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Spaying - Page 2

post #31 of 102
Dear Ken:

Us "crazy" rescuers do what we do because leaving an animal to go hungry is not an option for us.

I know I have too many cats, but they live the high life, eating the best food, having the best medical treatment, sleeping in comfortable, clean conditions and getting lots of love. When the day coms that I cannot provide them with all of the above I will get rid of them, but until then they stay. I would like nothing else to have a normal household with a couple of cats and a couple of dogs, but that won't happen because there are too many animals who need help and as long as I'm able I'm going to help them. I just came from Wal-Mart and splurged to buy myself a cheapo outfit. I remember the days when I shopped at Macy's, J.C. Penney and other fine department stores. I thought nothing of spending $100 on a pair of shoes, but now those things are not important anymore. When people criticize the money I spend on the animals I tell them at least what I spend my money on is breathing and living!

I get no help financiallly or otherwise. My husband works 6 days a week to support what I do because he also realizes these animals have no options. We have about $5,000 saved and that's it. My mother always taught us that the Lord will provide. I know that when you are generous and giving it all comes back so I never worry about being without. Right now I'm over my head financially because of the recent illnesses with my own cats so I'm unable to spay or netuer any ferals and there are some out there having babies. However, in the interim I can't stop feeding them because if I do they will suffer. Sure they will find meager scrapes, bugs, etc., but they will suffer hunger day and night and for those mama's having babies, nothing can be more awful for them then to be hungry and having babies to feed.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of why we do what we do.
post #32 of 102
I think there are two seperate issues here. One is the rescue work that people like Hissy are doing. There, you get the question of how many cats can be taken care of. Numbers can vary from one person or organization to another. Some people can't take care of even one cat, while others can maintain populations of hundreds of cats in the best of coditions. It takes a lot of money, know-how and love but it's certainly possible. This is usually how volunteer rescue organizations are born. When to stop taking in cats depends on each rescue person/organization capabilities - but there is always a limit. That's why they have to keep actively find good homes for cats that are adoptable. I know that the Israeli Cat Society draws the line at 450 cats, because that's as many as their shelter can take care of at the moment. Given more funds, they'd love to increase that number. As it is now, the limit stands at 450. They're always full and they won't accept new cats unless old ones are adopted out.

The second issue is TNR, which is a way to control feral populations. As far as I know, the logic behind TNR is that eventually you get a stable cat population that can be maintained. TNR creates pockets of maintained feral populations where all cats are neutered. New cats rarely join those colonies, as there are already cats filling in that specific local ecological niche. The city of Tel Aviv has an excellent TNR program that started at 1994. Only now they start seeing results in the form of less calls for the animal department to come and deal with "cat problems".
post #33 of 102
Another reason behind TNR is to maintain the health of the colony and stop the problems caused by inbreeding, which are to numerous to mention here. But suffice to say that if a colony goes unchecked and un-spayed, the new kittens coming in can be blind, and so diseased that their life expectancy is less than a week. It may not be the perfect solution to the overwhelming numbers of ferals in the United States and elsewhere, but it one that has viable options with it. The hardest part about placing ferals, is placing the adults. Everyone is smitten with kittens, but the older ones are the hardest to find good homes for. Everyone who adopts a feral cat of my choosing has to understand first that this is no ordinary lap cat. Some people cannot deal with that at all. They want a head-bumper, lap napper perfect kitty and ferals are not like that, not right off the bat anyway.
post #34 of 102
Thread Starter 
As a responsible breeder of Siamese cats, I feel I must address some of the "blame" placed on breeders in this thread for the overwhelming number of cats in shelters and cared for by rescue orgs. To make it easy for those participating in this thread possessing simple minds and unswayable opinions, my motto is: IF YOU DON'T RESCUE - DON'T BREED.

I live in Virginia where last July, a new ordinance was put into law. This law makes it mandatory for cat (and dog breeders too, but as this is a Cat Site, we'll stick to the felines for this thread) breeders to register their catteries, register each litter, and register each kitten. The fees for a litter of 4 kittens would be $100 for the cattery registration, $200 for each litter, and $400 for the kittens for a grand total of $700!!! Additionally, each kitten must be microchipped (the nearest vet clinic capable of microchipping is over 150 miles round trip) with the BREEDER'S contact information, not the kitten buyer's. This means that if a kitten buyer is irresponsible, lets the cat outside and animal control picks it up as it goes walkabout, the BREEDER, not the kitten owner, is responsible!!! The fine to the breeder for a kitten buyer allowing a pet to freely roam is $500 for the first offense, $1000 for the second, and if a third time occurs, they not only take away your registrations, you are slapped with criminal charges. What this has accomplished is this: more irresponsible backyard breeders who breed their cats and sell them "under the table", making those of us who DO comply with the law have to pay for those who don't. So, tell me again, please ... HOW does this help the pet overpopulation problem???

Regarding the issue of spay/neuter, there is also a ordinance here that makes it illegal not to spay and neuter your pets (if you are not a registered breeder). If animal control picks up your pet and it isn't neutered, you pay a per diem for each day you neglect to get it done. The fees aren't cheap. Where I live, there is NO low-cost spay/neuter clinic, no public awareness, no means of educating the persons responsible, and certainly, the low-income population isn't going to fork out $100 or more to make certain they are complicent. Instead, they just allow the animal control officers to believe the pet is a stray, and into the truck it goes, sometimes never to be seen or heard from again.

I live on 100 acres in the country, and evidently, there is a big, flashing neon sign somewhere on my property that tells people to "dump your old, sick cats and unwanted kittens here!!" On any given night, there are anywhere from 10 to 30 cats out there fighting, breeding, getting into trash cans, being run over by cars, mauled by other animals, or taking up residence in any one of my outbuildings where the mice and lizards are plentiful. I feed and vet each and every one of them as if they were my own. When animal control shows up here, and they do quite frequently I might add, I always say the same thing -- this one showed up recently, I haven't been able to catch it yet, and just as soon as I do, off it goes to be vetted, neutered, and vaccinated. Fortunately, the AC officers around here all know me, trust me to do the right thing, and have never written me up. (Let me knock on wood real quick so as not to jinx it!!) All of the money to accomplish these things comes out of my pocket.

So, please - those of you whose bad opinions of breeders simply cannot be swayed - remember me the next time you place all breeders in the same basket.

Crawling back underneath my rock for a while,

post #35 of 102
Thread Starter 
Originally posted by Patsy
I have a pedigree Manx...I have a pedigree Snowshoe Siamese...I have a pedigree Persian...
Just out of curiosity, do you know for a fact these are pedigreed cats, or are you simply using that term to denote the appearance of belonging to a certain breed? Just because it walks like a Siamese (or Persian, or Manx or insert the breed flavor of the day here) and talks like one doesn't mean it IS one...just like going to church every day doesn't make you any more a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. By definition, a pedigreed animal is one whose lineage can be traced and documented as well as registered with a cat fancy - such as show cats and those cats who are part of a responsible breeding program. If there is any question as to the lineage, or the documents are not eligible for registry due to one or more non-breed specific cats in the lineage, then it is NOT a pedigreed cat, and the useage of that term is inappropriate here.

Originally posted by Patsy
Breeders want peoople to believe that only ferals overpopulate the streets and shelters. This is a falacy. Irresponsible pet owners and people who think it's alright to keep breeding, for whatever reason, are the reason for the overpopulation problem.
Do we (breeders) really want people to think that? Where do you get that idea? How would it in any conceivable way benefit us as breeders or our cats to have people believe such utter nonsense?

While I agree with you that irresponsible pet owners who possess a throw-away mind-set are indeed a large part of the problem, I have to disagree that "people who think it is alright to keep breeding" play as large a part as you would have us believe, Patsy. If you look at the actual numbers of pedigreed cats (and by pedigreed, I mean actually possessing a registered pedigree with a cat fancy, NOT those cats who may simply APPEAR to belong to a certain breed) in shelters today, you'll find that less than 2% of them are actually pedigreed cats.

Originally posted by Patsy
Most people are under the mistaken notion that just because an animal is pedigree or just because it cost a lot of money, that is insurance that the animal will be taken care of by it's owner. That is so far from the truth. All you have to do is look at the thousands of pedigree rescue groups in business to know this is a lie.
It's better "insurance" than picking up a kitten from someone's cardboard box in front of your local Wal-Mart ... I find that most people tend to value that for which they pay a higher price. While this may not be true for all who purchase a kitten from a breeder, I think it is true of most. In fact, I find that most of the people I have talked to as potential kitten buyers are highly educated, as well as more aware and in touch with the issues of pet overpopulation, and make contributions to animal rescue and related organizations more so and in bigger amounts than other groups of pet owners. Just my experience (as well as a major part of my Purchase Agreement - if you buy a Rosehaven Siamese, you WILL contribute, or you WON'T buy a Rosehaven Siamese - it's really that simple) ... your mileage may vary.

Breed-specific rescue organizations do not discriminate in their choices for intake. For instance, I know of several "Siamese" rescue orgs that will take any cat with blue eyes. Again, we go back to the mentality of "I'll just stand in the garage awhile, and POOF, I'll magically turn into a Lexus sedan". Of the cats I have seen available for adoption through one particular "Siamese" organization, my guess is that the majority of them possess only about as much of the required DNA as a pedigreed Siamese sneezing it on them would throw.

Originally posted by Patsy
Millions of pet cats and dogs will continue to die until those responsible accept the responsiblity and stop blaming it on something or someone else because they are to ignorant or selfish to do otherwise.
Truer words were never uttered, Patsy - but look at it in the proper context. Rescue people do a good thing. I am not disputing that. You are as necessary as oxygen in my mind. But don't get so wrapped up in the heroics that you forget the intended goal. Education is best served with honey on dainty little toast points - not crammed down the throat dry and stale.

My best to you in all your endeavors,

post #36 of 102
Let's see, the Persian, and the Manx belonged to breeders who thought it was alright to breed them to make money, but then grew tired and threw them in the street. The owner of the persian had the nerve to do a C section on her, then throw her in the street unfixed. Do I have their actual papers, no, but they are definitely of pedigree. The prevous owner of my Border Collie says she's pedigree with papers, however, I see her as a Border Collie mix. Her previous owner let her roam the streets because he didn't want to be bothered.

What about all those kittens you sell as "pet quality". They aren't as recognized by the cat fanciers as the "perfect ones", isn't that correct? What happens to them? Are you one of those breeders who kills the not so perfect or do you sell them for a lesser price. Maybe they the ones I'm finding on the streets starving every night.
By the way, what is a cat fancier? All the people I know who love and adore their pets don't consider themselves a can fancier. What is that, a special term for people who only admire the most beautiful and the best of breed?

I know a mixed breed siamese when I see one. I actually have 4 that I rescued and are up for adoption. Are you saying that a pedigree without his papers in hand doesn't consititute a pedigree. When people throw their pets in the street they don't attach their registration papers to them.

As for breeders I'll say it again, if you're adding to the numbers, you're adding to the overpopulation problem. It's simple math, nothing complicated.

As for my rescue efforts, I never brag about what I do for recognition. I only tell about it to make people realize the need that is out there for thousands of unwanted pets. When people tell me I'm so good and I will be blessed, my only response is, I only want blessings for the animals. Because believe me what I'm getting out of this is an empty bank account, gray hair before my time, and lots of other "wonderful things" I wouldn't have if I didn't have to go out every day and night and care for pets people throw in the street. I would love a normal household and normal life. However, I love all animals, no matter the breed. I don't "fancy" one living creature over another because of the way it looks or acts or matches the furniture.

Don't every think that because someone pays money for an animal, it means more to them. It is just not the case. Either they love and respect it or they don't. You will see more evidence (on the streets) of throwaway pedigree dogs than cats because cats tend to hide. I might add, very expensive dogs.

By the way, I'm proud of what I do. Sorry if that offends anyone. I can walk in an animal shelter, look at the numbers of animals who are going to die and know I'm not responsible for that. I'm part of the solution and I'm very proud of that because it is something to be proud of.

A local humane rescue organization, is often notified of catteries that are unfit, at which time they moved in with authorities to proscecute the breeders and confiscate the cats. One that really stands out is one where they found 59 "pedigree" persians, with eyes missing, due to infection, malnourishment, flea infestation, etc., etc. This breeder advertised as a "responsible" breeder. Just for your information, there are more breeders like this one out there breeding then they are "good" breeders.

Also, I want to add, people who have these so called "catteries" that keep their cats in cages, are nothing more than a feline version of a puppy mill.

I have nothing else to say because no matter what I say it won't change the mindset of those who want to make money and/or act irresponsibly by breeding and the mindset of people like me who want to save animals from dying because the thought of any animal dying because no one wants it, makes them ill.
post #37 of 102
and expect anything good to come of it. To clump all breeders together as being "part of the problem" is in my mind's eye creating yet another problem. Not all breeders breed irresponsibly. I know of some who will not allow their "pet quality" cats to be released before they get them spayed and neutered. To say that all breeders who keep cats in cages is similar to a kitty mill, is again causing problems because in thinking like that, you shut your mind off to the possibility that you might be wrong and come off as a zealot which could turn people off.

I have seen a few pedigreed cats in the colonies that I have maintained. Sadly, most of these are Siamese and Persians. Why in the world a responsible owner would allow a pedigree cat outside to escape, is beyond me, but it does happen. I have several Manx's with my group, are they pedigreed? Probably not, but they are a recognizable breed over the common alley or tabby cats. I have had black cats surrendered to me- two of them who were crucified by two very sick 13 year old boys one halloween night several years ago. re black cats pedigreed- no just a recognizable breed.

There are several hot issues on cat boards. Spaying and neutering, keeping inside versus outside cats and declawing are on the top of the list. I personally do not feel that breeders are at fault with the pet over population, because most of them, do breed responsibly. I believe the biggest people at fault are the ones who have cats and who care one whitt about them, let them go outside, not spay or neuter them, barely even feed them and the cat is then forced to find alternate ways to survive. I have spoken to people until I am blue in the face when I find them in front of a store with a box full of kitties and or puppies about spaying and neutering the adults. Most times I am told the people "can't afford to have the cat or dog fixed" and so they bring their darling little children out to add to the "helpless factor" and hasten the departure of the troublesome babies they can ill afford.

Also high on my list for over population of the cat world are the pet shops who normally buy from kitty mills where not only do they not spay or neuter the adults, but hardly ever even maintain the health of them.

There are no easy answers, and I rescue because I see the need for someone to do something. I do it, as stated before because I choose to, I don't expect anything in return and I sacrifice a lot to keep on doing it. I just try not to point fingers at anyone here in this forum, because in just coming here, you show that you have what the people who are at fault do not, a true love and caring for cats.

This has been a good thread with lots of information and food for thought.Please do not allow yourself to succumb to the temptation of adding flames because of the emotional issue and feel you are justified by doing so.
post #38 of 102

You're right I won't get into this discusion again. I do get very emotional. You are obviously better versed than I am. I am known to let my mouth fly open before my brain goes into gear.

I will never discuss breeding, or encourage anyone to spay or neuter their pets on these boards again because it's none of my business. As for breeders, they'll do what they want no matter the consequences so there is no use in me getting upset about it.

I'll keep my opinions about the above mentioned to myself so as not to offend anyone.

post #39 of 102
Thread Starter 
My GOD! Are you trying to say that there are breeders out there who actually MAKE MONEY????? What a concept! They must be a heck of a lot better at it than I am then, because it costs me well over what I can sell the animals for and I have never made any money from it!

All joking aside, yes, Patsy, there are bad breeders out there who make the rest of us ethical, responsible people who care about the breed we choose to support look like monsters. It sounds like you've had several awful experiences with people who shouldn't be breeding (pets or children in my book, but I'm told my book and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee) but they are. So, what is your answer to the problem??? Load all breeders onto the same bus and then drive them over the nearest cliff to fall to their agonizing deaths below. Hrmmm... that one needs to be re-thunk if you will pardon the slang term.

My "pet quality" animals are altered and microchipped with my contact information before they ever leave my home. No, I don't sell them at a "reduced" rate because I do not sell breeding quality animals to the general public. If an animal is not suitable as a breeding animal, then it will be altered and if possible, placed in a loving home. If I am lucky enough to actually get that rare breeding quality animal, then it only potentially becomes a part of my program. You see, there are many factors in determining which animals are suitable. Young males sometimes don't have a clue, or females will refuse a stud for whatever reason ... so if I place a cat into the program and it isn't working out after several attempts, I alter and place it in a loving home, or keep the animal until it has lived out it's natural life span.

As for your comments about me killing the not so perfect ones, I take serious offense. In my lifetime, I have kept animals which were not suitable to be placed outside of my home here with me for the span of their natural lifetimes - I have ~~NEVER EVER~~ euthanized an animal because it was simply "less than perfect". Now, that being said, I will euthanize when the circumstances legitimately call for it, such as in the event of unsurmountable physical deformity or some other equally devastating viability issue. Bottom line is that I will not allow any animal to suffer.

A "Cat Fancier" in the traditional sense of the phrase is a person who is educated about the breed which they support, owns and possibly even breeds as well as shows cats in that breed and is a member in good standing of a recognized cat registry such as CFA or ACA to name just a couple. However, you don't actually have to breed or show to be considered a fancier. You can appreciate the traits and qualities of any particular breed, support as well as further the education of people about the breed, contribute to the future welfare of the breed and still be considered a fancier. To suggest that fanciers only love the best and most beautiful is just spiteful and downright mean.

As for the cats you are finding starving on the streets, I can assure you beyond any reasonable doubt that I can account for each and every animal I have ever been responsible for bringing into this world, and I strongly resent the implication you have made here. I don't deserve it. There may be some who do, but I am not one of them.

If you know a mixed-breed Siamese when you see one, then you should also know not to call it a pedigreed cat. It is a mixed-breed that resembles a Siamese. That is ALL it is and that is ALL it ever will be. There is a difference and I really don't care how you want to rationalize it, a mixed-breed is NEVER a pedigreed animal. What I am saying, Patsy, is that just because it looks like a certain breed doesn't mean that it is that breed. It may have one or more animals of that breed in it's bloodlines, but just one cat out of the breed renders it a mixed-breed, so the use of the term "pedigreed" is, once again, not appropriately used when describing one.

My dear, how you can possibly say you don't brag about what you do??? You came here and posted globally about what you do. Your posts in this thread alone have simply reeked of patting yourself on the back and making absolutely certain everyone who happens along to read about you knows what a superior person you are. The mere fact that you even mentioned at all how people tell you how good you are and blessed you will be is enough for me to interpret bragging. There are so many others involved in rescue who share your attitudes that you all begin to resemble each other after a while. So, yes, in my opinion, you ARE bragging about it.

I choose to support Old-Style Siamese cats because their numbers are dwindling to the point of near extinction. But as you have so vehemently pointed out, I am a big bad breeder, and as such, you firmly believe that don't really give a rip about them. In your way of thought, I only want to breed them because I can make a poo-pot full of money off of it as a full-time commercial enterprise. Sheesh, Patsy. Get your head out of your butt. I breed them because I don't want to see them go away and never come back! How is that really any different from what you do????

You are entirely right, either someone will value their animals, or they won't. It is up to the breeder to decide whether or not a potential buyer will be one who values the animal or not and bases their decision to place an animal on their feelings about it. I have one specific question that I ask all my potential owners to determine their mindset along these lines, and it only has one right answer. If they don't get it right on the first try, they don't get another chance. It has never failed me.

I am glad you are proud of what you do. You do a good, necessary thing. I too am proud of what I do. I do a good, necessary thing too and who the heck are you to minimize it? You don't know me, you know nothing of my program, you are totally closed to the idea that breeders may even actually be helping in ways that you are too negatively endoctrinated to even fathom.

As for rescuers, I'll say it loud and clear - if you don't recognize that breeders have a legitimate place, then you are an ignorant zealot hell-bent on being right no matter what and I won't waste my time with you. Perform your "simple math" and choose to think it isn't complicated all you want but know right here and now that I won't play with someone who intentionally throws sand in my eyes. On the other hand, if you want to open a meaningful dialogue and debate the issues intelligently with an open mind, then by all means, I'm your girl.

I'm done. You've written me off as a bad guy, and so now playing by your rules, I'm now writing you off as not worth my time. When you can come in and play nice, let me know. I'll be waiting patiently.

post #40 of 102
Dear Gaye:

I apologize for offending you. It won't happen again.

post #41 of 102
Where in Virginia is this ordinance? In one city or statewide?
There are multiple states working on/passing dog/cat breeder laws. Some make sense, some are vary restrictive. Some also cover shelter's, rescue home's and boarding facilities, depending on the state. New York, you're inspected if you sell more than 9 pets, effective July 2002, Wisconsin if you sell more than 25, effective 2004, Calif. law gets worse every day. Some include cats, some don't.

>>>>>>a new ordinance was put into law. This law makes it mandatory for cat (and dog breeders too, .....breeders to register their catteries, register each litter, and register each kitten. The fees for a litter of 4 kittens would be $100 for the cattery registration, $200 for each litter, and $400 for the kittens for a grand total of $700!!! Additionally, each kitten must be microchipped .... <<<<<<
post #42 of 102
Thread Starter 
Hey Bluekat,

I am in central Virginia, about 2 hours south of D.C.

From what I have read, (I have the dang link to the actual language of the ordinance around here somewhere ... sorry - I am pressed for time at the moment - but when I locate the link, I'll post it) this is a local ordinance for the city of Richmond and surrounding counties. I live just north of Richmond, so my county is included, however, I am not 100% certain of that, so I really will make every effort to find the link so you can read for yourself.

Regarding new laws in Virginia around rescue groups, I DO have that link handy ...


One thing (among many) that stood out as I read the information on the link above (this latest legislation around rescues) is the inspections for foster homes...many are in private residences, and I fear we will lose some when they find out they will have to let their local Animal Control officers in for inspections of their bedrooms (I know a lot of fosters who have at least some of the cats housed in their bedrooms - that's why I make that reference).

post #43 of 102
Yes, there are some bad backyard breeders but the fact is that breeding is pointless when you have countless animals languishing away in shelters and trying to fend for themselves on the streets after being abandonded.It's compounding a serious problem. I'm not trying to offend anyone I'm just stating my own, personal opinion and I'm sure some may not agree...thats fine.

You can't rely on wild animals to control the feral populations (and who even wants to think of an animal being torn apart by another). Spaying and neutering and maintaining is the only answer. You definitely can't save them all but there are many dedicated people out there who work very hard to maintain already established colonies.

I live in the country and while, wild animals are a danger, I find that attacks of that kind don't occur very often. The farmer across the road from my house has barn cats (fixed and vaccinated) and none of them have ever been attacked by anything. I also have a gray feral whom I look after and he's been around for about 5 years now. He's healthy and happy. Ferals often become "outside smart". They learn ways of avoiding being pray. They arent always successful but they fair better then abandonded,domesticated house cats.

post #44 of 102
Isn't it just safe to say "NEUTER OR SPAY YOUR PET PLEASE?" I mean honestly--no offense, but I don't care about exact figures on populations because I know what I see with my eyeballs at all the shelters, in the wild where I see ferals, etc. It's a point not worth arguing IMHO.

They are overpopulated and the battle will be a long one that must be continuously fought. So--simply put...please spay or neuter your pet and if you can, borrow a trap and get a feral and take him/her to a no kill kitty shelter to have neutered/spayed.

post #45 of 102
My belief on that issue (along w/ others I've seen in my OWN state-Wa) is that it's the kill shelters (not all, but some). The ones that are earning the bucks, getting the funds, etc--they want US out of business, those of us who foster that is. In my state they want folks who foster (they only got room to ask re: those fostering like more than 7 or something) paying for licensing and such--something like 500.00 a month. It's pathetic. When a family fosters a CHILD they get PAID and yes, they to get inspected/investigated--but they get paid. Here's what I say--want to start inspecting? PAY US THEN! OTHERWISE BUTT OUT! These are temporary homes and provided you have a spot for the cat there shouldn't be any issues.

My example and why I believe this is as follows: The local kill shelter where I use to live (Humane Society, mind you the people there every last one I ever met were just AWFUL) threatened to stop all "business" with one of the local towns unless they agreed to some set amount MORE money (it was nauseating how much more they wanted) and also unless they'd impose new laws/fees regarding foster homes for animals as well as folks who live outside city limits who are running their own "sanctuary" of sorts, unincorporated that's what I'm thinking of. The town refused to do it so the Humane Society cancelled their contract w/ that town. Basically what they were saying was, "Since these people are taking away OUR business then you need to tax them and penalize them for our portion and give it to us." It was pathetic. As it is you have to go to these "people" to get your pet licensed. They DENIED my one cat license because I hadn't gotten my dog licensed, well I was waiting until her spay operation but boy they wanted that extra 50.00 to the point of REFUSING to license my cat until I licenced her! You'd think they would've SUPPORTED me spaying her, but nope--they want that money. This SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED is all I can say.

All dealings I ever had with PAWS (Progressive Animal Welfare Society) were always positive. Those people were WONDERFUL and they actually cared. They weren't out for the almighty dollar. SO it matters if you're dealing with a "for profit" facility or a "not for profit" facility. How about getting gov't funding for the NOT FOR PROFIT FOLKS? They may already get it I don't know, I'm still learning myself but still. Those are the true people who care IMHO.

Just some random thoughts--not saying I'm "right" but I don't like what I see SOME of these orgs doing.

post #46 of 102
When someone had murdered and dumped an innocent puppy in my alley this same org REFUSED to investigate. They just took her in her garbage bag, blood dripping and said..."Oh we don't do that..."
WHY THE HECK NOT!!!!???? GRRR....Ok, I'm going to drop it now otherwise I'm liable to get really angry. Sorry folks--didn't mean to hijack your topic here, lol!

But this peeves me off!

post #47 of 102
hello, i´m kind of new here, i have a smoke persian 3 month old baby boy, when is the right age to spay them?? I live in an apartment on the 3rd floor, i don´t think he will ever see another cat. We have a big veranda but i think he´s to small to be out there. Thanx for any comments.

post #48 of 102
I've been at my current apt for 2-1/2 years. About the time I got my first cat, my boyfriend joked to me about why I didn't just catch one of the wild kittens that were living under the equipment shed.

And there was an entire litter. All very cute, very wild. Slowly they disappeared, until there was just one kitten still hanging out with her mom. That's when I really started to watch all the feline activity around me.

The following summer, I started learning about rescue and TNR. I managed to catch that one remaining kitten (who I call Julie). Of course, by then she was grown, and had a litter of her own. A few weeks later, I caught one of her kittens. Bart is a beautiful Oriental Shorthair. Purebred...hardly. His mom was a classic tabby and dad was a seal-point Siamese. But he is a beautiful accident of nature! He's sleek and slender and loves to chirrup at me when I'm late with dinner! Besides, once they are neutered, does it matter if they have a pedigree or not?

Since I caught Julie, I've been trying to catch the old Siamese tom. Wily and smart, he would always walk past my smelly bait with his nose in the air! But lately, I tried a different approach.

I never feed a stray unless I make eye contact with it. So two months ago, I made direct eye contact with 'Tom' and dropped some food. Maybe a week later, I did it again. Two weeks later, to my great surprise, 'Tom' sauntered right up to me as I sat outside with my cats. He sat himself down like he'd been coming everyday for a year - and waited for me to go inside and bring some food out!

I wasn't feeding him everyday, but I was building trust. He knew who I was and that I would feed him. That was enough for him. Last night I had a breakthrough. I was standing outside with my cats when I felt one run by and tap my leg. It was Tom! I brought him some food, and when he was done he was so grateful, he rubbed on me! Later, I managed to get him inside my apt and into my bathroom!

A friend of mine, also in the Austin Siamese Rescue group, came over to pick him up this morning. He was obviously dumped, so we're going to try and get him reintroduced to polite society! Is he pedigree? Who knows. I thought he was a mix b/c his face is so round...but my friend says our Tom has those great big jowls from being unaltered for so long. Apparently when they fight and bite, their facial muscles become stronger and bigger around the jaws. Incredible! I wonder what he looked like when he was younger. He looks like a tough guy now.

I don't think most people care if their 'Siamese' is a mix or not. They like the colorpoints, or the blue eyes, or the snowshoes. And as long as kitty is fixed, it shouldn't matter.

So, now on to the next kitty. Bart's littermate is still running wild....

post #49 of 102
Lulu, there's a lot of debate on the best age to spay/neuter. Most rescuers will tell you *AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!*

My vet has told me 5-6 months. The spay clinic I volunteer at will only accept animals that weigh more than three pounds, and are at least three months old. There are some SPCA groups that will fix kittens as young as 6 or 8 weeks old.

I know with my males, I'm always paranoid that they'll start spraying. I had one male done at 5 months, another at 4 months, and one of my fosters just got done at 12 months. I've been lucky that no one has sprayed.

If you keep your kitty indoors all the time, then it probably won't hurt to wait until he is 4 or 5 months old. I personally didn't feel comfortable waiting until 6 months b/c they start to get their male hormones then...and that's when the spraying starts. I wanted to make sure that was 'nipped' in the bud!

The males have a quick and easy surgery...a quick nip and they're done. He will heal quickly...just watch to make sure he doesn't lick himself too much.

Don't wait too long! Accidents happen everyday!
post #50 of 102
I read on a Humane Society page that there are 10 homeless animals for every person in America.

If you 'estimate' that the average household has four people (ok, so this isn't exact)...well then you see there are 40 homeless animals for every household in America.

That's the stat I quote to people. I think it brings the problem down to a more understandable scale. You can talk about the millions and millions of animals being killed, abandoned, etc. but when you tell someone there are 40 homeless animals for every household...it makes them pause.

Do you want 40 pets?

Not me.

"Don't Breed or Buy While Shelter Pets Die"

Support the No-Kill Millennium. Spay and Neuter all your pets AND strays.
post #51 of 102
So, you are saying all breeders should stop breeding?? and no one should buy a purebred dog or cat?.
post #52 of 102
This was SUCH A good thread until people started flaming. Maybe we can discuss this like adults again?
post #53 of 102
Boy Sam, it has been a long time since I read that thread. You are right though, sans the flames it is a pretty informative thread. It did get pretty wild there for awhile, and I do hope something was accomplished back when all that was going on.
post #54 of 102
Hi M.A.

It has such good information as well, and it's one of the important threads, we don't want to exhibit flaming to our prospective/new members.

post #55 of 102
Well it is a subject that is wrapped up in passion. I have seen worse flames than this.

I don't fall in the mold of being a rescuer who believes breeding is wrong. BYB is wrong, regardless, but ethical breeders promoting the best of their lines, is another story.
post #56 of 102
I hope in my time here there is never a fight.

I too [in being a breeder] don't think breeding cats responsibly is wrong BUT indeed BYB is especially with cats just picked up from any dirty shelter ( Not saying shelters are dirty but some are) and then just bred to try and make money.

In a sentence. Get your cat fixed. Fullstop.
post #57 of 102
Thread Starter 
Just the other night, I went back through and read this thread again ... and while I do freely admit my responsibility in getting upset with certain folks, I always felt it was an informative and important message.

post #58 of 102
I wasn't really aiming at you Gaye.. Sorry!

It does however, [ avoiding the flaming ] pass on a good message

post #59 of 102
Thread Starter 
I didn't think you were aiming for me, lamb - no offense taken at all.

post #60 of 102

Do you breed Siamese?
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