea regarding microchipping. My cats/kittens are only being given to family and close friends. In fact I am going to have them fixed for them when it is time. Nobody that will be taking a kitten is interested in paperwork for them as they are only to be much loved pets.
Believe me I completely understand about placing with small children. I have a 2 and a 4 year old and although they have been taught from day one they are always supervised to avoid any accidents.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by makinguscrazie
I have two Siamese that I will be breeding only 2x(then they both become fixed). I already have both litters spoken for through friends and family. They are my pets and I am not a breeder. My babies are only 6 months old but my male has been trying to mate with my female. I know it is too soon and she throws him off. How old should I expect them to be?
Hi and welcome to TCS. I am the "GayeF" that a couple of the respondants here have mentioned - sorry to be so long in getting back to you but I have been away on vacation and have only just returned. I am a CFA-registered cattery breeding Old-Style Siamese cats, also in Virginia. Whereabouts are you located? Perhaps we could chat either by phone or email, or if you are close enough (I live just north of Richmond in Ashland) maybe we could get together and have a coffee somewhere?

In answer to your question about what age would be appropriate to begin breeding your queen ... the general rule of thumb is either one year of age or 8 pounds. With Siamese, it is sometimes hard to get to the 8 pound rule as the females can be on the small side, but one year is a good all-around time to start breeding her. Of course, keep in mind that individuals are .. well, individual - so your girl may be ready a month or so earlier or later ... you will have to observe and make that call for her.

At 6 months old, it is possible that your male is ready to breed. However, I am thinking the behavior you are observing may be more accurately described as dominance behavior than it is sexual. However, the thing to keep in mind here is that cats are induced ovulators. This means that even though your girl is NOT in estrus, your male CAN impregnant her if he is successful at breeding her. This is why you should keep them separated until you are ready for your girl to become pregnant.

Now - I have a couple of questions for you as well:

Are your Siamese pedigreed? Which registry association holds their peds? Have you spoken to both of their breeders and do you have permission from both breeders to mate them? If so, wonderful! If not, then I strongly encourage you to discuss this with both of them in order to make 100% certain you are not violating any terms or conditions.

Tell me more about your cats - why do you feel you want to breed them, other than the reason you stated above (having homes for all the kittens)? Do they possess a superior type - are they excellent examples of the standard - are they exceptionally healthy all the way down their line of ancestry? You've mentioned that you've done some research and that is a good start - so tell me what you've learned. What did you focus on in your research and how has it helped you?

Looking forward to getting to know you better -

~gf~
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravyn
You are a breeder. The definition of breeder is 'one who breeds'. You are breeding. Doesn't matter if it is once or a trillion times. Breeding cats once makes you a breeder.

Six months is way too early. Your male should not even be near your female. If she gets pregnant now she will likely be too small to give birth naturally.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you want to breed them? Do you realize (and you may not) that it puts your female at extreme risk? She could die, develop infections, or even eat her kittens. Are you financially prepared for all the emergencies that could arise? Even if you fix them both after letting them breed, there can be problems down the line. Both will likely develop a spraying and marking habit that will not be broken by neutering or spaying. The female, even fixed, will have an increased risk of developing mammary cancer later in life.

If your friends and families want kittens so much, please refer them to a rescue and have them save a life, rather than create new ones that will take up homes that could go to cats already here and in genuine need. There are tons of siamese languishing in shelters.

Please, seriously think over this decision and research all you can before going through with it. Your female needs to be older anyway, so PLEASE keep them seperate while you are researching.

This is not meant as being harsh or an attack in any way. You may simply not be aware of all the dangers and great expenses of breeding. I'm merely trying to help you see all ends before you commit to something that may have serious repercussions down the line.
Ravyn,

Please see your PM Inbox for an important message from me.

Thanks in advance,

~gf~
post #15 of 20
I have no message...?
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by makinguscrazie
That is a great idea regarding microchipping. My cats/kittens are only being given to family and close friends. In fact I am going to have them fixed for them when it is time. Nobody that will be taking a kitten is interested in paperwork for them as they are only to be much loved pets.
Believe me I completely understand about placing with small children. I have a 2 and a 4 year old and although they have been taught from day one they are always supervised to avoid any accidents.
That's great that you are personally going to take the kittens to be fixed...definately reduces the paperwork and you will "know" they have been fixed. If you need a low cost clinic in Virginia, just click the link below and scroll down to Virginia:

http://www.lovethatcat.com/spayneuter.html

I see that Gaye has posted a response...so hopefully the 2 of you can talk and she can address any additional questions you have.

Katie
post #17 of 20
Hi, just to comment on a post left on the first page of this thread...

It happens often when people come on here and ask a question about breeding and since this board is all about promoting spaying and neutering and discouraging backyard breeders, the first thing we do is ask why they want to breed and to make sure they are doing it properly. This is okay to do and is what we should do because those are the things we believe in. It always happens though, that the person responding to the post asking these questions like 'are you qualified and knowledgable enough about everything to breed your cats' or what are you going to do if this or that happens it may be expensive, even though they usually include a little disclaimer that they are not trying to be rude or insulting, just simply asking in case you weren't aware, the original person asking the question gets all offended of being "flamed". That is never the intent of those types of reactions. The post earlier clearly said she was just trying to inform the poster and make sure she was breeding for the right reasons. No one wants to flame anyone for their questions or ideas and beliefs. But since this message board promotes fixinf your cats and not breeding irresponsibly, we SHOULD be asking these questions to make sure the person is qualified. No one should get offended.

Sorry if this doesn't belong here but I see it happening all the time. If you are going to come onto a forum like this that is all about the health and safety of cats including spaying and neutering, then expect to be asked a few questions about your intentions.

PS-the shelters around here have a large amount of siamese, young and old, dark colors and flame points and lilac points etc...do a petfinder search and you will see all the siamese waiting in shelters to find homes.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen
It happens often when people come on here and ask a question about breeding and since this board is all about promoting spaying and neutering and discouraging backyard breeders, the first thing we do is ask why they want to breed and to make sure they are doing it properly. This is okay to do and is what we should do because those are the things we believe in.
Jen, while what you have said here is, for the most part, accurate, the fact is that this Forum is about assisting anyone who, FOR WHATEVER REASON, finds themselves caring for a pregnant cat. So, for that reason, it really ISN'T OK for people to come in and ask such blatantly inflammatory questions.

You are absolutely right in your comments about TCS being all about the health and welfare of cats and yes, spay/neuter does play an important role in both of those things. But the FACT is that cats get pregnant, whether it is planned or not. This Forum was born to assist those who either are currently caring for or who will be caring for a pregnant cat - again - NO MATTER WHY THE CATS ARE PREGNANT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen
It always happens though, that the person responding to the post asking these questions like 'are you qualified and knowledgable enough about everything to breed your cats' or what are you going to do if this or that happens it may be expensive, even though they usually include a little disclaimer that they are not trying to be rude or insulting, just simply asking in case you weren't aware, the original person asking the question gets all offended of being "flamed". That is never the intent of those types of reactions. The post earlier clearly said she was just trying to inform the poster and make sure she was breeding for the right reasons. No one wants to flame anyone for their questions or ideas and beliefs. But since this message board promotes fixinf your cats and not breeding irresponsibly, we SHOULD be asking these questions to make sure the person is qualified. No one should get offended.
But they DO get offended - and if you read the stickys I left at the beginning of this Forum, it clearly states that they can feel comfortable asking questions here - so when the membership comes rushing in where angels fear to tread it only serves to alienate the original poster and NO ONE is helped, least of all, the cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen
Sorry if this doesn't belong here but I see it happening all the time. If you are going to come onto a forum like this that is all about the health and safety of cats including spaying and neutering, then expect to be asked a few questions about your intentions.

PS-the shelters around here have a large amount of siamese, young and old, dark colors and flame points and lilac points etc...do a petfinder search and you will see all the siamese waiting in shelters to find homes.
Quite frankly, I feel that it is none of our business what their intentions may be ... and if someone has clearly decided to breed their cats, then the only responsible thing we can do is assist them in that decision whether or not we happen to agree with it and then strongly encourage spay/neuter as soon as those kittens are weaned.

As for the large amount of Siamese in shelters ... I will address this yet once again -

There are NOT large numbers of SIAMESE in shelters. This is totally inaccurate information. There MAY BE large numbers of MIXED-BREED DOMESTIC cats that LOOK LIKE SIAMESE in shelters. There is a difference. If makinguscrazie has healthy, pedigreed cats, permission from the breeders of those cats, a knowledgable and willing mentor and she already has responsible, loving homes for all the kittens then there is absolutely no reason why she shouldn't try breeding.

~gf~
post #19 of 20
Thank you gayef. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. I thought that the purpose of this forum is to help people. Not to judge.
You are right about the shelters. I have never seen a full siamese in a shelter. I have seen plenty of mixes, but never a full petigreed siamese( traditional or modern).
It took me months to find a siamese, because there simply are not any breeders in the area that I live. I want to give the people in my area a chance to get a siamese. I love siamese so much I want to share them with my community.
post #20 of 20
We've had several siamese mixes and none have been returned for not being full siamese. We even had one this weekend that was scooped up...told the person it could have been the result of a mogie and not a "siamese" and the adoptor didn't care.

I agree however that we cannot use the homeless population against someone who has a registered cat. In this case, the owner is doing a very responsible thing by spaying/neutering and promising to take the kittens back if things do not work out.

Katie
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