Spayed/Neutered? thread hijack - Can breeding be ethical?

So it is more responsible then to simply allow entire breeds of animals to become extinct?

I just find this type of extremist attitude to be downright ignorant and it makes me angry. I wasn't accusing you in specific, just asking how the "responsible" people at your shelter might feel about causing the annhiliation of entire breeds - and how they find that to be in any way ethical and responsible.

There are certain "animal welfare" organizations whose basic tenant is to see to it that no animals are bred for domestic purposes, including pets. They endeavor to see that ALL domestic animals are altered so they cannot reproduce. If they get their way, there will come a day where the world we live in will not include cats and dogs (along with a very long list of other animals) at all ever again. POOF, presto chango, they will be gone forever.

And this is responsible ... how?

~gf~

Well, I've not been terribly impressed with the breeders who work with purebreeds. Most of them are crap and the world could do without the low quality litters these morons create.

And I'm not calling for the extinction of anything, but last time I checked there are millions and millions of unwanted housecats being euthanized each year in the USA alone.

So given (a) the crappiness of most breeders and (b) the huge number of surplus kittens, I'm ready to stand with the people who very aggressively advocate the S/N of all available cats. I still see purebreed cats being abandoned or "lost" with too much frequency. Let's go ahead and swing the pendulum back in the direction where cats actually have some "worth" as individual pets and aren't viewed as being disposable or a dime a dozen.

OK, well first things first ... if you are going to engage in an intelligent debate, then let's make certain your terminology is accurate. A "purebreed" animal is one which "breeds true" while a pedigreed animal is one where the ancestry is able to be traced and found to contain only animals of that specific breed as it is defined by the registering association. Not all pedigreed animals are purebreeds. Not all purebreeds are pedigreed. They are two completely different entities which can each possess traits inherent to a specific breed.

For the purposes of discussing breeders and the animals we work with, the accurate way to describe our cats would be to call them "pedigreed".

And let the congregation say a hearty AMEN! I couldn't agree with you more. However, the ~operative~ word in your comment above is "MOST" - notice that we are not saying "ALL". This gives one pause to believe that there may actually be breeders who are not ... as you put it ... crap and/or morons who create low-quality kittens. And while we are at it, would you please define "low-quality" as it relates to any specific breed? Since the breed I am most familiar with would be Siamese cats - how about you tell me what you perceive a "low-quality" Siamese to be?

And the last time I checked, the actual number of those unwanted housecats being euthanized each year in the USA alone was made up of less than 2% "purebreeds" or pedigreed animals. I am just not getting how it is that you see ~responsible and ethical~ breeders contributing to the pet overpopulation crisis. Does it not seem MORE intelligent to you to concentrate your focus of effort on educating PET OWNERS not to prescribe to a throw-away mentality and to raise awareness of low- or no-cost spay/neuter clinics in the lower income brackets where the incidence of owner abandonment is the highest???

Well now you are just plain contradicting yourself ... you said you were not calling for the extinction of anything, but if you very aggressively advocate S/N of all available cats, then you are driving at an alarming rate of velocity straight down the road that leads directly into it.

Nano, I don't know why I have to keep clarifying this point, but here I go yet once again ... so please ready carefully -

I am all for S/N of the mixed-breed domestic population.

Go right ahead and I'll do whatever I can in the way of assisting. I'll educate, I'll advocate ... heck, I'll even stand outside on the street corner and wear a sandwich board if I have to. I am with you on getting the word out there to Spay or Neuter ~the mixed breed domestic cat population~ and let the good breeders who know what they are doing and more importantly WHY they are doing it go along their merry but knowledgable way in keeping disease, genetic anomalies, and yes, even unwanted kittens out of the equation.

WHERE do you see these "purebreed" cats being abandoned or lost, Nano? Because what I am afraid is confusing you here is that just because a cat LOOKS like a certain breed does NOT mean that it IS that breed. In order to BE that specific breed, it must possess blood as well as the proven ancestry that PROVES it is that breed. While I am not referring to any specific organization here, the cats I have seen listed as available Siamese in rescues and shelters today possess only about enough of the breed's actual DNA as would be produced if a pedigreed Siamese happened to walk by and sneeze on them. The fact is that they are NOT Siamese because they cannot prove by ancestry that they are. They LOOK like Siamese when in fact and by blood they are Mixed Breed Domestic Shorthairs. So, again, I ask you where you see all these "purebreed" cats being abandoned or lost?

Nano, if you really want to see advancement in resolving the pet overpopulation crisis, swinging a pendulum isn't the answer. Personally, I favor the swinging of a heavy baseball bat but unfortunately, polite society does frown upon resorting to such things and to do so would only serve to lower me to the standards of those extremists I so abhor.

In order for all cats to have worth as individual household pets, we must first educate the pet owning demographic most responsible for owner abandonment to change the way they perceive cats. Once we alter the mentality, we can begin to change the behavior.

It is my opinion that this topic is really better suited to the IMO Forum and I have copied it to the Moderator's Under Review area until all of the Mods can come to a general consensus on the final disposition of this thread. If it is decided that it is not appropriate for this Forum, it will be moved permanantly.

I oroginally posted this thread out of curiosity (partly because of the amount of people who come on and post that their cat has been knocked up 3 or 4 times since it was 8 months old, etc.) to see how many people here actually have all of their cats fixed, how many are working on it, and how many just dont see it as an important step of pet ownership. Then it was hijacked. I did not intend for breeding to be the main discussion. Personally, I believe that actually getting out there and educating people on proper pet care would go much farther than sitting around trying to pin the blame on a single party, as quite a few seem prone to doing. Could we please just return to the topic of the thread? (not meaning to sound pissy, just making a point)

Personally shelters that make extreme statements such as " There are no responsible breeders" are being very Irresponsible themselves.

Yes my cats have both been Neutered and I believe that for all pet owners the way to go is to spay/neuter their pets. However that said a Purebred Show animal or Breeding Animal is not the usual family pet.

I volunteer at a shelter and will tell you that most cats that appear to be purebreds are usually adopted immediately with the poor mixed breeds sometimes taking months if not years to adopt out. So while the rate of euthanisia is lower for purebreds, it is very much in part to the fact that potential adopters will grab those up first.

There is a part of me that understands why the shelter made the comment - they live with the rotten part of animal welfare. They see the results of bad breeders too often. If everyone spayed/neutered their pets, they would be out of business and I've never met a person in rescue who doesn't have that dream.

But I also see the need for highly responsible breeders to maintain a quality line for a breed. I think the issue is more that there are more irresponsible breeders than responsible breeders and they give the good breeders a bad name. The cost of over generalization.

The opperative word in this whole equasion is 'pets'.
All pet quality animals should be spayed or neutered, this goes for purebreds and mixbreeds.
A breeders animals are their pets (at least in the case of the resposible ones), but they are also breedstock and show animals.
Any animal that has a verifiable pedigree that is of show and/or breeding quality should be left intact and only in the hands of a registered cattery.

There are vast differences between Responsible Breeders, whom I wholeheartedly support, and Backyard Breeders and Kitten (or Puppy) Mills, which is where most of the "purebred" kittens you see in pet shops come from. The first level of education about purebred animals is to educate the public that CHEAPER IS NOT BETTER! Just because you *can* buy a Persian or Siamese kitten from an ad in the newspaper doesn't mean you *should*. Just because you can see a Bengal in the local pet store window doesn't mean it's a well-bred animal.

Lumping all breeders into the same category is degrading to those who do research the bloodlines and genetics, who don't overbreed their queens, whose breeding cats are members of the family, who offer health GUARANTEES and require CONTRACTS on their kittens, and who never actually make money on the sale of their kittens because of the level of care given prior to them leaving their home. In other words, to responsible and ethical breeders.

Replying to the original topic..

My oldest boy, CJ, is neutered. And my two girls, Lucy and Ethel, aren't yet. They are still too young. But I definitely plan to get them spayed as soon as they are big enough.

While I can see why someone would want a purebred/pedigree animal, I prefer mutts. lol All three of my cats were strays and I couldn't ask for better kitties! I work at an animal hospital and I know of a few clients who trap strays, get them fixed and get them their vaccines and let them go. I think that is so wonderful!!

Tucker & Mini are both "fixed" & when Skyler came into our lives I was happy to discover that someone had him nuetered..otherwise I probably would have had it done.

I totally agree... All of my animals (cept for the fish and they are kept same sex best of my ability) are fixed ... I love my pedegreed yorkie whom I got at the shelter , I wouldnt have been able to afford her otherwise.... and my bengal mix( no dna but she acts and looks it ) came from a shelter and my dlh came from a irriponsible owner allowed her cat to have a second litter...

My only trouble is with the mills and they aint cheaper ... I can get a bengal from a breeder for half of what the pet store wants..

There are many out there who call themselves breeders who have no business breeding. They do not do the proper research, they do not understand genetics, they are breeding to breed and not to perserve a breed or to maintain certain traits. They may even be registered, but that doesn't mean a hill of beans, because if you can pay the money, and pass the inspection you can be registered. Those people should be run out of business and what would be left would be the breeders who have studied the breed lines, understand the genetic traits that can be passed on, and are working to keep a breed as pure as possible, with only the best of the best continuing on.

As for the shelter comment- well, there is a shelter I know of that declaws EVERY cat or kitten that passes through the door- just like breeders who do not know what to do for the betterment of the breed, there are shelters that have their own agendas for whatever reason.

Actually, ethical breeders (those who are registered with a major cat association) do maintain a breed standard and generally do not make a large profit from breeding. It's a labour of love, if anything.

In fact, I wanted to breed Russian Blues for a while, did plenty of research about the breed standard and cat genetics, and was well on my way with Mik as a show cat (I may become a breeder yet). The Russian Blue breeders I met while showing Mik all maintain a healthy environment for their cats, their kittens are raised underfoot and cats given appropriate care and attention, and potential buyers are always carefully screened and selected. Any ethical breeder will demand the buyer sign a contract (mine are both two pages long) stating what can and cannot be done with the cat. Most cats are sold as pets, and usually go to a buyer already neutered/spayed or must be altered by a specific date stated in the contract. Most breeders also prohibit declawing, and should a breeder find out the buyer declaws their cat, the buyer can face potential legal action, and/or the breeder may demand the cat back (also often stated in contracts).

Quality Russian Blue cats and catteries in North America are all registered with CFA and/or TICA, and they breed Russian Blues to preserve the breed and the breed standard. The fiscal responsibilities can be overwhelming, and the larger the cattery, the more costly it becomes. Their purpose is far different than money grubbing and dishonest "backyard breeders", who sell their unregistered non-pedigreed cats to those who don't know any better. I'm not even going to go there. I think that's been discussed already on this thread.

There are so many wonderful cats at the Humane Society, SPCA and at other cat rescues, and none of them require any pedigree in order to be lovable. Many people who do purchase registered purebred cats have often done the research and have decided to go with a particular breed for a reason. But I love any DSH/moggie as much as I love my Russian Blues or any other breed of cat.

I would have to agree with Gaye on this (who is a registered CFA breeder if you're unaware). Before bringing up such a sensitive topic for many here, you could have considered the fact that there are many ethical breeders who contribute to this site.

Precisely. Many pedigreed cats cost into the thousands, and potential buyers are often screened extensively by the breeder selling the cat. Generally people who buy a cat from a registered breeder are well aware of the fiscal responsibility, and are unlikely to view their cat as "disposable" when the going gets rough. In fact, ethical breeders will ask that the cat be returned if the buyer cannot take care of the cat for unforseen reasons. Breeders are committed to the well-being of their cats from "cradle to grave".

I hear FAR too often that this cat is a Siamese because it has blue eyes or that cat is a Russian Blue because it is.... er... blue! I think Gaye has clearly defined all the dimensions of what a pedigree entails. I have nothing further to add.

Amen to that!

It's late so I cannot get in too much of a debate here BUT I have to say there are all manner of breeders (many disreputable, kitten millers really sho care less aboutr genetics, care, health etc) of their kittens and there are some wonderful select breeders (like Gaye and others who post here) who show their vcats for the love of the breed and for the same reason - and betterment and improving on the breed and yes, even its perpetuation - breed their animals with a vet tested and pedigreed cat. One cannot simply just lump all breeders together. It's unfair and simply not the way the world works.


I love my Siamese kitten who is a show quality pedigreed cat. She was worth every penny!! I have also loved many moggies in my time and treated them just as well as I do YY. Some of us prefer a certain kind of cat and love that breed and all it represents! We also love moggies and would do anything to help ANY cat!

I am not a breeder tho I contemplated showing YY. I simply do not have the time and it takes money, resources and much time to show and properly breed the champions of those shows. Maybe when I retire. I am angered by thse people who think they can make a few bucks by breeding their Siamese or other purebred simly because it is "purebred." Often the cat is not pedigreed and these folks know NOTHING about genetics or the family historry (ie pedigree) of the cat.

I even love ferals and have tamed a few in my time. I just happen to love Siamese and am currently searching for a blue point. There is a cute little blue point in Siamese Rescue. I could never show her - no pedigree and it is not sure where her mom came from or even if she is truly a purebred. But she looks adorable amyway.

I would NEVER buy a cat or any animal in a pet store needless to say but neither would I seek the classifeds for "free to good home" except maybe to ask them why they are consigning gtheir poor babies to an uncertain and probably hellish fate!

There are indeed and sadly too many cats for adoption in rescue centres across the world. And over the yrs I have done what I can to help - taming ferals, bottlefeeding babies, adopting kitties but I also think the variety of the cat world needs to be enhanced by the wonder of the varieties of the species that we have. That takes just as much work as rescue does and ensures a healthy diverse pedigreed cat population. And we are all unique - Siamese need a certain kind of companion as do Devon Rex or Bormans. And moggies also need many different kinds of people. It would be a very dull and boring cat world if there was only one variety!

But there is a huge difference between indiscriminate backyard breeding (which includes even ppl who mean well) and scientific and careful breeding iof pedigreed cats that can only be done if one is willing to spend much of their time, money, resources and knowledge on a particular kind if breed. (I am not sure any good breeder can handle more than two types - beyond that, the lines are blurred a kitten mill and a reputable breeder).

The reason people want a purebred isn't always for show. Some breeds have different personalities. So if you like the Siamese personality, you just won't find it in a mixed cat. It isn't only looks, although that is a factor as well. Have you ever seen a Himalayan? I can't even spell it, but almost adopted a 13 y/o himmie or himmie mix on-line because the cat was GORGEOUS!

I am happy with my spayed and neutered moggies. I have 2 adults currently that need to be speutered, it will be done within a month. Though years ago I let my barn cats procreate before spaying them, I've learned my lesson and won't let it happen again. And now I do my part by fostering, and volunteering at a spay/neuter clinic.

I look at each kitten or cat that I foster, and realize that they are considered expendable by our society. If they were at the local pound, they would be in a cage on death row. I am definitely pro-speuter, anti-puppy and kitten mill.

I think it is the PETA folks who promote speuter of all pets. They are too extreme.

Overpopulation of pets? Whose fault is it? Breeders? Or people who have mixed breed cats, that they haven't spayed or neutered?
If people spayed and neutered their mixed breed cats, then there wouldn't be such an overpopulation problem.

Mixed cats all stem from purebreds somewhere along the line... Someone mentioned that only 2% of shelter cats are purebreed, but I wonder how many cats are there that come from a purebreed parent cross.

No, not all breeders are bad, some of them are great people and are very careful with how they manage their animals. Its backyard breeders and mills that give good ones a bad rap.

Definitely not true. There are people posing as breeders that are right now messing with the gene pool and creating minature cats, twisty cats, teacup kitties and more- they are as responsible for the pet overpopulation as those who are not spaying and neutering their backyard variety cats. Anyone can call themselves a breeder, but only ethical breeders should have the right to run catteries and breed lines responsibly.

There are numerous people posting on this very website, whose cat snuck out before being spayed, mated with another cat in their home before being spayed, who don't have money to spay the cat, etc. All of these mixed breed cats are having large numbers of kittens. I imagine that is a bigger prolbem that some breeder creating twisty cats somewhere. Obviously, un-ethical breeders are a problem, but I bet the majority of cats euthanized in shelters, etc, are mixed breed cats that were not spayed or neutered, not twisty cats.

I have 2 cats that are Pedigreed with papers, Simba and SunLee. I would hate to see anyone force quality breeders into spaying and neutering. If they did, I wouldn't have my Bengal or my Siamese cat. I do like specific breeds myself, and although I have seen some beautiful and adorable mixed breeds, that doesn't mean I would really want one. Unfortunately, I did purchase Shane from a Backyard Breeder. As far as I know he's a purebred Siamese, but I have no proof of that I know his mother and father both looked Siamese. That was 9 years ago, and now that I understand what Backyard breeding is all about, I would never do it again. I agree backyard breeders should be stopped, but I don't agree that there should be any way that decent ethical breeders should be stopped. By the way, since I am never going to be a breeder myself, I have ALL of my cats fixed. I remember when I first got Simba, a lot of my friends told me I was crazy for getting him neutered. They felt that I should try to make the money I spent on him back, by breeding him a few times. I purchased him as a "pet", and I was required to get him neutered , but my friends felt I could still breed him. If I would have, I would have had to send him to an unethical breeder, because the breeder stated that if I bought him as a pet, he had to be neutered.

I realize this is slightly , but this has been bugging me while following this thread. Domestic short hairs, moggies, house cats, alley cats, or whatever you want to call them, aren't "mixed breeds". They are the standard. Many, if not most, "breeds" have (been) developed from DSHs. A "mixed breed" would be, for example, 1/2 Maine Coon and 1/2 Persian.
That said, I find nothing wrong with responsible people working to preserve a unique breed of cat, like the Russian Blue, Turkish Angora, etc., or to remove unwanted genetic traits. (Gaye will know what I'm talking about, as one of the (traditional) Siamese we had years ago was cross-eyed with a kink in his tail; his two successors had normal eyes and tails, and I haven't seen the crossed eyes or kinked tails in Siamese for at least two decades). I'm also aware that breeding cats or dogs responsibly isn't lucrative, but more often a money-losing operation.
I personally am in favor of mandatory licensing of both dogs and cats, with all proceeds going to animal welfare, and drastically reduced rates for neutered pets. Where I live, cats aren't licensed, many people don't take neutering seriously, and this lack of "government control" has led to far too many homeless cats.

Wow, where to start on this one. I think most of what needs to be said has been said. But I agree, that truely responsible breeders are not the problem. I can admit, and say I am not proud of the fact I had a few "opssy" litters of my own. My girls didnt get out, and had spay appointments, but I took in a friends cat (btw the friend said he was fixed) and..well he wasnt. fair enough. My girls are fixed, he is fixed (even tho he was supposed to be. going home only a month of staying..that was several months ago). The kittens have found good loving homes, I had all shots done, and everyone S?N BEFORE they left my home. So no more oppsy could happen. four of the kittens have found their forever home here with me and my honey. Two I flew with out to AZ at my own expense..to deliver them to their forever home.

That being said, I have researched and looked for many many years at my chosen breed of purebred cat, Persians. Along the way I took in my beloved moggies, and I wouldnt trade any of them for the world. Loki, came from a horrible breeder in my state, who was going to dump him in the street because she couldnt sell him, because she couldnt be positive if he was sired by her persian purebred, or the local tom because her female got out. I gave her 10bucks and brought him home. hand reared him and fixed him.

I have just now (many years later) purchased the foundation of my cattery. Two girls (a possible third) and one male. Thats it. No more. And at this time no other breeds, I have taken some interest in ragdolls, but will own a pet quality one and stick with my one heavily researched breed.

I am not in this for the money, by any means. I have been a horse handler/breeder for sometime and trust me. There is no money to be made in breeding animals. Even the high dollar sellers will tell you that. Cause the higher the selling price, the higher the overhead it took to get that baby on the ground. Not that lower dollar babies are of lower quality thats just how it is with horses, as in many breeding ventures. I can tell you there are some high dollar Studs out there I wouldnt breed to. Because to me they dont make the Traditonal standard the breed.

I am all for S/N, just like I am for Gelding of not stud quality horses. and keeping not breeding quality mares from the breeding shed as well (mare spaying is possible but not highly done. dangerous) but I am also very much in favour of quality responsible breeders keeping the pedigrees and genetics of breed standard alive and well.

Wether "mixed breed" term is tehcnically correct or not, it is wildly used to indicate a cat of an unknown parentage.
"Do you want a pure bred or a mixed breed cat?" What's the difference? A mixed breed kitten (also known as the domestic shorthair, domestic longhair, or moggie), is usually the result of an unplanned, randomized mating between two cats of unknown heritage. Mixed breed cats and kittens make up the majority of the cat population in North America and are generally acquired from humane organizations or shelters, neighbors, through want ads or in pet stores. The prices on mixed breed kittens range from $0 to $50. They are generally available in a variety of colors and patterns. Each comes with its own personality no matter what color or coat length and so personality is not always predictable. Moreover, the kitten you acquire as a shorthair may actually grow up to be a cat with a medium length coat that needs daily grooming. Of course, one of the pluses of taking a mixed breed kitten home from most shelters is that you are saving a life"
http://www.cfa.org/cbrs-2.html

There's an old joke ... "Want to know how to make a small fortune breeding horses (or cats, or dogs, or ...)? First you start with a large fortune ..."

I'm a "pedigree snob," always have been. My dog is pedigreed show stock (Pekingese) my cats are pedigreed Maine Coons, my last horse was a pedigreed Arabian. Heck, the last budgie (parakeet) I had was from show stock! I like that when I go looking for a pet, I can be reasonably certain what s/he will grow up to look/act like.

I do have a question/remark ... what exactly do y'all mean when you say "registered cattery?" Because if this is what I think is meant, it's really meaningless. I've registered the name "RoseHawke" with CFA ... for no other reason than I thought it would be neat to have the suffix on Narsil's and Mithril's names. I have no intention of ever breeding them, I can't anyway as they were sold without breeding rights, and although I'm thinking about it, knowing myself, it's really iffy that I will ever show them in Premier classes (I can just see the two of them going zing! across a show hall !) Acquiring this "registration" was achieved by filling out a form and sending it to CFA with a check for fifty bucks. The name registration is good for 5 years. That is, unfortunately, a goodly long time for a BYB to go to town .

Cindy

AMEN! LOL in Arabians themselves we use this one "How do you get a million dollars in the Arabian buisness? Start with 2.."

I wouldnt say i am a pedigree snob. But i know what I like and I know what I dont like as far as pedigrees. especially on my Arabians..and i DONT like alot of the new boys. I like the old lines..like fine wine hehe.

as far as CFA heck if i know. I know i am registered with them, AKC and AHA and it doesnt mean nuffin. plenty of people with AHA i know for sure have been busted and suspened..when neglect or bad breeding is found...

and IMO...pedigree doesnt make breeding quality....some people however thinks if yopu have papers you should breed....