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post #31 of 49
America isn't as dangerous as the media makes it out to be. First off, our media in this country ONLY focuses on the negative and never anything good. For instance and a little off topic here, as an exotic cat onwer, there is never any good news reported about people who own exotic animals. The majority of exoctic animal owners are responsible caring people who take great care of their animals, better than most people who own domestics. But, if there is just ONE bad incident, the media gets all over this and makes ALL exotic animal owners look bad. So, the same goes for crime. The media loves showing crime and disaster. Just look at the coverage of the war in Iraq. They made it a nightly entertainment event. When comparing the crime in America with other countries, you do have to look at the size of America when compared to other countries, like Australia. The large number of crimes by gun may seem like a lot, but when compared to the size of this country, the vast number of cities and the amount of people, that number isn't as large as it seems. America is a very large country with thousands and thousands of cities. I live in an area where people can still leave their doors unlocked or walk the streets without worry. Another thing to consider is the goverment. How many crimes are allowed to be reported in Australia as compared to America? Since America lives in a free society (relatively speaking, since I see my rights being taken away all the time...off topic again sorry) our media is able to report these crimes since it is public record. In other countries, this may not be the case, so things may be covered up a bit.
post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandybear
That is fair enough and you do have proof so why does America have more deaths? serial killers and whenever i see American news someone has been murdered, i hardly ever see that here

i don't want America to be dangerous, i want to come over for a holiday and see vegas heheh, i was just curious especially after that movie, i do apolagise if i have it all wrong, sometimes it is easy to believe what we hear when we don't know the truth.



thankyou



love,

felicia
Sorry for the delay in responding...had a lightning storm that took out the internet connection here...

I would say that we have more deaths, more serial killers(?), etc simply because we have 14 times more people in this country. Raw numbers aren't generally a best choice for comparison...especially in a case where there is a drastic difference between these two countries. That's why I went to percentages. So while we may have more crimes committed, statistically our crime rate is lower than that of Australia.

The media here does indeed seem quite fixiated with negatitivity, rarely talking about anything but that. It is rare that you see a story on the news about how well things are working out, instead all you see is scandals/violent crimes/failures....negativity. I suppose reporting positive things got boring...afterall, what's so spectactular about something working out without issue?

I will give Moore credit for at least trying to spotlight this interesting quirk of the media....but remember, Moore is just another facet of the media.

There's nothing better than making a judgment for yourself, so the idea of coming over and visiting is really a great idea. The only thing I would caution/reccomend is that you find someone you know in the area and have them show you around all the good parts of town. This way you enjoy your time here rather than feeling completely lost

Come visit the USA it's really a nice, friendly country...albiet biased towards our way of life, but rightfully so. I would expect similar from Australia.

Spotz
post #33 of 49
I don't think it's that we have more interesting serial killers- heck you guys had that Paul Denyar guy, he murdered kittens and women! You guys even had a pair of gay serial killers- that definitely doesn't fit the mould. They killed young women. Maybe Australian media just doesn't focus as much on the negative stuff, or maybe I read too much crimelibrary.com!

You should definitely visit Vegas. My mom loved it and she doesn't gamble. We're going next summer for a belated honeymoon. The area is beautiful. Make sure you check out the Grand Canyon! The Southwest is unbelievably beautiful, and very inexpensive as far as super nice hotel rooms go. While you're in the area, visit Arizona or New Mexico!
post #34 of 49
We also have to remember that with the gun laws in place in the US, its more likely that a fight may turn into something fatal and thus, there may be more reported murders than say Domestic assaults, common assaults etc..

In Canada, for example, a guy's got a knife..You could run.
You can't outrun a gun.

There are literally almost zero deaths attributed to guns in Canada, with the exception of drunk hunters in the woods.

Illegal guns don't exist on the same level as they do in the US compared with say, Canada, Australia, England..
post #35 of 49
I'm just really happy to live in Canada. I often don't lock my doors at night and I can walk down the street in downtown Toronto any time of the day or night and feel safe.

When my daughter goes night-clubbing in downtown Toronto, I don't have to stay up and worry myself sick.
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite
I'm just really happy to live in Canada. I often don't lock my doors at night and I can walk down the street in downtown Toronto any time of the day or night and feel safe.

When my daughter goes night-clubbing in downtown Toronto, I don't have to stay up and worry myself sick.
That's what Germany was like prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain. Unfortunately, we now get a lot of robberies and burglaries perpetrated by organized bands from Eastern Europe, and youth crime is really on the rise, probably because of the high unemployment rate, which is particularly bad among those who leave school with just an "intermediate level" certificate.
post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite
I'm just really happy to live in Canada. I often don't lock my doors at night and I can walk down the street in downtown Toronto any time of the day or night and feel safe.

When my daughter goes night-clubbing in downtown Toronto, I don't have to stay up and worry myself sick.
When I can't sleep and feel like getting outside, I can walk downtown from my apartment, and feel completely safe. And when I lock my doors it's because I'm retiring for the evening, but even then sometimes I forget. And this is a city of MILLIONS.
post #38 of 49
I notice that education was not mentioned at all. I hear and read news articles about the uneveness of the quality of education in the US. This I think can correlate to the crime rate and the type of crime committed and who committs the crime.

Where I live I don't worry to much about unlocked doors in my house/garage etc...
But I know that there are gangs moving into the State, there are meth labs. The criminal justice system needs improvement!!
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandybear
Every year in America over 11,000 people die from guns, in Australia there are only sixty or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotz
Statistically speaking, the United States is somewhere along the lines of 14.5 times more populated than Australia, so the raw number of crimes would theoretically be 14x greater to be considered comparably safe.
Okay, lets do some basic math.

Population of Austrailia - 21,000,000 (21 million)
Population of America - 300,000,000 (300 million)

Shooting death is Australia - 60 (or .00028%)
Shooting deaths in America - 11,000 (or .0037%)

For Australia to have the same number of people killed by guns, measured by percentages vs. population, it would not be 60. It would need to be: 777 deaths. In other words, the USA has about 14 times more homocides by guns than Australia.

So while your numbers are interesting Spotz, they don't seem to hold true.

By the way, if we're just talking death by guns and it includes accident and suicide, you can more than double the 11,000 number. All deaths caused by the discharge of a firearm in 2003 were, in total, about 29,000 (.01%).
(http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_15.pdf) Just FYI, that number in Australia is about 480 (.0023%) -- that number would need to be about 2,100 to be equal in percentage to the USA.
post #40 of 49
To be truthful.. I really think it comes from the fact that America is a mixed pot.. I mean.. back during the days of Hitler... the jewish people and the germans were at war, they could not live together.. something like that would be a sentence of death...

and yet here today we have jewish people marrying germans, and other such stuff (not saying that is bad of course!!!)

But.. what really is my point I guess.. is the jewish people and the germans wouldnt move in together and just get along.. there would be conflicts!!!

I think that the problems we have arise from the fact taht there are so many cultures here, that we clash in our beliefs and such.. it would be like if the borders in europe dissapeared, and everyone was allowed to meld together.. they wouldnt like it! wars would start!

Basically what we have here is a small yet large civil war going on.. and no one really even realizes it.

Hm.. think about it in a pet point of view...

put each animal in a seperate cage (two mice, two cats, two dogs, two birds, two bears) and they will all be fine.. the mice will get along together, the cats will, and the dogs will.. sometimes haveing disputes between them but only natural ones...

then take them and put them all together in one large cage...

also, let us assume (because not everyone in america hates each other and wants to fight) that one of the mice LOVES cats and dogs and birds and bears.. but one mouse only prefers the company of mice!!! and so on with each other animal...

the more peaceful animals will not want to fight.. but the ones who do, will end up either exterminating the peaceful ones, or the peaceful ones will turn violent in order to survive...

in the end, when all the peaceful ones have been converted or killed, each animal will turn upon the other....

most likely the bear would be the only one to survive (the bear does not symbolize any certain race)

so if you didnt get what I was talking about before.. maybe the animals put it a bit in perspective what I was saying..
post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
America really isn't unsafe in the vast majority of areas.
Well said! And I'm not even American

I'd say this is true for most countries in the world. In every country there are probably areas that are safe and there other areas that are probably best avoided because of known crime problems.

IMO the media has a HUGE role to play in people's misperceptions of the amount of crime in a place.

I can assure you that even places portrayed by the media as dangerous and crime-ridden also have a lot to offer....

I lived for the first 25 years of my life in a place called Belfast in Northern Ireland. Now how many of you have heard of that place for all the WRONG reasons?

I encourage you to go there, see it for yourself and make up your own mind about whether or not it's a dangerous place. Likewise for America.
post #42 of 49
BOM, I LOVE your analogies, and I think they will stand the test of logic, as well as common sense.

What no one has mentioned are the demographics of crime in the US, without which, figures are TOTALLY meaningless.

As an illustration, "1,000 persons were asked the importance of snowmobiles, and % 98.7 said they were useless".

In another survey, the same question was put to the same number of persons and the answer was % 2.4 said they were useless.

In survey No. 1, the question was asked on the island of Hilo of natives and in survey #2, the same question was put to the residents of Baraboo, Wisconsin, illustrating the importance, nay, NECESSITY of identifying the demographics of respondents to surveys or demographics of data used to reach conclusions.

The fact is, A SUBSTANTIAL number of deaths in the US are of gang members killing OTHER gang members, and without attempting to appear callous, I would like to say, that suits me just fine and good riddance, and I would support the federal funding of more guns for gangs in order to see the early demise of ALL of them.

The above was not totally tongue-in-cheek, but it makes the point of how important it is to identify your constituency when asking questions, and when aberrant data is isolated from conclusions, the conclusions are often radically different from what they first appeared to be.

You sell more ice in Miami than in Nome.

Leonard
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy-DHH
Okay, lets do some basic math.

Population of Austrailia - 21,000,000 (21 million)
Population of America - 300,000,000 (300 million)

Shooting death is Australia - 60 (or .00028%)
Shooting deaths in America - 11,000 (or .0037%)

For Australia to have the same number of people killed by guns, measured by percentages vs. population, it would not be 60. It would need to be: 777 deaths. In other words, the USA has about 14 times more homocides by guns than Australia.
You are absolutely correct...regarding guns..However, I was not looking at specific cause of death (or of crime). Guns are only one aspect of the whole picture.

It would serve to reason that since the USA still allows gun ownership on a very broad spectrum that Gun related deaths would be significantly higher. The data supports that theory.

However, when you step back and look at the crime rates as a whole, as reported by their respective countries, you notice a quite different trend. The overal rate of crime in the US is significantly LOWER than in Australia. Even more interesting though, the Crime rate in the USA continues to drop, while in Australia it's been increasing constantly for quite a few years now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Amy-DHH[/b]] So while your numbers are interesting Spotz, they don't seem to hold true.
My original post is still accurate, as I focused on crime as a whole, not only gun related deaths. Look at the big picture, and the USA is a comparatively safe country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Amy-DHH[/b]]By the way, if we're just talking death by guns and it includes accident and suicide, you can more than double the 11,000 number. All deaths caused by the discharge of a firearm in 2003 were, in total, about 29,000 (.01%).
(http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_15.pdf) Just FYI, that number in Australia is about 480 (.0023%) -- that number would need to be about 2,100 to be equal in percentage to the USA.
Again, if I were just talking death by gun... But you do make a very interesting point here, do you see a pattern? In the USA, where guns are everywhere, 3 out of every 5 firearm deaths are Self-Inflicted. Americans are more likely to Kill themselves with a gun, than to be killed by another person with a gun.

Strangely though, Americans are still more likely to kill themselves by falling accidentally, than they are to kill themselves with a gun. So statistically speaking, falls are more lethal than guns. http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Well I've wandered a bit off topic, the gun safety discussion is a great one, but probably should be explored much more in-depth in it's own thread, lest this one get hijacked any farther. You made a good point, but I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand, the overall safety of a Country. To me, the crime rate is a much better indicator.

Spotz
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwin

What no one has mentioned are the demographics of crime in the US, without which, figures are TOTALLY meaningless.

Leonard
As Requested

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/law.pdf

Wish I had similar for Australia [finding freely available stats is relatively hard]

Spotz
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigOrangeMenace
To be truthful.. I really think it comes from the fact that America is a mixed pot.. I mean.. back during the days of Hitler... the jewish people and the germans were at war, they could not live together.. something like that would be a sentence of death...

and yet here today we have jewish people marrying germans, and other such stuff (not saying that is bad of course!!!)

But.. what really is my point I guess.. is the jewish people and the germans wouldnt move in together and just get along.. there would be conflicts!!!

I think that the problems we have arise from the fact taht there are so many cultures here, that we clash in our beliefs and such.. it would be like if the borders in europe dissapeared, and everyone was allowed to meld together.. they wouldnt like it! wars would start!

Basically what we have here is a small yet large civil war going on.. and no one really even realizes it.

Hm.. think about it in a pet point of view...

put each animal in a seperate cage (two mice, two cats, two dogs, two birds, two bears) and they will all be fine.. the mice will get along together, the cats will, and the dogs will.. sometimes haveing disputes between them but only natural ones...

then take them and put them all together in one large cage...

also, let us assume (because not everyone in america hates each other and wants to fight) that one of the mice LOVES cats and dogs and birds and bears.. but one mouse only prefers the company of mice!!! and so on with each other animal...

the more peaceful animals will not want to fight.. but the ones who do, will end up either exterminating the peaceful ones, or the peaceful ones will turn violent in order to survive...

in the end, when all the peaceful ones have been converted or killed, each animal will turn upon the other....

most likely the bear would be the only one to survive (the bear does not symbolize any certain race)

so if you didnt get what I was talking about before.. maybe the animals put it a bit in perspective what I was saying..
But Canada and Australia are also nations of immigrants, and aren't known as hotbeds of crime. The city I work in has 22% immigrants, tendency rising, and the second-lowest crime rate of all major cities in Germany.

The borders in most of Europe have disappeared, thanks to the EU's Schengen Agreement (which Switzerland just adopted last week), and it doesn't appear as if any wars are in the offing.
post #46 of 49
Big Orange Menace - just a clarification on the example you gave about the Jews and Germans. The Jews who lived in Germany, and had lived there for many years before World War 2 ever started, considered themselves Germans who happened to be Jewish. Though unfortunately there was some anti-semitism even before the war began, in general, German Jews were accepted, productive members of German society. There was no war between German-Jews and non-Jewish Germans. Rather, in the years leading up to WW 2, there was repression, deprivation of civil rights, and physical violence used against those Germans who were Jewish. The "Jewish people" were not a group who were at war with Germany. The German-Jews were citizens of Germany who were systematically ostracized, deported (if they were lucky), and put to death by a fanatical, lunatic government.
post #47 of 49
O_O I was trying to give an example of two groups of people who didnt get along in the past..... I forgot they had lived together before hitler...

so yeah O_O but the point gets across..

the truth is.. that america really has only begun to start being civilized in the last 20 years or so.. sure. america was disccovered in 1492.. and people settled after that.. but we really have only become aware of our problems a short time ago...

countries like england, australia, germany, spain.. etc.. have had basicaly defined borders for many many years...

what I mean is that the whole cultures have had alot more time to develop than we have...

in the 60's, we were still getting through racial inequality, while england and other countries had outlawed it decades before!!!

Basically what I think america needs is more TIME!! We need to keep evolving... sure the other countries have disputes and such, but their crime rates arent as high...

again for a pet anology: It is like introducing a new pet to an old.. at first they will hiss (or bark) and fight.. but if you introduce them the right way, eventually they will become friends (though they may still have a spat every once in a while ) I say.. its a sad fact.. but give it a 100 or so years and I think we will be doing alot better..

if we havent blown ourselves up by then.. *sigh*
post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigOrangeMenace
O_O I was trying to give an example of two groups of people who didnt get along in the past..... I forgot they had lived together before hitler...

so yeah O_O but the point gets across..

the truth is.. that america really has only begun to start being civilized in the last 20 years or so.. sure. america was disccovered in 1492.. and people settled after that.. but we really have only become aware of our problems a short time ago...

countries like england, australia, germany, spain.. etc.. have had basicaly defined borders for many many years...

what I mean is that the whole cultures have had alot more time to develop than we have...
I'd have to disagree with that. OK, the UK has had it's area defined forever, simply because it is an island. However, the configuration of the nations of western Europe wasn't set until the end of World War I, or 1919. Eastern Europe, or what was the former communist block, was completely redefined after the (beginning of the) Soviet Union fell in 1989.

I also found this, re: racial relations in the UK:

Quote:
The Commission for Racial Equality is a UK non-governmental body set up under the Race Relations Act 1976 to tackle racial discrimination and promote racial equality. It works in the public and private sectors to encourage fair treatment and to promote equal opportunities for everyone, regardless of their race, colour, nationality, or national or ethnic origin.
I'm not saying that the UK is worse off, or the US better, but the world in general dealt with these issues, and is still dealing with these issues, in much the same time frame. In fact, the EU is conducting seminars, etc. this year about the Inclusion Index: http://www.britishcouncil.org/brusse...sion-index.htm

The US is a young country, comparatively, but the reason we are targets in the media has nothing to do with that. It is nothing more than the fact that we are the sole "super-power" in the world. The fact that the perception is that this is a terribly dangerous place to live has very little to do with the day-to-day reality that the vast majority of Americans live with. Yes, there is violence and there is crime. Yes, there is gun violence. But this certainly isn't a common occurance in my life!
post #49 of 49
You have to remeber that Micheal Moore's movies are VERY one sided. Don't believe everything you see.

The violence is not widespread. It most occurs in cities where you tend to have more people in the lower classes. You rarely hear of gun crimes in the suburbs. I can only remeber 1 shooting in Morgantown in the past 4 years.
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