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post #31 of 45
Although I don't disagree with the idea that trapping is sometimes the most humane thing for an animal, if you are talking about those leg traps I have to disagree with your opinion. When it comes to a leg trap, the animal is in such excruciating pain that it will chew it's leg off in order to escape. Most states have banned this sort of trap and replaced them with more humane ones. The problem is, the old style is still out there being used. I can't imagine a worse death for a critter then to slowly die from blood loss, shock and pain from these traps. I look for a day when all of this archaic torture devices are completely destroyed and replaced with more humane traps. I know that you can't control your husband Debby any more than anyone else can control their mate, if he is using these clamping traps, you might try suggesting to him that there are other ways out there besides leg traps to trap all these coons.

But since I rescue baby coons every year and used to work with a wildlife biologist as well, I have to say, that I believe because we have encroached on wildlife and their territory and driven a lot of the larger prey animals away, now we are paying the price for it in the overpopulation that is now occuring and the fact that the animals are simply trying to survive in larger numbers than nature intended them to reach. If that means they are raiding our food supply and killing our chickens, other means need to be reached to solve the problem than allowing leg traps to still be used.
post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
Gotta say, I'm with MA. I'm not an extremist that has a problem with hunting or trapping but I do have a problem when it's done in away that could be described as torture. You didn't say what kind of traps your husband uses Debby so this is not directed at you. You brought up a good point about trapping and this is just my .02 cents about the subject.
post #33 of 45
I'm sorry if it sounded like I advocate leg traps, I think finding alternatives is part of finding a humane solution.

What about a catch and release program of neutering, like some people do with ferals? Probably too costly and you run the risk of changing the animals' personalities (male aggessive behavior esp. which often serves a purpose beyond reproduction) or accidentally decimating a local population. And it wouldn't actually act as a predator does to keep the other animals healthy by removing the sick

Any other ideas?
post #34 of 45
I just want to add that I do agree with you all on the leg hold traps. I asked him, and he says he has many different kinds of traps, I'm not sure what they all are, but he said that the animals he traps don't suffer anymore than a mouse does in a mousetrap, in otherwords, it dies pretty much instantly. I know he does have a few leg hold traps, and I wish he didn't, but he says if the right size is used, that they don't get caught by their legs, and that he hasn't had one incident this year where a leg has been chewed off.
Also, he sets alot of his traps in water, and way out in areas where there aren't any pets around, and he hasn't caught any feral cats or wild dogs so far, and I hope that never happens!!!

You all had some very good opinions, and it is refreshing to discuss something like this, without anyone being flamed!
post #35 of 45
then I hope he is a responsible trapper and checks those leg traps daily so the animal doesn't suffer longer than it has to.
post #36 of 45
Oh yes...he checks them twice a day, actually!
post #37 of 45
Back to PETA - I try to make a distinction between animal rights and animal welfare. What is very important to me is animal welfare.

I belive that we should do all we can to provide all animals with the best living condition and prevent as much pain and suffering as possible. This means better conditions for farm animals, cutting down on experiments (making sure only those that are truly necessary are carried out) and improving living conditiond for lab animals, improving the life quality of pet animals and feral animals (like taking care of feral cats, making declawing illegal etc) and so on. I believe an amimal's quality of life is important and I want to save them from suffering.

I disagree with PETA because they fight for animals rights rather than animal welfare. Some of the issues they bring up are philosophical and unpractical and I feel that there's still so much to be done for animal welfare that it's a waste of energy.

By the way, I really enjoy the discussion!
post #38 of 45
Thank you, Anne, for making that distinction. I think it's easy for us animal lovers to lose sight of that in our concern over the conditions some animals endure.
post #39 of 45
Just an aside about fur coats....in the words of Andy Capp (Brit cartoon carrier)to his wife Flo: "Think woman;if fur coats are so warm why do cats always sit near a fire?" :tounge2:
post #40 of 45
Hissy, did you tell the PETA girl about your cats and how you rescue wildlife? I wonder what she would think of that?

I looked at the veggie recepies and most look very disgusting! I've tried tofu and I didn't like it. I support PETA in some cases, but I've been raised on meat all my life. I love a juicy steak or a hamburger. And chicken! The only time I sacraficed red meat is during Lent. I really love barbeque ribs. I don't mind people hunting as long as its for food like the Native Americans used to do.
I also like rodeos. I've been to some and I don't see anything wrong with it. And what is wrong with milk or dairy products? You don't kill the cow or goat to get to the milk. Or wool. You don't kill the sheep to get the wool. And eggs? I mean you ara not killing a chick. There are many chicken in the world and their are tons of cows. And did you guys take a look at the part where we can make dogs and cats into vegetarians? I am sorry, but cats are carnivorus! I don't think their stomach could handle it. Maybe a dog, but he needs alot of food. Meat and veggies. Next thing they will probably do is have all the cats, dogs, bears, and other zoo animals become vegetarians. I can see a lion eating grass.
post #41 of 45
Nena, I think part of the problem with dairy products and eggs is the inhumane way some of the animals are treated to get those products.

The chickens who are the egg layers live their entire productive lives in a cage that is too short to stand up in. Literally, all she can do is to sit, eat, and put out eggs. If the chicken is "free range" which means it can go outside and walk around and then come back in when it is time to lay the eggs, many vegetarians don't have a problems with it.

With dairy cattle, one problem is that the boy calves are usually slaughtered for veal, which requires them to be kept in small cages where they can't move so their muscles will be tender. Also, dairy cattle are often fed hormones and antibiotics (and other stuff) to increase production all of which ends up in the milk. Then, what happens to the cows when they are no longer productive will bother some vegetarians.

I could go on......

The main idea is the treatment of the animals. If the animals who produce the milk and eggs are treated cruelly, then why support the people who are being cruel? If they have good lives and are treated well, why not use their products?

However, some who refuse to eat eggs and dairy products do so because they believe it is wrong to "use" or subjugate other critters. So, even if the animals are treated humanely, they will not use their products.
post #42 of 45
Thread Starter 
about the difference being between animal rights and animal welfare. I think most of us here, are proponents of animal welfare. Most of us own at least a cat, and some of us many more, along with various other animals. We all love our animals and do the best we can for them. We don't want any animal to 'suffer'. Animal rights is a whole other can of worms. On the animal advocacy board that I visit, a lot of the members feel that animals should have the same rights as humans.

Not to long ago, someone brought up the topic about cloning pigs for transplants. One of the zealots stated that she would rather die with a clear conscience than accept one. I asked her if she would feel the same if it were her child, mother, father or spouse (not knowing which one of these she had) she said that her parents were dead and she didn't have childern, and that it would be her spouses choice rather or not he took a transplant, but she would be proud of him if he decided not to. This blew me away! I'm sorry, but a pigs life is not equal to mine, or my loved ones, at least not in my world. Not everyone feels that way obviously. And some that say they do may be singing another tune if the situation actually arose. I didn't even respond to her after that, because I can't even grasp that kind of thinking, so it seemed pointless to debate it.

I have to say I've learned alot from the AA board. I'm more aware of some of the cruelties that occur, and I'm always blown away by the 'holier than thou' attitudes.

If any of you want to check it out, here's the address


It's SO interesting, and after reading through it you'll appreciate how nice our little community actually is!
post #43 of 45
AP - I've been to that site before, and you're right, it can blow your mind away! I've never attempted a debate there because I'd be crushed!
post #44 of 45
Thread Starter 

I very rarely jump in the debates, but I couldn't help this time. And I couldn't argue with her. You can't debate 'well I don't believe you really would be proud of your husbands choice to die' I do like to lurk and read. It's a real eye opener.
post #45 of 45
AP, I don't think you'll be seeing me at that site! My blood pressure just skyrockets when I see people like that. It's much simpler for me to completely avoid situations where I would just get myself in trouble!

Chalk me up on the side that completely supports animal welfare but shies away from animal rights.
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