Spayed/Neutered? thread hijack - Can breeding be ethical? - Page 3

There are a lot of differences in behavior in cat breeds. I have read books on the subjects. For instance, Persians are placid, while Abyssinians are extremely active. Someone in apartment (like myself) might not want a very active cat running around, but might prefer a laid back cat that doesn't run or climb (like my Persians). On the other hand, another person might want a very active cat, so they would get an Abyssinian. It's definetly not just looks.

I said mainly, not exclusively, looks. Would you seriously compare an "active" Abyssinian (which I've never had) or Siamese (several) to a Viszla, Boxer, Husky, or Border Collie (high-energy dogs)? The difference is in the degree! Our Siamese were active maybe 7 or 8 hours a day, at most, while our Boxer and two Viszlas were really "on the go", meaning running, jumping, fetching, for roughly twice that amount of time. My nephew's elderly Jack Russell can still run rings around any "high-energy" cat. It's the same with size. A 20 lb. Maine Coon is just over three times the size of a 6 lb. Singapura. A St. Bernard can be 100 times the weight, or more, of a Chihuahua.
I don't think the difference is "a lot" in cat breeds, at least not compared to dogs.

Active only 7-8 hours a day? Well, that's a lot compared to my persian who is never active.
Of course there are more differences between dog breeds than between cat breeds. But clearly there are a lot of differences in behavior between cat breeds as well.

Believe it or not, when I took Jamie to a clinic because of his hyperactivity, there was a Persian patient (young female) that made him look placid, and at the time he often didn't sleep for over 24 hours at a stretch! She could only be described as h**l on wheels!
Have you ever seen "Cats and Dogs"? The film is really cute, but I still can't figure out why they made the "evil mastermind", Mr. Jingles, a Persian, and his loyal sidekick an Exotic Shorthair.

My response to that comment is always the same ...

"OK fine, you want your kids to view the Miracle of Birth. Then you must take those kids down to the local shelter's E room and also have them witness the tragedy of death in order to bring them full-circle."

I don't understand why some are responsible and some aren't either. And it makes me extremely angry when breeders are not responsible. It weakens the gene pool, it creates and increases the chances of genetic anomolies, there are rampant health issues in every breed being reproduced every day, and it just makes the responsible breeders out there look bad since we all seem to be lumped into the same apple cart by most people who frown upon our passion.

*sigh* But the problem here is the use of the phrase "could have been". As has already been pointed out, there are people out there who, for whatever their reasons, will not consider a shelter or rescue pet - they want a pedigreed animal. Why? I don't know and it isn't for me to speculate whether these people are snobby, status-seekers or whatever ... they just don't want to consider adopting from shelters or rescues. So, IMO, to say that a kitten born of a planned breeding takes away a home from a needy shelter or rescue pet just doesn't stand up. Additionally, I have to say that when someone contacts me about purchasing one of my kittens, the FIRST thing I ask them is whether or not they have checked with Siamese Rescue to see if they have a suitable match. And in one case, I was able to convince the person to adopt a kitten from the Rescue. I ~ALWAYS~ refer them to their local shelter first, and if they are dead-set upon having a certain breed, to contact a breed-specific rescue to continue their search if it is determined they are not a good match for one of my kittens.

I wish I could enlighten you as to the why's people feel they want a pedigreed animal over a shelter or rescue one. I also have my own "soupkitchen" kitties that I feed and care for on a daily basis ... and they are mostly feral, but I think they "love" me as best as their little feral hearts will let them.

I wish you luck in answering your questions ... but I am not the best qualified to assist you. My bias towards knowing solidly what health issues are present, what genetic problems may exist and what to expect as to temperment, personality and expected traits may overshadow my opinions.

I find that so hard to believe looking at mine two. Well, there got to be an exception from every rule.

But, there is ~every~ danger of certain breeds becoming extinct!! That is the primary reason I breed ~~~CFA-REGISTERED OLD-STYLE SIAMESE CATS~~~~. Most breeders registered with CFA are modern, show-style breeders and they are about a dime a dozen these days. But the true, honest-to-goodness Old-Style Siamese cats are nearly all gone now! There are only a VERY small number of breeders breeding CFA pedigreed O-SS. I have copies of pedigrees on my female that date back to 1897 with NO other cats but Siamese! Tonka, my male, has pedigrees going back to 1903! There just aren't a lot of people who can say that. Most of them, somewhere along the line, contain an outcross to say ... a colorpoint, which then makes the cat a COLORPOINT in breed, not a Siamese. Again, it looks like a Siamese, but in the registry association I choose to support, they are NOT Siamese.

*sigh* A couple of years ago, my county proposed a local ordinance that would require hobby breeders breeding only one litter per year to register with the county's department of agriculture, purchase a license and pay fees for each breeding animal as well as their offspring. The cost to register was $100. The cost for each breeding animal was $100 per. The cost for each kitten was $100 per. I was all for it until I learned that this money would go to the county to pay for the expenses of enforcing this ordinance - NOT TO THE DESERVING AND VERY NEEDY COUNTY SHELTER where it would do much more to help the animals. I voted against it, but NOT because I disagreed with the meat of the plan. I simply wanted for the money, or at least a part of it, to go to the animals in need. And until the individual locales can find a way to put the money where it will be best served, this kind of regulation is simply not the answer.

*blush* I just want you to know that I truly do everything in my power to retain your respect and admiration. Your very kind and generous comments about me brought tears to my eyes this evening because someone actually "gets it". It seems somehow not enough to just say thank you for making me feel good this evening, but those seem to be the only words that I can muster at the moment. I am overwhelmed and again, will promise to continue my breeding program in such as way as to never earn your ill-regard.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart,

~gf~

Gaye.....I also have to say that you have had a HUGE impact on my view of breeders. Now I actually believe there are breeders out there who truly do it for the right reasons.

BTW....if I ever find someone looking for that purebred siamese that they cannot find at the meezer rescue...I'll send them your way.

Katie

P.S. If your little feral colony isn't fixed....I know a place that will do spays/neuters for a $20 donation.

Let me just post a reply from the Neuteress of the Night:

It is absolutely, without a doubt, imperative that you address the SOURCE of unwanted litters in your community, regardless of how many animals you rescue. Ignoring the source is the fatal error that is a direct cause of animals dying in your community. You will NEVER be able to rescue as many animals as are being bred if you ignore the "Free to a good home" advertisements. NEVER. It is no lie that they can breed far quicker than you can adopt. Period.

If you don’t believe me I want you to do me a favor. Go to the kitchen and take out as many pots, pans, bowls, glasses & cups as you can find. Place them strategically around the kitchen. Put the stopper in the sink drain and turn the faucet on full blast. (Once the faucet is on, you can not turn it off or down.) Now start bailing the water out of the sink. Let me know when you are able to catch up. Each drop of water is a litter. The "FREE" ads are the faucet. The pots, pans, bowls, glasses & cups are all rescue groups, and the sink is the "pound." You are the vessel that is bailing them out.

We can’t work much harder at this folks, so it’s become very apparent that we must work a hell of a lot smarter.

What follows is a series of ideas and attitudes that can help you address the most serious contributing source of unwanted litters. In my personal experience (having made lots of calls) the greatest "trick" is to remember how important it is to focus. If you can control your focus, remain unpretentious (not "holier than thou") and non-confrontational, you will experience great success encouraging people not to let their pets breed.

http://www.ahimsatx.org/nnl/docs/HowTo.htm

I think if we only focus on breeders...we are missing the single greatest source of our homeless population.

Katie

OK, I didn't read the whole thread, but wanted to throw in my views.

IMO responsible breeding is very much ethical. I am the keeper of the US records for all breedings for the New Guinea Singing Dog (OK, an endangered animal, so probably not the best example.) If we didn't carefully breed, including working for maximum genetic diversity, then these animals would become extinct.

Breeding just to let the animal "have the experience" or "so my kids can see it" is, IMO, not a responsible approach. Of course, if we spay/neutered all animals there wouldn't be a next generation. If this happened all the arguments about "there are so many unwanted animals" would be moot, since there wouldn't be any more. I hav five dogs and nine cats that live at my house (and all try to sleep in the bed at the same time some nights.) All of them are sterilized (spay/neutered.)

I also believe that there are plenty of responsible breeders. Those that volunteer at shelters or otherwise work in rescue (including me) are often exponsed to only the irresponsible ("back yard") breeders and so get the impression that "most breeders" are this way. While there are absolutely plenty of bad breeders, there are also plenty of responsible ones. Of course, the responsible breeders produce far fewer animals and generally rarely make any money at it.

Katie, I hope you don't think I WAS just focusing on breeders. I was trying to stress BYB's and the owners who don't spay or nueter their mixed breed pet cats as well. I have a confession to make though. I happen to LOVE the variety that mixes bring. I own two very obvious ruddy Abyssinian mixes. They are the love of my life. They are smart and beautiful without the high-price tag of a purebred Aby and I also saved them from kill shelters. IMO, you can't beat that. When I get more cats in the future, I hope to adopt more Aby mixes. If ALL irresponsible breeding stopped, then only purebreds would exist (or manufactured mixes as is the case for the new designer "breeds" of dogs). I prefer mixed breed dogs as well. If I had to pay hundreds of $$$$ because of a shortage of mixed breeds and had to go with a purebred, that wouldn't make me too happy either.

I guess there is no easy solution, but I do agree that there is a horribly high pet-overpopulation problem and IRRESPONSIBLE breeding be curtailed somehow.

It clearly doesn't look we are nowhere near having all irresponcible breeding stopped. So, I don't think anyone has to worry about not being able to get a mixed breed cat or a moggy.