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Child Rapist to be Castrated in exchange for lighter sentence....

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 
I was angry when I read this( this is from Louisiana)......I don't think Castration is going to stop a rapist and this is sad that the victims agreed to this, even though I understand why.

08:42 AM CDT on Wednesday, July 13, 2005


Associated Press



COVINGTON -- A man who pleaded guilty to raping two girls has agreed to surgical castration to avoid a life prison sentence.


Yesterday, Keith Raymond Fremin, of Covington, entered the plea to two counts of forcible rape and two counts of molestation involving two sisters, who were eleven and 13 at the time of the attacks in 1999. Fremin was originally indicted on four counts of aggravated rape. Since one of the victims was under 13, the death penalty was possible, but prosecutors were seeking a life prison sentence.


Castration is part of Fremin's plea bargain, which includes a 25-year prison sentence without parole. State District Judge Donald Fendlason says he will revoke the sentence if Fremin does not undergo the procedure by August 18.


The now 17- and 19-year-old victims, who have since moved to the Netherlands, were in court yesterday and agreed to the guilty plea.


Authorities say Fremin was on probation for molesting another girl between January and March 2003 when he was booked with the 1999 rapes.


Doctor Fred Berlin is founder of the Johns Hopkins Sexual Disorders Clinic. He says he's aware of four or five similar cases nationwide. And, while Fremin's request reveals an offender's desire to change, he says neither surgical nor chemical castrations provide instant cures.


Judy Benitez, head of the Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault, says victims should not think that surgical castration will cure an attacker, because rape is more about a desire for dominance than sex. She says the only way to ensure that an offender does not attack again is to remove their access to potential victims.
post #2 of 85
In certain cases, this has been proven to actually be a more volatile alternative than others. When the person is castrated, physically or chemically, they can pose more of a danger when their high sex/dominance drives are still very there but the ability to
"carry through" is gone.
Often frustration and anger and possible violence result.

EEEK...Scary.
post #3 of 85
This is horrible, absolutely horrible.
Rape and sexual assault are about POWER AND CONTROL, not a willy. As long as he has those sick desires, he could rape women with inanimate objects if he can't do it himself. This won't stop him.
He should've been put in the prison's general population and endured rape on a daily basis so he'd have some understanding of what he put his survivors through.
post #4 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
. As long as he has those sick desires, he could rape women with inanimate objects if he can't do it himself. This won't stop him.
Good point!
post #5 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
He should've been put in the prison's general population and endured rape on a daily basis so he'd have some understanding of what he put his survivors through.
post #6 of 85
More than a good point about the fact that a man can rape a woman with things other than his penis. An excellent one.
The feelings aren't gone and the anger and power and sex drive only frustrate him further.
It was men who thought up the castration idea. Sincerely.
Not to bash men here...but this is a really idiotic alternate for therapy or incarceration.
post #7 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes

He should've been put in the prison's general population and endured rape on a daily basis so he'd have some understanding of what he put his survivors through.
However, I don't agree with this kind of terror on any human being.
Its actually more than likely that he has already faced severe sexual abuse in his time before his own crimes.

Thats just my two cents though.
I don't believe in the eye for an eye mentality.
post #8 of 85
I disagree completely. Why do we neuter our male cats? Because their sexual drive makes it impossible for them to be good pets. Neutering calms them down, and they lose their sex drive. Well, the same would happen in people.
And surgical castration is irrversible.
If more rapists could be castrated, it would do everybody a world of good.
post #9 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
This is horrible, absolutely horrible.
Rape and sexual assault are about POWER AND CONTROL, not a willy. As long as he has those sick desires, he could rape women with inanimate objects if he can't do it himself. This won't stop him.
He should've been put in the prison's general population and endured rape on a daily basis so he'd have some understanding of what he put his survivors through.
He will lose his desires once he is castrated.
He will also lose testosterone and that should make him much calmer. Just as neutered male cat is much calmer than un-neutered one.
I think it's a good alternative if we don't have enough prisons to keep them in.
post #10 of 85
Often sex crimes have less to do with sex drive and more to do with anger/dominance and/or previous personal abuse.
We aren't talking about your average human being here, obviously.
These offenders have tremendous anger issues that supercede their sexual needs.
The sexual outlet is just one vehicle they use for degrading and exerting control over women/children.

People are more complicated emotionally than animals.

Hope that clarifies.
post #11 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
Often sex crimes have less to do with sex drive and more to do with anger/dominance.
We aren't talking about your average human being here, obviously.
These offenders have tremendous anger issues that supercede their sexual needs.
The sexual outlet is just one vehicle they use for degrading and exerting control over women/children.

People are more complicated emotionally than animals.

Hope that clarifies.
Personally, I don't believe that theory at all. I definetly think castration would work in most cases.
I guess we have to wait and see how it turns out.
But the guy should be a lot less dangerous than he was prior to castration.
post #12 of 85
I will see if I can dig up some adequate statistics on the subject.

However, I am guessing that you haven't sat across a desk from a violent adult male offender of adult or young women.

You might well change your mind about the dynamics of their personality.

Also, this issue is about much more than if this form of "therapy" is suitable for this one person, which we know that isn't adequate evidence for society at large.
This could set a very dangerous precedent for all of us.
post #13 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
I will see if I can dig up some adequate statistics on the subject.

However, I am guessing that you haven't sat across a desk from a violent adult male offender of adult or young women.

You might well change your mind about the dynamics of their personality.

Also, this issue is about much more than if this form of "therapy" is suitable for this one person, which we know that isn't adequate evidence for society at large.
This could set a very dangerous precedent for all of us.
Since I feel that castrating rapists is a good idea, I am not worried about this starting a prcedent. In fact, I think a good idea would be to do studies on the subject. I beleive European studies showed chemical castration greatly reduced recidivism rates. Well, surgical castration should be even better because it's irreversible.
post #14 of 85
I will repeat what I said earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes

Rape and sexual assault are about POWER AND CONTROL, not a willy. As long as he has those sick desires, he could rape women with inanimate objects if he can't do it himself. This won't stop him.
Rape is ALL about power and control, not a sex drive. Having a willy or not will not change a rapists' desire to exert power and control over others. He'll just find a new way to go about it.
post #15 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
I will repeat what I said earlier:



Rape is ALL about power and control, not a sex drive. Having a willy or not will not change a rapists' desire to exert power and control over others. He'll just find a new way to go about it.
Without any evidence to support that castration of rapists doesn't change recidivism rates, it's just empty words. Why does chemical castration has been shown to reduce recidivism rates in Europe? Frankly, I am not going to say castration doesn't work unless evidence shows otherwise. Now, if studies showed castration doesn't make a difference, it would be another story altogether. Neutering works on animals, makes them calm, and makes them to lose their sexual drive. Stands to reason the same thing would work on people.
post #16 of 85
The fact is he committed a violent crime. He was a repeat offender. Why is there so much concern for finding a way to change him to make him safe enough to return to society. I don't understand it. Why does he deserve to return to society?
Heck, why don't we just cut off the arms of murderers and release them back into society. It sure would be tough for them to kill again at that point right?
post #17 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtle
The fact is he committed a violent crime. He was a repeat offender. Why is there so much concern for finding a way to change him to make him safe enough to return to society. I don't understand it. Why does he deserve to return to society?
Heck, why don't we just cut off the arms of murderers and release them back into society. It sure would be tough for them to kill again at that point right?
As i understand it, we don't have enough money and prison to keep all the criminals in.
I think that's why they are getting paroled and let out. If there is a way to make a rapist safer then it should be done before letting him out. And it sounds like a guy still has to serve a long sentense before being let out, even with castration.
25 years in prison without parole-well, that isn't a walk in a park.
post #18 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
As i understand it, we don't have enough money and prison to keep all the criminals in.
I think that's why they are getting paroled and let out. If there is a way to make a rapist safer then it should be done before letting him out. And it sounds like a guy still has to serve a long sentense before being let out, even with castration.
25 years in prison without parole-well, that isn't a walk in a park.

I know, I posted more out of frustration than anything else. I am so sick of reading these awful stories in the news of children being abducted. It is so out of control.
post #19 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
As i understand it, we don't have enough money and prison to keep all the criminals in.
I think that's why they are getting paroled and let out. If there is a way to make a rapist safer then it should be done before letting him out. And it sounds like a guy still has to serve a long sentense before being let out, even with castration.
25 years in prison without parole-well, that isn't a walk in a park.
To be fair, you are somewhat right though in your points, you are thinking of the most simplistic view...

Let me just explain a bit...

Yes, in certain European studies, and in practice (this has been an ongoing practice in Europe moreso than here), recidivism rates were lowered for the amount of time that sexual offender was MONITORED...

However, there are certain intricate points that are being missed here.

Yes, you are right in general. Lowered testosterone not only reduces sex drive (NOT completely) and anger/aggression (again NOT completely)

However, there are several other points to be concerned about.
We can't just throw our hands up after some work has been done and say
"well, that works for a small percentage of the population...let's do this without another thought"...

1) The offender has to give permission or agree to this treatment. Thus, this is only going to be a very small percentage of offenders that this bill affects.

2)Surgical castration is not that much more drastic on the body than chemical castration is actually. Both are actually reversible. With one, you stop taking the drugs when your parole/probation is up and the other, you can actually increase your testosterone by taking synthetic testosterone. This isn't exactly impossible to procure.
What happens when the offender's "time is up" or he can't be monitored.

3) By precedent, I meant that , as a society, we could come to depend on this "cure" as a panacea of sorts for all sex offenders. I am bothered that without thinking, people say 'Well it seems like it works! Let's do it!'...
This could lull the public into a false sense of security where these offenders are concerned. Its not a magic pill or treatment.

And lastly, as has been mentioned somewhat, this will NOT be an effective solution for all offenders. Castratiom of either kind, while being slightly effective in reducing aggressive drive does not completely.
Highly violent and sadistic offenders do not benefit as other offenders do.
This type of treatment has been shown to be more effective with Preferential offenders (those who molest children and whom are only attracted to children)...as opposed to Situational Offenders (those who also are attracted to adult women and tend to offend when under the influence of drugs/alcohol/stressors).
The studies and evidence reports that it doesn't tend to be effective (or is superflous treatment rather) with Situationals as they aren't true offenders in the sense we know.

So, you see. You bring up some good points..I just don't want to see people making rash judgements without all the information and without looking at the giant picture and all the elements involved.
post #20 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Neutering works on animals, makes them calm, and makes them to lose their sexual drive. Stands to reason the same thing would work on people.
once again, this is not all about sex drive, it is about power and control over another person

example: my parents older dog is spayed... when they brought their new dog home(also spayed), the older dog started humping it... this is a sexual act being done, non-sexually... it is to show dominance over the other animal... nothing to do with sex drive!
post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mferr84
once again, this is not all about sex drive, it is about power and control over another person

example: my parents older dog is spayed... when they brought their new dog home(also spayed), the older dog started humping it... this is a sexual act being done, non-sexually... it is to show dominance over the other animal... nothing to do with sex drive!
My neutered cats don't hump anything. Maybe you just got a weird dog.

As for it being power and control over another person-like I said, I don't buy that. I am sure part of it is power and control, but I believe the main motivation is sexual.
After all, you don't have to rape someone if all you want is power and control. Anyhow, the guy in question agreed to spend 25 years without parole in prison in addition to surgical castration. I would say that's a pretty stiff sentense. It's not like they are getting him out on the street as soon as he gets castrated.
post #22 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
My neutered cats don't hump anything. Maybe you just got a weird dog.

As for it being power and control over another person-like I said, I don't buy that. I am sure part of it is power and control, but I believe the main motivation is sexual.
After all, you don't have to rape someone if all you want is power and control. Anyhow, the guy in question agreed to spend 25 years without parole in prison in addition to surgical castration. I would say that's a pretty stiff sentense.
Along the same line... you don't have to rape someone to relieve sexual frustration. They could take care of that themselves.
post #23 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtle
Along the same line... you don't have to rape someone to relieve sexual frustration. They could take care of that themselves.
I think if that was an equivalently satisfactory method, there wouldn't be 6 billion people on Earth today.
post #24 of 85
my neutered cat humps everything!

nothing is going to stop this guy - rape is about power, nothing to do with sex. This is sickening!
post #25 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwideus
my neutered cat humps everything!

nothing is going to stop this guy - rape is about power, nothing to do with sex. This is sickening!
What exactly is the basis for that statement? Can you provide any proof? Have there been any studies done to support that at all? Or did feminists came up with it without any basis for it, because they were upset (and with good reason) that victims are being blamed for being raped?
Yes, I agree that the way the woman dresses and behaves is not an excuse to rape her, but what would be the proof that rape is not about sex, but all about power and control?
post #26 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
As for it being power and control over another person-like I said, I don't buy that. I am sure part of it is power and control, but I believe the main motivation is sexual.
After all, you don't have to rape someone if all you want is power and control.
That is nothing but a myth, albeit a very widespread one.
I realize this is just a quote from a website to you, but:

MYTH: Sexual assault is a crime of passion and lust.
FACT:Sexual assault is a crime of violence. Assailants seek to dominate, humiliate and punish their victims. (from the website http://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/myths.html).
I will try to find the research on this fact about sexual assault once I'm back at work tomorrow.
post #27 of 85
Eliz- Do you feel that the rapists should be castrated and then be set free?

I just did a search on Google and found a lot of information that discusses rape being for power and control and not for sex.
What about the men who are raped in prison? Isn't that an issue of power? There are guys who have the capability of having consensual sex with women but choose to rape instead... why? They get off on the thrill of it.
post #28 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirtle
Eliz- Do you feel that the rapists should be castrated and then be set free?

I just did a search on Google and found a lot of information that discusses rape being for power and control and not for sex.
What about the men who are raped in prison? Isn't that an issue of power? There are guys who have the capability of having consensual sex with women but choose to rape instead... why? They get off on the thrill of it.
Feminist came up with it, and a lot of people have been repeating it. Doesn't make it the truth in my eyes. As for men that are raped in prison. Sad to say it, but when there are no women available, men would turn to their own kind to have sex.
Yes, some men can have consensual sex, but they choose to rape instead-because they don't want an willing parnter. That is my opinion. Anyhow, I don't understand how can anyone say that castration doesn't work without studies done to support that. Why ignore a potentially excellent method of making rapists safer without even studying it? Chemical castration studies have been done in Europe and they had great results.
post #29 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
That is nothing but a myth, albeit a very widespread one.
I realize this is just a quote from a website to you, but:

MYTH: Sexual assault is a crime of passion and lust.
FACT:Sexual assault is a crime of violence. Assailants seek to dominate, humiliate and punish their victims. (from the website http://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/myths.html).
I will try to find the research on this fact about sexual assault once I'm back at work tomorrow.
There are many theories on rape. The one is about power and control seems to be the most popular one, because feminists didn't want women blamed for being raped if they dressed or behaved provocatively. But while I believe women shouldn't be blamed for being raped, I don't buy the rest.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw00/t...s_of_rape.html
post #30 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizwithcat
Feminist came up with it, and a lot of people have been repeating it. Doesn't make it the truth in my eyes. As for men that are raped in prison. Sad to say it, but when there are no women available, men would turn to their own kind to have sex.
Yes, some men can have consensual sex, but they choose to rape instead-because they don't want an willing parnter. That is my opinion. Anyhow, I don't understand how can anyone say that castration doesn't work without studies done to support that. Why ignore a potentially excellent method of making rapists safer without even studying it? Chemical castration studies have been done in Europe and they had great results.
My point is not that is doesn't work. To be honest, I don't know if it works and I don't care. These men commited terrible crimes and should not be freed just because castration is an option. That is not acceptable to me. They need to be punished. In my opinion being castrated and then living normal lives in every other aspect is just not enough. You made a point about the prison situation. But changes need to be made in other areas, not in releasing violent sex offenders.
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