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Evolution and "intelligent design" - Page 3

post #61 of 80
You know, I haven't posted to this since early on because I saw it had (unsurprisingly ) gotten off the original subject and onto the "is evolution/science or religion/philosophy right" argument. I'm a biologist, and could contribute, but I don't usually get involved in those any more, because those discussions usually go nowhere. However, certain facets of the discussion, from "my side", as it were, were bothering me. I kept my mouth shut, but one of the most recent posts impelled me to write something. So I spent a bunch of time off-line composing it in as brief a form as possible (so hard!). And by the time I return, it has been announced that we should get back to the original topic. I am requesting permission to post it anyway. If you want, the mods can preview it first. Or perhaps a new IMO thread needs to be created? LOL!
post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlojeck
I'm quite chilled, thanks. ;-)
When I said chill, just a little, I was referring to this comment: (or are you going to claim to know His will?) Ok, I'll admit it. I'm one of those sensitive types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlojeck
To my thinking there is no topic more deserving of serious discussion then this one right here, so the language may be a bit more honest then you'll find elsewhere on this board, but I bear no ill will to anyone here.
Likewise. As much as I disagree, I respect your opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlojeck
You have just shown the EXACT reason I'm against faith in a higher being. You thank God for healing you and think prayer did it. I, on the other hand, am amazed at YOUR strength and will for pulling yourself through such a horrific and painful experience, and thankful for the men of science who made your treatment possible. I think you cheat yourself and them of much deserved praise by thanking an invisible man in the sky.
I DO thank the men who made my recovery possible, but I can't cheat God of the praise He deserves either. Besides that, SO MANY people were trying to comfort me, but God comforted me much more than any humans did.
post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi
You know, I haven't posted to this since early on because I saw it had (unsurprisingly ) gotten off the original subject and onto the "is evolution/science or religion/philosophy right" argument. I'm a biologist, and could contribute, but I don't usually get involved in those any more, because those discussions usually go nowhere. However, certain facets of the discussion, from "my side", as it were, were bothering me. I kept my mouth shut, but one of the most recent posts impelled me to write something. So I spent a bunch of time off-line composing it in as brief a form as possible (so hard!). And by the time I return, it has been announced that we should get back to the original topic. I am requesting permission to post it anyway. If you want, the mods can preview it first. Or perhaps a new IMO thread needs to be created? LOL!
I hear your frustration loud and clear, Obi! An I thank you for not just posting anyway. If your well thought out post is relevant to the diversion, rather than the original thread topic, I think the thing to do would be to start a new thread, referencing the post that provoked your response. Then perhaps the two discussions can each have their place. I, for one, would be most interested to see what you have to say.
post #64 of 80
Brian - why is this such a big deal to you? Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and faith system - I have mine and no one is going to try and change my mind as well as I am not going to try and change anyones mind either. If people want to believe in God and have faith, thats okay. If people don't want to believe or have faith, thats okay too.
post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwideus
Brian - why is this such a big deal to you?
I've been asked to ease up a bit, so let me answer this as... gently as I can, and I'll let the discussion go on from there without me.

The debate is about teaching religious beliefs in science classes, as if they were science. I beleive that doing so has the potential to entire generations of children by substituting faith's "belief without evidence" for critical thinking skills.

To my thinking, this is as bad as if I dressed up in a shiny suit and toured the country pretending to be a man of god, holding revival meetings and "healing" people. In both cases the local population may feel better, but no good has been done.

Every day the world gets more techically complicated, and not teaching science makes our children less capable of handling this. Huge portions of our population are terrified of things like cloning or "engineered crops" when they truly have no idea what those terms really mean, how these processes are carried out, or what the real issues are. Engineered crops have the potential to bring food to the entire world, and we have citizens convincing starving countries to turn down aid containing these crops. A lack of comfort with science has convinced people here that it's better for someone in another country to starve to death then consume something that they don't understand.

Science is often accused of being emotionless, and there is a good reason for it. When you evaluate something new, when you learn something you didn't know before, there is always an emotional response, often fear or confusion. All science is is the skills needed to work through that fear and evaluate what you really see in an ordered way, so you can truly understand what is going on in front of you. To teach non-science as science prevents the development of this most important skill, and hurts the future generations.

This is a big deal to me. What could possibly be more important then the very definitions of knowledge, education, science, faith, and their applications?
post #66 of 80
A great post, Brian. And good and valid reason for not teaching Creation Theology in public schools. Thanks for getting the focus back on that.
post #67 of 80
I can't be taught faith ?

I can't be taught that the next breath I take will be filled with the nutrients that were in the previous one, or must I haul out the old gas chromo and test the air B-4 each breath ?

The examples are numerous for the concept cited above.

Leonard
post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwin
I can't be taught faith ?

I can't be taught that the next breath I take will be filled with the nutrients that were in the previous one, or must I haul out the old gas chromo and test the air B-4 each breath ?

The examples are numerous for the concept cited above.

Leonard
If you were really concerned about what would be in your next breath, then no, you shouldn't just take it on faith. How do you know for a fact that you aren't about to take a big gulp of deisel exhaust or cigarette smoke or airborn nuclear fallout?

We HOPE each breath is the same as the last, but we don't know until we actually breath.

ok, NOW I'll stay quiet.
post #69 of 80
the thing is ALL of these ideas are "theory" and it is up to each individual to make there own choice, whether we want it or not church and state are not seperate and "God" will always be in schools, children get expelled from school if they refuse to say the pledge of alegiance to the flag and it does say "one nation under God" so until someone changes that God will always play a part...
post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by meiam
the thing is ALL of these ideas are "theory" and it is up to each individual to make there own choice, whether we want it or not church and state are not seperate and "God" will always be in schools, children get expelled from school if they refuse to say the pledge of alegiance to the flag and it does say "one nation under God" so until someone changes that God will always play a part...
Just to throw this thread completely off topic Students are allowed to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance if they object to the "one nation under God" line, and they cannot be punished for it unless they are disruptive (which they can be punished for any time during school).
post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
Just to throw this thread completely off topic Students are allowed to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance if they object to the "one nation under God" line, and they cannot be punished for it unless they are disruptive (which they can be punished for any time during school).
not in all cases...i refused, i wasn't disruptive, just sat quietly and didn't participate and was told i would say it or be expelled...so i was expelled...here (Idaho) kids are not given a choice
post #72 of 80
The words "under God" weren't added to the pledge until 1954. http://www.usconstitution.net/pledge.html
post #73 of 80
God isn't in school.
He's in jail.
He must be because everyone "finds" him there

Just to add some levity

I know that there is no prayer or songs that involve God in Canada..
They threw that out with "God save the Queen"
post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
The words "under God" weren't added to the pledge until 1954. http://www.usconstitution.net/pledge.html
that's very interesting, thanks for the info...i wish i would have known that back then! here in Idaho, God is all over the place in schools...at christmas my daughter brought home music for the christmas program that was a song about baby jesus...i was upset and called, the school got away with it because their program was about how christmas was celebrated around the world...Idaho is a VERY religion orientated state
post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
God isn't in school.
He's in jail.
He must be because everyone "finds" him there

Just to add some levity

I know that there is no prayer or songs that involve God in Canada..
They threw that out with "God save the Queen"
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcat
I DO thank the men who made my recovery possible, but I can't cheat God of the praise He deserves either. Besides that, SO MANY people were trying to comfort me, but God comforted me much more than any humans did.
Renee, as much as I stay out of talking religion with others (b/c faith is such a highly personal thing), I think it's wonderful that you kept up your faith during your battle with cancer Congrats on being a survivor, I had no idea!
post #77 of 80
what's even more interesting about the words "under god" is WHY they were added.

Senator Joeseph McCarthy was on a witchhunt for "anti american" activity, and to stay on his good side and not get branded "a communist" the politicians pushed the legislation through adding "under god" to the Pledge.. McCarthy ruined many good, innocent people's lives, and the "under god" line in the Pledge is essentially in his honor.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlojeck
what's even more interesting about the words "under god" is WHY they were added.

Senator Joeseph McCarthy was on a witchhunt for "anti american" activity, and to stay on his good side and not get branded "a communist" the politicians pushed the legislation through adding "under god" to the Pledge.. McCarthy ruined many good, innocent people's lives, and the "under god" line in the Pledge is essentially in his honor.

All the more reason to restore the original version!
Quote:
Originally Posted by meiam
that's very interesting, thanks for the info...i wish i would have known that back then! here in Idaho, God is all over the place in schools...at christmas my daughter brought home music for the christmas program that was a song about baby jesus...i was upset and called, the school got away with it because their program was about how christmas was celebrated around the world...Idaho is a VERY religion orientated state
I didn't realize that. I grew up in Pennsylvania, which has been proud of its religious tolerance since colonial times, so I rarely encountered that type of thing, despite having attended a Catholic high school and Jesuit university (both of which taught evolution, not creationism).
post #79 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpy
It should be noted that this "controversy" is a very American thing. In most countries the bulk of the population accepts evolution from conservative Poland to even the Vatican.

I also see this from an economic / job angle. The less evolution is taught the less likely biological scientists/researchers would be produced. So failure to teach means that those batch of students would be in a competitive disadvantage, as at least one avenue of future employment that pays well is closed off to them. And if it grows too large then it would affect the economy as firms look to other countries where they can get their research done.

Furthermore, it would seem that this impacts on the poorer students, or at least students who cannot afford private schools in the affected regimes. Those who have to go to public schools in the areas where the school board desire to teach religion in school. Which of course leads me to wonder, what if a student from one of these schools learnt about creationism and because of it a college rejected his application to study biological sciences. Can the student sue the school board for failing in its duties?
IMO the most disheartening part of this discussion is that we are having it at all. It seems that many people no longer understand what the scientific method or mind is. It is frightening to realize that so many Americans have the idea that a belief in ID is the same as the enormous scope of the kind of rigorous thinking and research that has gone into the "theory" of evolution.

It is not an example of having an open mind to teach both ID and evolution and let the students make up their minds as though these ideas represent the same quality of fact, research, and thinking. ID has no basis in fact at all -- it is simply a belief based on some very old ideas that can be undermined by the simplest examination of the facts at hand.

Just as an aside it seems that the word faith is being used in two ways. The first is as a synonym for hope. Hope is the last thing that was left in Pandora's box after most of the awful things had flown out. It is what enables us to feel (or think) our next breath will be like our last, or that the sun really will come up tomorrow, or that the chances are good we can make that trip to the grocery store without an accident. The loss of hope for a human being equals despair and depression.

Faith -- according to my very old dictionary -- is "something that is believed with strong conviction such as a system of religious beliefs; a belief and trust in and loyalty to God."
post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwin
I can't be taught faith ?

I can't be taught that the next breath I take will be filled with the nutrients that were in the previous one, or must I haul out the old gas chromo and test the air B-4 each breath ?

The examples are numerous for the concept cited above.

Leonard
I think we should teach about ALL the worlds faiths - but not in science class. Thats a poor example. I can nip down to the uni and prove the contents of my breath in a couple of minutes - and the mechanisims of human breathing are well established. I dont ever remember seeing a God-o-matic...

Students need to be taught to keep their minds open - but science is also about measurable things, the search for proof, numbers, details etc.
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