Two Queens...One house....HELP

barry

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Hey all...I am new to the forums and a very big avid cat lover...
I think they are awesome... (Well except changing that stinky box hahaha)
Anyway...
I have 3 cats in my home...All are roughly the same age...
We have a male Named Fred who is just plain old black...
She used to be named MIDNIGHT until we realized she was a he...
Our plan was to have 3 females....No males...All indoor cats...No spraying...any litters of kittens to worry over...
Well after we got FRED we picked up two more from a free add in the paper...
Persian half breeds...Adorable as can be...And Very irresistible...We ended up taking TWO...They were 6 weeks and someone took the MOTHER that day...all that was left was these two kittens....SO we took both...
We then had 3 cats...Very loving and much fun...The house was a huge playground and they were definitely rowdy and exciting for some time....
Then comes Fred who is older by about 4 weeks...He goes into his "TOM" period I like to call it...Every chance he can he tries to escape outside...
With 4 boys in the house its almost impossible to contain him indoors ALL THE TIME.....He gets out...comes home beat up now and then....The first time he was gone 3 days...I was really worried and afraid I had lost him...Even started driving the roads looking for the remains....;(

He did in fact come back...but with this new vigor to HUMP everything in the house.....
So the two females go into heat...and thereâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s a TOM in the house...
This is a bad mix...
Every time I found them they were always having some sort of CAT ORGY....
No matter how hard I tried...The sounds of their little episodes would literally keep us awake night after night...for about a month straight.....
And even when the two females became pregnant...He still thinks he has to do “The Job" over and over...
I am really close to having him "Teutered"
but funds are just really tight around here with 4 boys under the age of 10
Anyway...

The first female (MISTY) had her kittens...
6 of them...Good mother. No noise...3 1/2 hours labor...Well cared for and good mothering skills....
The kittens are now 5 days old and are starting to see the world with small half opened eyes....and mom is spending most of her awake day in the kennel...
(I put the kittens and mom in a large plastic dog kennel with a blue heavy dark blanket over it...To keep it dark and secluded so she would resist the urge to hide the kittens in the house...And to keep them warm and dark...
I read that somewhere...Just don't remember where...

Anyway...
The Calico (Cali) is about a week away from her due date...And is having major issues with the mom and kittens in the house...She lays in the box and tryâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s to nurse the kittens...NO MILK SACKS YET ;( so for her its just a dry run.
She also has this weird bond with Mistyâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s kittens that gets borderline psycho.
Misty is a good mother and lets Cali in the box...Lets her be a part and doesn't argue. They are blood sisters and they have been together since birth...
But Cali has that Natural CALICO spirit....You know the “I hate people unless itâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s my choice and my time" attitude... She doesn't want the kittens anywhere near where we can find them...She keeps stealing them and moving them to hard to reach dark spaces in the house...Usually trying to mother them without Misty around...
She waits till Misty leaves the box to eat...and takes the kittens to one of her undisclosed hiding locations...
This is getting tiresome for us...She isn't able to care for them properly yet as her Milk isn't in...And they aren't her kittens to begin with...
Misty and her today are starting to have issues with each other over the kittens...But Misty continues to let her in the box....
Is this behavior normal?
What can I do to curb it...?
Locking Cali in a closed room overnight only makes her cry loudly all night so that we can't sleep...
She walks the house constantly making that crying meow anytime sheâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s not in the box...
I hope this gets better when her OWN kittens come. But I worry about what will happen when they are HERS...
Will she be hiding them MORE?
So many questions...
Sorry for the long post...
And if its all misspelled and not properly punctuated...Sorry it's early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet...
Tell me please what you would do if this were your situation....
Thanks so much
Barry
 

tnr1

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Barry....please have your male neutered because a female can get pregnant again very quickly after giving birth. You should have the male separated and not allow him outdoors until such a time as he can be fixed. He should not be allowed to mate outdoors as you do not know whether he will get into fights with other cats and contract FIV or FELV...and worse..if he contracts it and mates with your females...they will get it as well...and possibly the kittens. Not a good situation at all.

Katie



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Cleveland OH
216-651-7142
Pets and ferals.
City of Cleveland Kennel
2690 West 7th Street
Cleveland, OH 44113
216-664-2759 clinic
216-664-3069 main
Low cost spay/neuter clinic for pets of Cleveland residents.

Pet Guards Shelter
Cuyahoga Falls, OH 44223
330-920-1522

Planned Pethood Inc.
5265 Berkey Southern Road
Whitehouse, OH 43571
419-877-3499

United Humanitarians
Toledo, OH
419-475-1977

MARX (Minimizing Animal Reproduction without Extremes)
Middletown OH
513-465-3295
Mobile s/n clinic for feral and pet cats in Middletown.

CAT-SNIP Program
Scratching Post
6958 Plainfield Road
Silverton, OH 45236
513-984-6369

Spay/Neuter Clinic
Columbus OH
614-367-9933

Humane Society & Spay Neuter
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Delaware, OH 43015
614-369-7387

Cat Welfare Association
736 Wetmore Road
Columbus, OH 43214
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Low cost spay/neuter for pets of low income people.

Spay Ohio
Northwest Columbus OH
614-457-5772


Advocates for Animals Inc Marietta OH
740-3730017


SICSA
Dayton, OH
937-294-6505
Low cost spay/neuter for pets of low income people.

Humane Society of Preble County
722 South Franklin Street Eaton OH 45320
937-787-4408 Thora Smith for appointments and info
Brings a mobile unit (NOMAD) to the area every month for low cost s/n of cats.
 

elizwithcat

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I agree with TNR1. He goes out and likely mates with cats there. He also gets into fights. The Felv and FIV are transmitted that way. If the cats don't already have it, they will get it sooner or later. There are also other viruses he can bring in to kill them all. The only solution is spay and neuter.
 
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barry

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My intent is to get him Neutered ASAP..that was never a question...I called some local veternarians on friday...One of them was extremly rude to me...I am sure she said a fww things some of you WOULD LOVE to say...
Called me irresponsible and told me that people like me are the reason so many cats die every year. That If I was Really the cat lover I say I am..I would have neutered Fred when I found out he was a boy....
Sadly she was the cheapest place I called too...;(

In reality..She was sort of right...This is a Backyard pregnancy..I am not a breeder...Don't want to be...Don't intend to sell these kittens. I will pay for their first shots. And I would rather give these kittens to the local angels for animals shelter ( NO KILL SHELTER ) before I will give them to irresponsible parents...At least with Angels for animals they spay and neuter them going out....and check references and such...Even calling your vet to check if you have other pets and care for them....

I need to do my part in ending the viscous cycle that I started with my two females.
And she was also right...I should have neutered him when I realized he was male....
Simply thinking I could keep them apart wasn't enough....
Before the public thrashings begin.....
I KNOW

Really I do and I understand...
I just need help with the mothers for now...The mistake is done...
Sorry...Guess I am just tired of hearing about it from people who think I may be some trashy lowlife contributing to the cat problems in the world....
Not really something any of you said...
Just when both comments were about neutering the male...It rang a familiar bell with the butt chewing I got over the phone from the vet friday....
Man that lady really had me angry...can you tell? hahahaha
Thanks for your advice on the male though....
I still need help with the queens...

Oh and whoever said seperate him....thats been done since the kittens were born....He has been locked to a part of the house where he can't get out...or come in contact with eithier mother or the kittens....
I thought at that time it was best....
Since he has been out a few times and has not had OUTDOOR shots yet....I wanted to make sure he would not give anyone else a disease...
 

elizwithcat

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I didn't find nothing out of the ordinary in what you described your female cats do. I would say that is probably a normal behavior as one cat had the kittens and the other didn't. When cats have kittens, they are very protective of them and might beat other cats or dogs who they precieve as a treat to the kittens. The other cat is expecting kittens but doesn't have any yet so she probably is jealuos or thinks that other mother cat stole her own kittens. I would just keep them apart for the time being, if that is possible.
 

tnr1

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Barry.....don't get me wrong...I don't think you are a lowlife....I am just very concerned for the health and well being of your male and your females and the kittens. I think it is good you came to this message board so that we can assist you...however, I do also think that until such a time as you can have your male neutered...it is best to keep him in an interior room where he cannot get access outdoors or to your females. It is just safer for all that way. (I see you are now doing that which is a good thing).

As far as finding resources or an inexpensive vet....I would certainly see if one of the low cost options I listed is close enough that you can contact them....I believe one if them is a mobile clinic so you can call to see if and when they will be in your area.

Katie
 
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barry

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See edit to my second post...sorry...didn't want to be a post piggy...As a member of many other forums....I know how nice it is to learn to use the edit button and not double post....
 

hissy

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No one thinks you are a lowlife. That is not what we are about. Sometimes things are said in threads for educational reasons, not just for the original poster, but also for anyone lurking that might be in your situation. We had no way of knowing you had already been dumped on by others about this unfortunate occurrence and it is good that you know that your male should be neutered, and your females fixed.

You should not allow your one cat to have access to these kittens. Leave them with their natural mom, and shut the other cat out of the room. It will cause all sorts of problems if you do not do this, and if your one cat hollers to be with the kittens, park your vacuum cleaner outside the closed room (turned on and unplugged) when she starts to holler, plug in the vacuum one time for just a second- guarantee she won't be back.

Keep mom in her own room with her own kittens and keep fred and all other cats out of that room as well.

You can go to www.meowhoo.com look under health and then spay and neuter resources to find plenty of places that will help you secure low-cost spay and neuter. Honestly, it is cheaper is to get all your cats fixed than it is to handle the kitten's needs as they grow up into adoption age-


Good luck!
 
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barry

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Okay as said before...Fred is seperated...But to remove the unbirthed queen...THE NOISE IS UNBEARABLE...she crys so loudly to be near the kittens....
I tried seperating them...and can not take the crying...it breaks my heart....

What to do when she has hers?
She looks plenty large and my best guess is 4 or 5 kittens....
But its a guess...
that would make 10 or so newborns....and two mothers....
can they mix and mingle?
what is normal here...
the unbirthed mother is due middle of the coming week...

Also I guess im sorry I vented.....I have heard so much negativity over my situation... I guess it's why I resorted to coming here instead...
I wish money wasn't the issue...But we had a house fire that destroyed everything and burned my son a couple years back...
Rebuilding has been hard....and really hard on the finances.

If you want to see a pic of the kittens...Click here...
http://home.woh.rr.com/barrysnider/kittens.jpg
A pic of Cali trying to mother Mistys kittens AGAIN click here..
http://home.woh.rr.com/barrysnider/twomommys.jpg
 

hissy

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Please keep the two queens separated- and don't let them have access to each others kittens until the kittens have grown up and are on solid food and running around. If she screams let her, use the vaccum trick, buy earplugs. She will soon drop her litter and be fully occupied anyway-
 
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barry

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Originally Posted by hissy

Please keep the two queens separated- and don't let them have access to each others kittens until the kittens have grown up and are on solid food and running around. If she screams let her, use the vaccum trick, buy earplugs. She will soon drop her litter and be fully occupied anyway-
Can someone tell me WHY to seperate them...So I better understand?
I am willing to take smart advice...But I love to be able to understand why at the same time
 

gayef

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The reason to separate them is more for health/safety reasons than anything else ... if the non-Mother to the kittens is attempting to move them constantly then the risk is there for them to be hurt or moved toa place that isn't safe for them. Also, she might not have milk yet and they won't get the nutrition they require.

It is best not to let the babies try to nurse from the non-Mother as her own kittens will require that first milk (colostrum) that comes down when she delivers. If she is stealing the other queen's kittens and attempting to nurse them, then they are getting the natural immunity and other goodies from her that her own kittens will need when they are born.

In cattery situations where there are multiple queens, birthing or queening cages are normally employed to assist in keeping 1) the rightful mother with the rightful kittens and 2) kittens safe from Mom moving them to inappropriate or unsafe places.
 

momofmany

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In a feral colony, queens that give birth near the same time often share the responsibilities of raising the young, including cross nursing. Your Cali is pregnant and the maternal drive is strong in her right now. If she is moving the kittens, they are not getting the proper nutrician from their nursing mom.

Once Cali has hers, if she continues to try to nurse her sister's and her own litter, she will not have enough nipples to go around and some of the litter will become undernourished and could die. If you allow them to remain together, you have a much bigger job to ensure that 1) the sisters continue to get along and 2) the kittens are getting enough nourishment.

As far as adopting to a no kill shelter: I volunteer at one and we have received over 80 kittens in the last few weeks and not a single one is from a home litter - those are always last priority to no-kill groups as there are too many homeless litters in the world. It's a matter of space and priority. Suggest that you offer to foster them until they are adopted out. Doubtful that you will get them into the program otherwise.

I'm glad you are getting the male neutered - you have just found out the hard why that it is cheaper to neuter one cat than to raise 2 litters.
 
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barry

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Thank you for the well thought answers....
I sound nutty cause I'm up to my ears in kittys....
They are all so cute.....
Thanks for the advice about the shelter...
What tips can you offer for screening would be parents to these kittens?
If I am to adopt them out...I wan't good parents...Not just 'WE MIGHT WANT A KITTEN" types...
The lady we got ours from...Has been by to visit them twice...To ensure we have a safe loving home and that the cats adjusted well to my children...
I must say they are really resiliant to the kids constant attention...And besides Cali who has that CALICO attitude....All seem to enjoy more then they can get...
I was thinking of keeping just one female from the litters..
4 cats in this house isnt so bad to us...we have multiple self cleaning litter boxes and food bowls...
And we keep up after them well...
That would be one cat for each child to call THIERS...even though technically We feed them and care for them...
I had a dog when I was a child...My family pet was treasured and honored....Lived to be 17....
I have a dog now thats 15 and has been with me my entire adult life....
I know how important it is to have a loving compainion from the FUR world...
Big animal lover I guess...
But I tell ya...Never before was I thrown so off guard as I was when we found we had an explosive mixture to mating in the house...
What a mess this is...
P.S. My father offered to castrate the male with some fancy ruber band used on goats....I laughed him off and said HELL NO.....what a silly dad he is sometimes...
But then he dislikes cats....
 

tnr1

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There is a really good PDF called "How to find homes for homeless pets"..you can find it on my rehome page. It gives tips on how to place ads and has a sample contract you can use:

http://www.natewood.net/Rehome.html

Also...make sure you charge a fee for the kittens. You can call it the "spaying the momma" fee.

Katie
 

bigorangemenace

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Unless you know the people really well, you do not want to give them free, because people from animal testing labs, breeders, and all sorts of other bad people can try to get a kitten. Hey, maybe you should start and put a small ad in the paper when your first queen's kittens are about three weeks.... call around to your friends and to your relatives, this will get homes for at least one maybe more kittens.... not to be a blah blah blah about the spaying/neutering but I am just reminding you that cats can get outside and get pregnant
Once your females go into heat again they will be all like "OMG LET ME OUTSDIE THE HOUSE I NEED IT BADLY " O_O heh... I would suggest not settling on a certain sex to keep, but just keep whichever kitten you like best
and you arent letting the children play with the kittens right??? They shouldnt play with them until they are about three weeks or so.. and then still only the older ones..

hm... I am not sure what else you could do, though I know there are many more things.
(i just dont remember them at the moment )

but if nothing else a shelter seeems good (as a last resort)

my girl isnt spayed either
But she is really small and I was worried about her getting surgery. Besides that I thought I might have a litter of kittens from her but I decided it would be too dangerous for her because she is so small.. once I can get the money she will be spayed too... but I dont ahve the problem with stray toms, and ELliot has been neutered for two and a half years.
ENjoy your kittens!!! I would go estatic with a potential of 10 fuzzy squishy little kittens to play with!!
 

booktigger

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Please please please get your females spayed once the kittens have been weaned, i recently lost a female to mammary cancer as she had never been spayed, and that isnt the only nasty illness they can get through not being spayed. Just because they are going to be indoor only, doesnt mean they shouldnt be done (incidentally, unspayed males are at a high risk of testicular cancer too).

Enjoy the kittens, hope you can find good homes for all of them, and just sorry you had to find out the hard way why unneutered males and females shouldnt mix!!
 

hissy

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Your dad is talking about a barbaric practice that is still in use today. Farmers use it all the time. Hopefully he was kidding about his castration method.
 

tnr1

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my girl isnt spayed either But she is really small and I was worried about her getting surgery. Besides that I thought I might have a litter of kittens from her but I decided it would be too dangerous for her because she is so small.. once I can get the money she will be spayed too... but I dont ahve the problem with stray toms, and ELliot has been neutered for two and a half years. ENjoy your kittens!!! I would go estatic with a potential of 10 fuzzy squishy little kittens to play with!!
Definately have your cat spayed...it is healthier for her. If you want to experience a litter...talk to your local rescue group/shelter. Rescues and shelters desperately need fosters for pregnant and nursing cats right now.

Katie
 
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