Now I'm ready (long...sorry)

Originally Posted by Rockcat

Hmmm...all men so far, excuses for you not to join the team (being ordained all of a sudden became an issue), and now they want to keep it quiet. Kinda makes one get the impression they like their "boy's only" club.

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Just what I was thinking. I hope you get it!

Since it's been a while since I've heard anything, I emailed the head of the chaplain team this morning. Just heard back and he said he's "still researching" the legalities of a non-ordained person serving in the position. He'll be gone for the next few weeks and said he'll be in touch when he gets back. This is getting so frustrating. I really feel like I'm being given the run around and that they're hoping I'll just give up. NOT going to happen. The men who apply for the position don't have to go through all this!

Originally Posted by ugaimes

This is such crap that they're putting you through Eileen!
Do you know any civil rights attorneys? They'd have a field day with this one!

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Thanks, Amy! I did ask a friend who's an attorney to research the "law" in question, but she hasn't been able to find anything. I'm really not sure what else to do at this point. Since they haven't officially rejected my application, I really can't take any action. I've been talking to a lot of people though, seeking opinions and getting support, so if it is turned down, I'll be ready!

Good for you!, don't give up. You have every right to be there!. I'm sending good vibes your way.

Since it had been a few weeks since I'd heard anything about the chaplain's program, I emailed the coordinator this morning. He just called me back and said my application has been denied because under our state revised code because the confidentiality issue could not be resolved. He still couldn't give me the statute they referred to me when making this decision. When I asked for something in writing he initially refused then said he'll look into it. Sounds suspicious to me. I think the way all of this has been handled smacks of it being a gender issue. They've given me the runaround, made excuses, etc... So my next step is to write a letter to follow up on our phone conversation and again request the statute. I'm also going to get all the documentation I have together and have a lawyer I know look into this. So, please keep the good vibes coming. I may a fight on my hands.

This just stinks of gender bias. You can't be a chaplain because you are not ordained. And you can't be ordained because you aren't male.

I don't understand that confidentiality stuff. Are they claiming that the only people who have legal confidentiality are ordained ministers? I am sure that there are many other professional people who can claim that - including journalists. And I just googled to find a reference to confidentiality and the ministry, and found this, as the very first link.

http://www.archomaha.com/Charter/CodeofConduct.html

It refers to "ordained and lay ministers", with exactly the same responsibilities.

I think they went searching for a clause to use so they didn't have to hire you, either protecting the "good old boys", or trying to keep that job as one that only fully ordained ministers/priests could hold.

Originally Posted by Sammie5

This just stinks of gender bias. You can't be a chaplain because you are not ordained. And you can't be ordained because you aren't male.

I don't understand that confidentiality stuff. Are they claiming that the only people who have legal confidentiality are ordained ministers? I am sure that there are many other professional people who can claim that - including journalists. And I just googled to find a reference to confidentiality and the ministry, and found this, as the very first link.

http://www.archomaha.com/Charter/CodeofConduct.html

It refers to "ordained and lay ministers", with exactly the same responsibilities.

I think they went searching for a clause to use so they didn't have to hire you, either protecting the "good old boys", or trying to keep that job as one that only fully ordained ministers/priests could hold.

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Yeah, that's what they're claiming. Doesn't sound right to me at all. I haven't had the time to research the issue much, so I greatly appreciate the link. Good info. Thanks! This is definitely the "good old boys" network at work no matter how much they try to deny it.

Here's another link.

http://www.marketplaceministries.com...ains/qual.html

Look at item 3 toward the bottom of the page.

There certainly appears to be precedent for unordained female chaplains. It's just a matter of whether you have the energy and strength to pursue this.

Don't they realize the advantages of having a female chaplin???
Hoping this issue turns out well for you!!

Eileen, I don't know how the law views this in your jurisdiction, but is there a confidentiality agreement that you could sign. A sort of contract to keep confidences told to you as part of your job. Then when you met with someone who wanted to seek your help, you could make it clear to them at the start that you are bound by a duty of confidence and anything they tell you will remain confidential.

I know that this application has not been successful this time, but it might be something to consider in case you come up against this kind of obstacle again.

Originally Posted by eilcon

Since it had been a few weeks since I'd heard anything about the chaplain's program, I emailed the coordinator this morning. He just called me back and said my application has been denied because under our state revised code because the confidentiality issue could not be resolved. He still couldn't give me the statute they referred to me when making this decision. When I asked for something in writing he initially refused then said he'll look into it. Sounds suspicious to me. I think the way all of this has been handled smacks of it being a gender issue. They've given me the runaround, made excuses, etc... So my next step is to write a letter to follow up on our phone conversation and again request the statute. I'm also going to get all the documentation I have together and have a lawyer I know look into this. So, please keep the good vibes coming. I may a fight on my hands.

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What a bunch of baloney they are giving you! My first thought WAS to take this to the media in your area. Sounds like a good story. I would talk to the lawyer first though. It drives me crazy that they have someone who wants to help them and they are shoing her out for technical reasons. The other thought was that you should try to be a chaplain somewhere else, like a hospital.
My best friend was brought up Catholic, and wanted to be a priest. She converted to Episcopalian (sp?) and before she was ordained was a chaplain at a hospital. Now she works at a private school as a chaplain there. She did have to go through a ton of studying and got her masters degree from yale. Too much work for me though.

I'll take the other side. I think that would be beneficial to have a woman chaplain with the police dept. However, the above concerns MUST be addressed for legal reasons. An entire investigation and prosecution of a crime could legally be in jeopardy if the suspect confides in you. A defense lawyer would have a field day. Imagine that the defense calls you to testify in court. I do not think that you are protected and can claim that the conversation you had with the defendant as privledge information. It would be a very sticky situation. There are times that a victim or perp will only be comfortable speaking with a woman. How would you feel if some perp walks due to you status.

I don't ahve any advice, I just want to say Good Luck!

Thanks for the support and feedback, everybody. I feel strongly enough about this to pursue it. I'm really skeptical about whether the "law" the coordinator refers to even exists. I've asked him for the source several times but kept getting the same response, "I'm looking into it." I know of at least four other women religious serving as police chaplains in other states, so there is a precedent for this. Will keep you posted.

NavDoc, you make excellent points. I agree with all of them, she must have confidentiality protected. I am just not convinced that the prospective employer is correct, that the ONLY way to get there is for ordained ministers to have this job. I think there are lots of examples out there that eilcon can use to show that there are alternatives.

It sure sounds to me like they are using this (very valid) concern as a reason to not hire her, because she doesn't fit their standard of who should have the job. Not because it's an issue they can't resolve.

Most software companies have employees sign an NDA (Non disclosure Agreement) as part of the application process.

I honestly see no difference between a standard NDA and a contract of confidentiality.

Good luck to you, thoughts and prayers heading your way.

I am no lawyer, but I do think that NDA's are a civil matter vice criminal.

Well guys, it's been over a month now since I wrote to the head of the police clergy team as a follow up to the conversation in which he told me my application had been denied. I requested something in writing stating the specific reason and the statute on which they based their decision. I know he received the letter because I followed up with him a couple of weeks after I mailed it. He said he was still "looking into" the matter. He's been "looking into" it for months.

Does it seem unreasonable to request something in writing? Personally, I think it's a matter of professional courtesy. When I asked him about in our last phone conversation he said, "I don't think that's going to be possible." Why not? This whole thing has been going on way too long. It's been a year now since I first submitted my application and it's just been one excuse after the other.

Most people I know have been encouraging me to pursue this. My mom, however, believes I should just let it go. She thinks it would just be
too difficult to work with a bunch of male clergy members that don't want me to be part of their team. I really don't care how they feel about me.
They're not the ones I'm going to be ministering to. It's the officers, their spouses and the victims that are my concern. They are the ones who I need to build relationships and trust with. I already know from speaking with several officers I know that they feel there is a definite need for a female police chaplain in our local department.

My next step, which I plan to do this week, is to contact an attorney. I may really have to put up a fight to get this position, but I'm determined to see it through. Please continue to send good vibes and prayers. And, if you
have any suggestions, let me know. Thanks so much!

I'm right there pulling for you. You go girl!