Children's rights - Long rant

Jenn, I agree with you and I'll add to it that society and pop culture is adding to the problem.

Look at the ideal of beauty as presented to us in the media. Women so skinny and underdeveloped that they have the body of a lanky 12 year old.

The clothes that are marketed would make Mother Theresa look like a slut, and they are marketed to younger and younger girls. A friend of mine with a 6 year old daughter recently told me that she can't hardley find shorts for her girl that aren't Daisy Dukes, much less conform to the standard of her school of 3 inches below the fingertips. The clothes made for these young girls are practically made for the pedophiles!

I would also have to agree. I cringe everytime I see a commercial for a local furnature seller that always features dancing pre-teen and younger girls in skimpy outfits, heavily made-up. I almost bought a couch from them at one point, but my fiance reminded me of those awful commercials. I can't understand why children are sexualized and why this is accepted by so many people. Think of those beauty pagents, or websites like childsupermodel, that someone else on this site posted a link to. This has been the subject of many books and many more dissertations I'm sure.

As a pediatrician who has spent some crazy nights in the ER - tho that is not my specialty but when I worked in a smaller area, I was the lone pediatrics person. I have seen more cases of child abuse than I care to count and it seemed to me that even after I reported the abuser - often a parent or family member - I still did not really help. Sure, the cause of the abuse was gone but two situations were the most common outcomes. The abuser was out of the home/away from the child and thu, the famiy was broken up. Now, sure this was a wonderful situation for the child. But inevitably and subconciously, other family members "blamed" the child for this new situation and the child felt guilty for what she did (Mostly, it was "she" - there were some boys too tho. Sexual abuse especially knows no particular gender). Especially of dad or stepdad or mom's bf went to jail, the bond between mom and daughter was irreokably changed. It was anyway of course once she overlooked the abuse but it was just sooo frustrating.

In the 2nd outcome - the child removed from the home - the child lost all that was familiar to her and wondered what she did to deserve hat?

I guess I came to realize there is no happy outcome in a situation like that but those children - whose childhood was stolen from them so callously, violently and criminally - have a tough time after the abuse has been reported and action taken. And their abusers tended to get off pretty easily, sad to say.

I have unfortunately come to the conclusion that we are not a very child friendly society. We claim to be but in the end, we are not as pro child as we pretend to be - and I include all of western civiliation in this. It's worse in some areas than others and not just in terms of legislation.

Many apartments refuse to rent to families or moms with young children. My parents bought a home in Florida for the winter and my mom - a teacher all her professional life - was very sad to discover her neighbourhood, which did have some children, had more seniors and so no money was allocated for a playground and the comments she heard by people her own age were most discouraging to her. My parents became the only seniors or "snowbirds" on their street who even talked to the neighbourhood kids - my mom teaches English to the children of a family who recently immigrated from Costa Rico and always has cookies for the kids across the street whose mom is a single parent with FIVE children! Most of the other neighbours actually complain about the noise the kids make when gthey play

As to the neighbourhood cats, some seniors even tried to kill them!! It all reminds me of Ghandi's observation (think it was he?) that a society must be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable citizens. By that judgement, my parents are well advised to move to a more caring place!

That said, our hospital has several houses we maintain for children with psychological problems or even severe medical problems who need to be in a home setting and not such an instittional one as a hospital yet need 24/7 care. Even a couple neighbours there opposed that! And some of the people in the part of the city where the hospital is located were against our construction of a heliport - they did not like the noise of the helicopter! Do they not like saving lives either - they opted to live in a hospital zone, sighhh

Anyway, that's my rant!!

North America seems obsessed about regulating sex while Europeans are focused on violence. Could the pervasive sexuality stem from the desire by people in authority be it parents or government to convey the message that sex = bad? With the result being that young people growing up and seeking to establish an 'identity' separate from their parents selecting one that they would disapprove? The number of teen pregnancies in the US is quite high despite its regulation on sexuality yet this does not seem to hold true in some of the more permissive European nations.

Why is the focus on heavily made up girls? Yet nothing is on boys? A guy who sleeps around is a stud yet a girl who does the same is a slut. Why is the obsession on the amount of clothes women wear, from wearing too little to wearing too much and covering oneself up.

What happened to judging a person by their personality rather than the wrapping. I know of some people who dress very skimpy and yet they are the nicest and most responsible people you will ever meet. Some even take time out of their busy schedule to volunteer and help out those low income family on their problems. I recall these few gals I knew in college who would compete to wear the shortest skirts/shorts yet in the summer when most people are either taking a vacation or working as an intern in a big corporation, they went to Africa to help build a hospital for people suffering from AIDS.

Last week when they found that poor little girl in Idaho I did a google search trying to find a petition to sign or something demanding something is done with these sicko abusers, but could not. Is anyone aware of a petition.
I do not understand these people and do know if the law was tougher on them , it wouldn't be so easy for these abusers to abuse children. Also as a former psychology student, I learned that most abusers where abused themselves when they were children and this is an endless cycle for many who were abuse and then become the abusers. I do not think counseling is the answer, I do think these sickos should be locked up and never let out.
As parents we do have the responsibility to shelter our kids from this abuse. I get angry at many parents where I live because they seem so non-chalant(sorry about spelling) about there children. I live in a apt. complex that has a nice size backyard area for play. There are always 10-20 kids out there on a nice day and I am the only parent watching the kids. I see little 3 yr olds wandering around and wonder "aren't these parents worried that someone will take their kids?". I was never sexually abused as a child, but am very protective of my kids. My son was not allowed outside by himself until he was 12 yrs old, my daughter is almost 8 and has never been babysat before and I do not allow her in situations that can be dangerous to her. If parents have any doubts about any one , family or not, do not allow them with your child.
I do not work and take care of my child, yes money is tight, but it is better than leaving my daughter alone in a place that can be dangerous to her.

I can only speak for my post, which did focus on girls and how they dress (or rather, what clothes are available to them). My problem isn't with college girls. They can dress however they like, and if they want to wear skimpy outfits that's no skin off my teeth. What I do have a problem with, though, is the fact that the clothing available to girls as young as 4-6 years old is more appropriate for strippers than small children. It seems that kids can't be kids anymore, but have to be presented as little adults with mini-skirts, Daisy Dukes short-shorts, and plunging necklines. Boys don't have the option of a certain look or style being revealing or indicative of (adult's) sexual prowess which is available to them at the same time they should be playing with toy trucks.

The point that man do not have a similarly revealing attire that shows one sexuality is one of my points. Why the different standards, unless perhaps part of society still see women as a sex object or someone who is merely a reproductive tool.

Another point, which I must always make on topics such as this because it really intrigues me is how culture and society influence what is not suppose to be seen. Why the fixation on covering up women's breasts? There is a part of Africa where women can walk around topless but if they show their legs, it is akin to a woman walking around without a top on.

Obviously, such an experiment cannot be carried out but what if a group of people were raised on the belief that they must cover their left ear. Would these people grow up and exclaim "Gasp look at that girl she is revealing so much of her ear lobes!"

Bumpy, you seem to be missing my point. The thread is about children, and how so many children are victimized by pedophiles who get little or no punishment for their crimes. I don't care how much skin a consenting adult shows. I don't care that Western culture has a breast fetish. And I don't care how adults express themselves or their sexuality.

What I do find disturbing is that small girls are being made up as sexual beings at the age of 6 and younger. And then we wonder as a culture why the pedophiles are coming out of the woodwork and there have been so many little girls kidnapped, molested and raped, and many of them killed. We're dressing the girls up to play to pedophelia fantasies and then condemn pedophiles in the same breath! It is certainly not the girls' fault that they are kidnapped et al, any more than it is a rape victim's fault because she wore a mini-skirt. But there is NO REASON for a 6 year old to dress like Britney Spears. Why are we handing our children to these perverts on a platter for them to fantasize about?

Some of the posts suggest that children are being grabbed by these sexual predators because of the way they dress. I have to disagree . Just as a women who dresses skimpy should not be blamed for being raped neither should children. Children who are sexually abused are not abused for what they are wearing but for being easy targets. As caregivers we need to arm our children with the knowledge of who bad people are, and not to let anyone touch them in inappropriate places. I know a few people who were abused as children and they were not abused for dress , because they were poor children who could not afford to dress in fashion.
I do agree that there is something wrong with children dressing like sluts. My daughter is almost 8 and it is hard to find her clothes that fit( she is very tall), I wil not buy her clothes that are too tight, or too revealing. She has a friend the same age, whose mom dresses her in shirts were her belly sticks out. Her mom thinks this is the fashion, the poor girl gets looked at alot. If people stopped buying these clothes there would not be a market for them.

I stated this in my previous post:

You see what happens when the law fails us, and yet we seem unwilling to discuss the formation of a "citizens group" to counsel these naughty boys (and girls) when they avoid punishment due to the technicalities of law.

If it is explained properly, the miscreant will quickly see the wisdom of moving out of the area and never returning, and yes, it now becomes someone else's problem, but perhaps if the matter is explained enough times, and by enough people, the pedophile will get tired of having to move, and will change his ways.

We are too fond of saying, "Why don't "they" do something about this situation," but the fact is, the ephemeral and elusive "they" are hamstrung by petty strictures that will not allow "them" to do their job, so it falls back into the lap of those who are the most affected, the caring and determined parents and others willing to help.

Life doesn't have to be complicated, sometimes simpler is better, and if it works, that's the best of all worlds.

Leonard.

What are the statistics for such crimes? Are they rising or falling in recent years? Also, when you mean people are not getting punished, what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that if a person is charged, he must then be guilty? Or that the punishment for those who are convicted is too low. Or are you perhaps extrapolating from a small number of prominent cases and predicting the general trend for the entire system?

To be sure such crimes are terrible but I seem to sense (and I could be wrong) a tinge of hysteria (for lack of a better term) in your original post. It is somewhat similar to the media's fixation that there is a crime wave on abducted children, when in fact the statistics showed that in recent years such crime is on the decline.

I thought that pedophiles are attracted to children because of their "non-sexual" look.

I know where you are coming from but the query I have is does the solution you suggest help tackle the problem.

Finally, I think this has been examined in a previous thread, forming vigilante groups as Leonard suggests does not solve anything but only create more problems.

PS: The term "your" should be directed at whomever it is relevant since I did not cut and paste and that my reply is not directed at any single post.

Why on earth are the punishments so light for child molestation?? That is one of the worst crimes anyone could commit! The children suffer for life and the molesters should too! Jenn, I also agree with you that we can't keep silent about this. I don't know any contact info for lawmakers outside the US, but for those of us in the US, please write to your congressional representative and ask for tougher sentences for child abusers and molesters.

I think what Vespa Cat and others (including myself, but I am speaking from myself since I only know what I intended!) are saying is that children are highly sexualized in this culture. Molestation is about power, yes, but if you've ever known a molester (and believe me, I have all too well) you will find that they do have a form of sexual attraction to some children. They will comment on budding breasts on an 11 year old. They will comment on short skirts on a ten year old and the firmness of her bottom. They will make statements about what a slut the little girl is and how much she must want to be raped. They like the skimpy outfits. The fact that stores sell thongs for 10 year olds is a problem. Oversexualizing girls not only turns perverts on, but it also pushes girls to be sexual earlier and to grow up too quickly.

I've had enough classes on child abuse because of my BSW to know that what I'm saying has merit to it, but since my books are all packed up and waiting to be moved I can't really provide you with any research that would support what I'm suggesting. Take it at face value if you will. I honestly do not know if these crimes are going up, down, or staying the same. But they exist non-the-less.

I know of two men in my family, one immediate, and one married into, who loved it when little girls wore skimpy outfits.

I'll just jump into the fray

I think all of you have some good questions, but I tend to agree with Bumpy's comments most...We have to remember that we are living in a society where information is now global, at our fingertips, all within seconds.
This wasn't so just that long ago...

We hear more, read more and are bombarded by more horrific details than ever before.

These crimes are also reported much more now than they ever were before, due to simple societal awareness and the decreased stigma of sex offender crimes.

This wasn't something that was "talked about" in the 50's or 60's. This was something that was hushed up and that the family dealt with themselves.

There were just as many sex offenders back then as there are today.
They were fathers, uncles, camp leaders, babysitters, priests, neighbours, etc. and they still are today. (I used the masculine gender here as most convicted sex offenders continue to be 98% male, though many sex offenders are also obviously women as well).

Also, Bumpy makes a good point about the inappropriate dress of sexualized children.

Pedophilia can literally be translated as "the love of (philia) (pedo) children"
Though obviously, the majority of the public does not view this as a positive love, but rather a destructive and negative one.

They don't like adult women or children who are necessarily dressing like adult women.

They like children. They prey on the vulnerable simply because these children are the most accessible...This is how it has always been.

There are also several different kinds of offenders and while some overlap can exist, they are typically very different monsters.

There are hardcore "snatching" pedophiles who will take the greatest amount of risk and take a child off the street. These make up the least amount of the offending population and they are the most rare.

There are the familial offenders. Those who molest or offend against their own children or other relatives or family friends related to them. These can sometimes also be classified in two camps. Some familial offenders never offend against members of their own family but would offend against a step daughter or family friend.
These, for the most part, aren't classic pedophiles. They generally offend under stresses or triggers, believe it or not. They are often having domestic difficulties in their own relationships with wives or girlfriends. They may offend older female children.

Then there are your "milder" (if you will) classifications of offenders. These are the voyeurs, the exposers, and those who are only titillated by pornography itself.
These kinds of offenders generally do go on to upping their offending to a more serious level but some never do...

This is the kind of knowledge we should be armed with.
As parents, caregivers, and protectors of family, neighbours, and friends, we have to take the responsibility on ourselves to be ever watchful of our children, and to insure that without hyper over-reacting, we are sure that they are able to know the difference between good touching and bad touching, what they can do to protect themselves, and that they know that there are adults out there they can trust.

We can't monitor our children's every movement and we have to trust the world around us to know that the majority of humanity aren't abusers or the hurtful ones.
All I am saying is we have to keep a watchful, responsible and involved eye without over-reacting to certain events we hear around us. There is a balance.

I hope that makes some semblance of sense

In a nutshell? Children make bad witnesses

Rapists of adult women often get jail time while offenders of children generally get probation with or without a small amount of jail time.
First time offenders of children (depending on the sex offense) often do not get jail time.

You make some good points about the sexualizing of children.
I agree wholeheartedly that 10 year old girls should not be wearing heels, belly shirts, daisy dukes, etc.
I often find it really funny that when I was young, I was out tooling around the neighbourhood on my bike from sunup to sundown, often as far as 8 blocks away, wearing my bugs bunny sweatshirt and lee jeans...And today, 10 year olds look like they are 22 but can't walk to school on their own!

Society really does have its priorities backwards, it seems


However, Many full grown heterosexual men who are attracted to adult women may find that 12-14 year old in those clothes more appealing than the pedophile would. Now, this doesn't make it any better, mind you, but its the truth. So, I think if we are talking about the sexualizing of young girls, we have to take the whole male/female sexual dynamic into consideration.

I, for one, am glad that my 12 year old likes to dress like a tomboy skater girl than a mini Britney Spears or you can bet we would have alot more arguments than we do.

How about we start talking to our kids about what REAL role models are about in general? I am all for that.

I must also say, please please please tell your kids about good touch/bad touch. This was exactly how I was able to stop the abuse I was experiencing. I was about 8 years old when I first learned about this, but by then it was too late. But the exact day, and I mean exact day we learned about this at school, I said no, ran off, and locked my door. I have a a few friends who pretty much experienced the exact same thing. Good touch/bad touch is necessary and it does save girls and boys from experiencing trauma, or further trauma.

I am not sure if they do have the program everywhere, but I know that in Canada, its part of the regular curriculum in schools....
Sorry to turbo post on this thread, but like others, its a personal and professional issue close to my heart.

Also, I would like to recommend that for those of you who have children, nieces, nephews, etc, please don't encourage them to think of sexuality as inherently a bad thing.
Someone mentioned the high teen pregnancy rate in N. America as opposed to certain European countries, like Sweden's model, for example....
We too often are brought up to think of our genitals or "private parts" as bad, as nudity as "bad", etc...
This is the main difference between the models we are brought up with in North America as opposed to Europe. In many European countries, frontal nudity, public breastfeeding, open sexuality is a wholesome, natural thing.
Too often here, we are programmed to think otherwise..

This is all too often why children have an embarrassing time speaking about sexuality openly, and use stupid, nicknames for their genitals or body parts (like weewee, muffin, etc!) as if they are "taboo" to talk about.. This only further instills this sense that sexuality is ominous, dirty and foreboding.

We then expect these kids to grow and be able to talk about sexual issues with us honestly and openly? to be able to discuss contraception or prevalent sexual issues with their parents, etc???

Just my two or eight cents!

That's part of it, but keep in mind that the majority of sexual abuse cases are not investigated by police -- they are investigated by Family Services workers instead. In the rare communities in which police investigate ALL sex crimes (including those committed by family members) the prosecution rates are significantly higher than in those communities in which case workers are left to do the work of law enforcement. (For example, police will gather semen samples, look for pubic hairs and finger prints, etc...this is not the job of social workers and yet states make it the job of social workers to determine whether a case will be founded against a parent). This is most definitely NOT a knock against social workers -- the most over worked and under paid professionals in our society! I just find it infuriating that a father can rape his daughter and the police turn it over to case workers but if he raped his neighbor's daughter the police would be more likely to do a forensic investigation (but may not unless the media is involved).

For two years I worked at a crime victim treatment center, specializing in child sexual assault, and finally quit because the injustice and mistreatment of the children by "the system" was just too infuriating for me.

What??? That is crazy...I didn't know it worked that way there.

The police are ALWAYS involved in any criminal offence, whether it be sexual or otherwise here in Canada.

The case is not turned over to social services, but rather the police work the prosecution angle and Children's Aid or CFS tackles the family/placement dynamic.

The prosecution and possible subsequent conviction of the offender is a completely different piece of the story than the Child Protective issue relating to the child.

Once, I was working with one of my clients (who was a sex offender) and the child had been questioned by the social worker in front of the parents without police presence! As you can believe, this was a huge horrendous issue unto itself.
I was on the phone for days with police, tracking down records and case files for them.
It was horrible...

I also want to say that CFS workers do have the hardest job on the planet.

There are a lot of good points being made here.

esrgirl, thank you for being brave enough to share that with us. lotsocats, loveysmummy, consumer and ugaimes...very good posts thanks for the links.

The bottom line is that molestation and abuse of women and children has been going on around the world for much longer than the current fashion of dressing little girls up in hooker clothes. Not just in the US, but everywhere in the world. The system isn't working the way it is now, and it's NOT because the cops, doctors, and social workers don't care, it's because we aren't getting rid of the problem.

WE the people have to come together to stop this violence. In my opinion (not humble or nice) CONVICTED child abusers, rapists and pedophiles should receive the death penalty. And not with twenty years of appeals. That would at least save victim #2, 3, and so on...I don't think it will totally rid the world of evil, just cut down on it a bit.

I agree; it is time to start locking away repeat offenders or violent offenders for life! Or death penalty is fine with me, if you can get it to stick!
But I also think the news media needs to quit the continual reporting of every detail of these cases. I can just picture a pedophile watching those programs and using the details to plan the next act! Also the fact that child sexual abuse is a common storyline on TV shows. Not that it should be banned, but they should consider if a pervert is watching, is he getting a vicarious thrill?
I am very sensitive to this issue as I have a daughter who was molested as a baby, before age 3. This does happen, way too often, and it is very damaging to the victims. Esrgirl, I'm glad you were able to stop the abuse! The reason my dd didn't say anything is that the man who did it threatened to harm his wife, my daughter's babysitter. So the baby tried to protect the adult, who did nothing to protect the baby!

As for clothing, of course a certain outfit doesn't make a child a victim. But it teaches the child to view herself as a sexual object very early. My 9 y/o dd knows she can't wear belly shirts, and we often buy boys blue jean shorts because they are cut longer. She still dresses cute, and with some fashion. But when I see black leather for preschoolers, or writing across the backside of kids pants, I just wonder. I for one do not want to draw people's attention to my daughter's butt! Now the 22 y/o is aware of my values, and of course dresses more revealing than I would prefer, but she is old enough to make her own choices. I always wonder when I see a little kid dresses sexy, what do they hope she grows up to be?

I hate how parents let their children dress. Ive noticed something, I could go and see someone I know ( a guy) who is my age. He would be wearing baggy pants and a logo shirt. The same day I could see a four year old boy with his mother, wearing the exact same thing! Now, that is not as bad as what you see little girls wearing! I'm sorry but some of them just look like sl*ts in training. Sometimes the mothers are wearing even worse than the kids!!!!!! I mean, who lets their daughter go outside in shorts so short they are almost just underpants? Not only that, but they wear strapless shirts that end higher than their belly button! I have seen girls dressed like this all the time. And then the parents wonder why the child is this way or that way when they grow up! I mean, your average five year old wont freaking care what clothes the older kids are wearing! God, and dont even get me started on celebrities. Like Britney Spears for example. Did you ever see that one video of hers where she is a school girl and dancing all liek that? I watched NICKELODEON one night on kids choice awards after she got her new hoo-hahs. She was wearing a white, tight shirt and no bra! There were like... kids under ten years old there! Sheesh.. be a sl*t on your own time, go find a biker bar somewhere, dont do it in front of a bunch of kids.

Sorry for the bad language but there is really no other way to say it.

What kind of preschooler wears leather pants????????

I think we have to be a little careful here in determining that adult women or young girls who wear revealing or tight clothing are sl*ts.
This is dangerous, and lends credibility to the idea that women who are victimized were so because of their clothing, when this simply isn't true.
Nor is it true that women who wear revealing clothing are sl*ts.

I almost generally always have cleavage. I like mini-skirts as well.
I like to incorporate my best assets when dressing. For me.

But this is my general taste. And I would like people to be less judgmental when seeing a girl on the street in a revealing top and skirt, or whatever.
I generally don't have a problem with this but can't stand it when I hear other people's snickers and hurtful comments toward another human being.

In that same vein, why are people so curious or judgmental when it comes to others sex lives? I am in a monogamous relationship of almost 3 years. But what do I care if the girl I work across from or stand beside on the bus has an over-active sex life where she dates several men (or women for that matter) per week?

I just never understood that.

My two cents:

Our society does help this situation when you open up any high end fashion magazine and take a look at the models. Come on how many of them are over 18?? 16?? 14??
No wonder people want to emulate them. Or the advertising in some of the storefront windows. But stores will sell what people want to buy.

When I first graduated from college on worked in the public health sector there was a family that the father "deflowered" all his daughters. Two children resulted from these circumstances. Another daughter got pregnant by her high school boyfriend so she wouldn't get pregnant by her father!!! Nothing was done to this man!! He should have been strung up by his you know whats and put away for life.
I don't think we have harsh enough treatment for these types of people.

I think the topic that pertains to this subject is the younger kids. You like a miniskirt and cleavage, but would you dress a little kid the same way? Or would she maybe have tights on under the skirt, or a skort with a short skirt so her underpants don't show? The judgement for how adults should dress and whether or not their sex-lives matter is another subject.

And I don't think little kids being dressed too sexy is the reason they are victimized. I think its the opposite, that "society" (whoever that is) puts out all these revealing clothes for kids because they devalue their innocence. And honestly, it can be hard to find clothes that are appropriate sometimes. I could understand going into stores and finding some revealing clothes, but sometimes that is all there is. That frightens me!

Hi Beckiboo,
I was merely responding to BigOrangeMenace's comment that they were like "little sluts in training".