Spaying

patsy

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Dear Heidi:

Thanks for trying to respond to this "natural predator" thing. You've a bigger person than me. There are just some things I can't reply to because the ignornace of it makes me want to scream and then I can't think!

As for the other comments posted:

Since when are domesticated cats as wild as wolves and coyotes? As far as I know they have never been equipped to be considered a "wild animal". A feral is a cat that is left to it's own resources, but never is it able to tackle a wolf, cayote or even a domesticated dog. Bringing in other animals to kill them is cruel and should never be thought of as "animal control". I think they should take the people who dump the animals, put them in the wild, and see how they survive. Hell, humans are the superior species right. Well, let the idiots who throw animals away prove it!

I just learned that a fellow rescuer caught a man putting a sick kitten out by our lake front area. She saw him putting the kitten on the ground and she asked what was he doing. He said his wife told him the cat was dirty and he should bring it out to the lake because there were other mama cats out there that would take care of it. The cat was so infected with upper respiratory it wasn't funny. How stupid is that? If that is not a typical senereo. Unfortunately, the lady who rescued the kitten did not get his license plate number which I would have done and he would be explaining his actions before a judge!

I have a dream, that someone with some money, make a documentary, put it on primetime television to show what happens to the animals that are dumped and abandoned. Show the idiots the dead, mangled, suffering animals that were going to make it own their own. Maybe, just maybe, some will catch on.

I told a friend today, how can you expect people to care about animals when they in fact don't care about themselves. Think about it, if you wake up in the morning and have no purpose, how can you find compasssion for something else?

Later gator - a slang used by us New Orleans folks!

Patsy
 

valanhb

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Bluecat - It is so hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic in writing. Sad to say, some people actually think that may be a viable option.

Feral cats, as in the ones who have been without human contact for generations, may seem as wild as coyotes or wolves. They have learned to view humans as a threat, and no wonder considering how they are generally treated. However, at one time, perhaps generations before, these animals were "owned" and were abandoned for one reason or another. Maybe some "escaped" an abusive situation and that's where some of them got their fear of humans, but the majority were just given to their own devices.

I know it seems like you are getting flamed on this thread. Like the declawing issue, this is a big hot button for some people, especially those who do rescue work and see first hand what wonderful companions some people throw away and worse. The two main posters in this discussion, Hissy and Patsy, have the biggest hearts and have opened their homes, wallets, and given unlimited love to these unwanted animals. They are both very passionate about what they do, and sometimes passion comes across as flaming.
 

hissy

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By abuse or by ignorant owners. Let me tell you a story about a kitty I got about 4 years ago. A friend of mine over the Internet called me one afternoon begging and pleading for me to help this coworker who had a two year old orange kitty. This kitten was born of a domesticated female and the coworker took the kitty in for a pet. Now something happened that she never would admit to, but my guess is she lost her temper one day and hurt this cat quite badly and he decided the best thing to do from there was to protect himself from her. I got in touch with this woman, and she told me all this stuff about how she had to push this cats food into the room with a pole, slam the door so it wouldn't escape! The one time he did manage to get out, he "tracked her" got her into a corner and proceeded to terrorize her for an hour......Pleeeze! lol I listened to this poor woman go on and on about this holy terror and she lived in a bigger city near me, so I told her bring the cat, I would take him, work with him and find him a good home. She brought him that day and she brought all kinds of stuff with him. Expensive cat toys one of those luggage type cat carriers, computer scoopable litterbox you name it this cat had everything.

I put him up in the cat room, talked to her for awhile, assured her he would be fine and she finally left, so I went upstairs to meet Pete- and holy cow! We quickly changed his name to Psychotic Pete. The only way I could get close to him was with wearing welding gloves longs sleeves and lots of clothing. He was intent on shredding any arms that came near him, another indication to me that she had severly hurt him somewhere down the line. I had to trap him inside that room, take him to the vet where they had to sedate him just to run tests on him.There was nothing medically wrong with this cat.

I had him for about 3 weeks when one afternoon I went upstairs to feed him and found he had climbed through the security trellis I have on all the windows in the cat room and clawed his way out of the screen and jumped down to the ground without killing himself and he was gone. I have never seen him since, and although he could have had a brain tumor, he was definitely a feral cat though not born of being one. Abuse a kitty long enough so they lose trust in humans and you will have a wild cat on your hands, this is also true of cats who are neglected. They learn that people "hurt them" so they don't trust. I have also had feral cats that have come here and been completely wild and in a manner of weeks, they are fine, but others take months, years even before that initial first contact.

We have natural predators as well. Coyotes, cougars, raccoons, possums, turkey buzzards, all kinds of hazards for kitties and cats, but still the ferals show up and they will continue showing up, because in this part of where I live, I am the only one who has a feral feeding station outside and no matter where these cats get dumped, ultimately they seem to show up at my door. I will continue to TNR and feed these critters until there is no breath left in me to do so. I believe that is what I am supposed to do because there are not to many people who would take the time out to care.
 

bluekat

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I don't think I've ever paid attention to "declawing" arguements. Seems to me a cat needs something to defend itself with. Neither cats or dogs started out domesticated. They seem to revert to the wild in a couple generations. As to the animal dumpers being turned out in the boonies, sounds like a marvelous idea.
I tried to get the license plate number, of someone in a pickup who dropped off a malamute, but I couldn't get my binoculars out fast enough. 3 days later I saw the dog dead, at the edge of the ditch. I was nosy so walked up to it. It had not been hit by a car. It had been shot. Probably by a farmer. I imagine the people who dropped it off, told their kids they gave it to a good home !!!!
I'm still not convinced that feeding loose cats is a good idea. All it will do is keep attracting more of them, from all over. It's just like feeding deer. Feed 2 skinny deer in the winter, that you feel sorry for, and pretty soon you've got 40 or 50 of them. Then you are buying hay by the truckload, the herd runs accross the road at night, causeing death or major car damage to passing moterists. The deer feeding has gotten so bad here, that the state is probably going to make a law against it. I would think having 100-200 cats all in one place is going to be a reservoir for disease. I'm surprised that towns or cities allow it. People fed geese until they wouldn't migrate anymore, and they have ruined parks & beaches in Canada.
 

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Perhaps ignoring them and starving them is the answer? I don't think so. There are cities and towns across America who have enacted laws against feeding the feral cats in an attempt to stop the overpopulation. All this has resulted in is the cats becoming more of a so-called "nuisance" and raiding garbage cans and literally breaking into places where food is stored so they can survive. By feeding them, trapping and neutering them, I am stopping them from over populating at least in this area. I have no control over whether or not someone drives by the house and drops a cat off in the woods. You cannot see my feral feeding station from the road, but you can see the two barns and all the land we have. I could not in good conscience stop feeding these defenseless critters, and they really are defenseless against the cold, against being scared, against being terrorized,against being chased by larger animals and against any vehicle they happen to meet. Unlike a deer, you can run over a cat without wrecking your vehicle. A feral that is starving, cannot survive to hunt anything, bugs, rodents whatever, because it lacks the energy to hunt. I will feed these cats for as long as it takes before people start becoming competent caregivers to their animals and start spaying and neutering. As I specialize in abused cats and german shepherd dogs, I have seen the horrible consequences of abuse on poor defenseless animals. This is another reason I do what I do, and I can tell by the direction your posts are taking, that your mind is set on this issue, and nothing anyone would say to you to educate or enlighten you will make one bit of difference to you. So that being said, I now back out of this thread completely.
 

patsy

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Saying that feeding a domestic animal that is hungry is wrong went out with my mother's generation. I remember as a child everyone would say oh don't feed them or more will come. So more will come and all that means is more need help. You can't turn your back on a domestic animal and call yourself an animal lover. I've seen people walk past starving, sickly animals everyday and never raise a hand to help them, not even to pick up the phone to call an animal shelter or a humane group. But like I said before, when people don't care about others, be it people or animals, there is something missing in them. I personally think it's a soul.

People need to realize that ignoring a problem does not make it go away. I ask people all the time what would it be like for you if the Lord decided you were to be born a cat that ended up homeless, cold and hungry and not a well fed human, living in a nice warm comfortable house? Thye don't have a answer or they something stupid like "but I wasn't".
 

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After reading this thread, I feel kinda compelled to ask...

Do any of you do the trap and release thing?

And when does one decide that the next cat is one to many.

I understand the need to rescue, I understand the need to work with ferals, and after having socialized a few, I can tell you, for those that don't know it, it's very hard work.

But when does that law of dimishing returns come into play? By that I mean, it is sooooo easy to loose objectivity about this, I've seen breeders to as well, (BTW not all breeders are the same), you know they love thie cherished cats so much that they just can't bare to get rid of any, so they end up with tons of cats they can't practicly care for, but don't recognize that fact..

*smiles*
Ken
 

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In that the colonies that I managed, I was only able to do so out of the generosity of others. Had Denise not come over on a regular basis and left sacks and sacks of dry food, had the Spay and Neuter Mobile Clinc not been in existence, these cats would of been doomed because no one else seemed to care. Fortunately my paths crossed with some people who did care and over time the ferals were captured and socialized and placed either in farms or homes. It took a long time, and not all the cats were able to be placed, but the majority of them were that had not already succumbed to the hazards of inbreeding and living wild. Eventually other people stepped in to take care of the remaining colonies (i was having severe car problems there for awhile and could not take care of them well enough)

I have a lot more cats than the "average" cat owner, but none of them are unhealthy or unloved. All of them with the exception of Mckenzie and her clan and the new one that I just saw this morning have been spayed and neutered, and all but one has had their shots. I do without a lot of things so these cats can be cared for, and I do that because it is my choice to do so. Simply turning my back on these critters that show up at my door is not an option for me. My father taught me quite early how to care for all critters wild or tame and I get my love of them from him. Many think I am crazy for doing what I do and maybe I am. But I will take this type of craziness over apathy any day. I do not go looking for these critters, they find me.
 

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Ken, the sad fact is they can't all be saved, and TNR is the next best thing. In the days when I was doing rescue, the group I worked with was quite objective and thus accepted the fact that sometimes euthanasia was the kindest, even if the saddest, solution. We never gave up on them just because they were feral, though. If they were young they were captured, tamed and adopted, if they weren't they were TNRd.

I wish TNR would be better accepted. Believe it or not, there are still municipalities, vets, and animals welfare groups who still resist this idea.

If I could, I would take every stray and abused cat in my home. But I already have too many at four (one pregnant rescue became four cats in two weeks!). I no longer actively particpate in rescue work for unavoidable reasons, but I still donate my meager resources to groups that do.
 

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I just now figured out what TNR is......

DUH me

*smiles*
Ken
 

patsy

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Dear Ken:

Us "crazy" rescuers do what we do because leaving an animal to go hungry is not an option for us.

I know I have too many cats, but they live the high life, eating the best food, having the best medical treatment, sleeping in comfortable, clean conditions and getting lots of love. When the day coms that I cannot provide them with all of the above I will get rid of them, but until then they stay. I would like nothing else to have a normal household with a couple of cats and a couple of dogs, but that won't happen because there are too many animals who need help and as long as I'm able I'm going to help them. I just came from Wal-Mart and splurged to buy myself a cheapo outfit. I remember the days when I shopped at Macy's, J.C. Penney and other fine department stores. I thought nothing of spending $100 on a pair of shoes, but now those things are not important anymore. When people criticize the money I spend on the animals I tell them at least what I spend my money on is breathing and living!

I get no help financiallly or otherwise. My husband works 6 days a week to support what I do because he also realizes these animals have no options. We have about $5,000 saved and that's it. My mother always taught us that the Lord will provide. I know that when you are generous and giving it all comes back so I never worry about being without. Right now I'm over my head financially because of the recent illnesses with my own cats so I'm unable to spay or netuer any ferals and there are some out there having babies. However, in the interim I can't stop feeding them because if I do they will suffer. Sure they will find meager scrapes, bugs, etc., but they will suffer hunger day and night and for those mama's having babies, nothing can be more awful for them then to be hungry and having babies to feed.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of why we do what we do.
 

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I think there are two seperate issues here. One is the rescue work that people like Hissy are doing. There, you get the question of how many cats can be taken care of. Numbers can vary from one person or organization to another. Some people can't take care of even one cat, while others can maintain populations of hundreds of cats in the best of coditions. It takes a lot of money, know-how and love but it's certainly possible. This is usually how volunteer rescue organizations are born. When to stop taking in cats depends on each rescue person/organization capabilities - but there is always a limit. That's why they have to keep actively find good homes for cats that are adoptable. I know that the Israeli Cat Society draws the line at 450 cats, because that's as many as their shelter can take care of at the moment. Given more funds, they'd love to increase that number. As it is now, the limit stands at 450. They're always full and they won't accept new cats unless old ones are adopted out.

The second issue is TNR, which is a way to control feral populations. As far as I know, the logic behind TNR is that eventually you get a stable cat population that can be maintained. TNR creates pockets of maintained feral populations where all cats are neutered. New cats rarely join those colonies, as there are already cats filling in that specific local ecological niche. The city of Tel Aviv has an excellent TNR program that started at 1994. Only now they start seeing results in the form of less calls for the animal department to come and deal with "cat problems".
 

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Another reason behind TNR is to maintain the health of the colony and stop the problems caused by inbreeding, which are to numerous to mention here. But suffice to say that if a colony goes unchecked and un-spayed, the new kittens coming in can be blind, and so diseased that their life expectancy is less than a week. It may not be the perfect solution to the overwhelming numbers of ferals in the United States and elsewhere, but it one that has viable options with it. The hardest part about placing ferals, is placing the adults. Everyone is smitten with kittens, but the older ones are the hardest to find good homes for. Everyone who adopts a feral cat of my choosing has to understand first that this is no ordinary lap cat. Some people cannot deal with that at all. They want a head-bumper, lap napper perfect kitty and ferals are not like that, not right off the bat anyway.
 
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gayef

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As a responsible breeder of Siamese cats, I feel I must address some of the "blame" placed on breeders in this thread for the overwhelming number of cats in shelters and cared for by rescue orgs. To make it easy for those participating in this thread possessing simple minds and unswayable opinions, my motto is: IF YOU DON'T RESCUE - DON'T BREED.

I live in Virginia where last July, a new ordinance was put into law. This law makes it mandatory for cat (and dog breeders too, but as this is a Cat Site, we'll stick to the felines for this thread) breeders to register their catteries, register each litter, and register each kitten. The fees for a litter of 4 kittens would be $100 for the cattery registration, $200 for each litter, and $400 for the kittens for a grand total of $700!!! Additionally, each kitten must be microchipped (the nearest vet clinic capable of microchipping is over 150 miles round trip) with the BREEDER'S contact information, not the kitten buyer's. This means that if a kitten buyer is irresponsible, lets the cat outside and animal control picks it up as it goes walkabout, the BREEDER, not the kitten owner, is responsible!!! The fine to the breeder for a kitten buyer allowing a pet to freely roam is $500 for the first offense, $1000 for the second, and if a third time occurs, they not only take away your registrations, you are slapped with criminal charges. What this has accomplished is this: more irresponsible backyard breeders who breed their cats and sell them "under the table", making those of us who DO comply with the law have to pay for those who don't. So, tell me again, please ... HOW does this help the pet overpopulation problem???

Regarding the issue of spay/neuter, there is also a ordinance here that makes it illegal not to spay and neuter your pets (if you are not a registered breeder). If animal control picks up your pet and it isn't neutered, you pay a per diem for each day you neglect to get it done. The fees aren't cheap. Where I live, there is NO low-cost spay/neuter clinic, no public awareness, no means of educating the persons responsible, and certainly, the low-income population isn't going to fork out $100 or more to make certain they are complicent. Instead, they just allow the animal control officers to believe the pet is a stray, and into the truck it goes, sometimes never to be seen or heard from again.

I live on 100 acres in the country, and evidently, there is a big, flashing neon sign somewhere on my property that tells people to "dump your old, sick cats and unwanted kittens here!!" On any given night, there are anywhere from 10 to 30 cats out there fighting, breeding, getting into trash cans, being run over by cars, mauled by other animals, or taking up residence in any one of my outbuildings where the mice and lizards are plentiful. I feed and vet each and every one of them as if they were my own. When animal control shows up here, and they do quite frequently I might add, I always say the same thing -- this one showed up recently, I haven't been able to catch it yet, and just as soon as I do, off it goes to be vetted, neutered, and vaccinated. Fortunately, the AC officers around here all know me, trust me to do the right thing, and have never written me up. (Let me knock on wood real quick so as not to jinx it!!) All of the money to accomplish these things comes out of my pocket.

So, please - those of you whose bad opinions of breeders simply cannot be swayed - remember me the next time you place all breeders in the same basket.

Crawling back underneath my rock for a while,

Gaye
 
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gayef

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Originally posted by Patsy
I have a pedigree Manx...I have a pedigree Snowshoe Siamese...I have a pedigree Persian...
Just out of curiosity, do you know for a fact these are pedigreed cats, or are you simply using that term to denote the appearance of belonging to a certain breed? Just because it walks like a Siamese (or Persian, or Manx or insert the breed flavor of the day here) and talks like one doesn't mean it IS one...just like going to church every day doesn't make you any more a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. By definition, a pedigreed animal is one whose lineage can be traced and documented as well as registered with a cat fancy - such as show cats and those cats who are part of a responsible breeding program. If there is any question as to the lineage, or the documents are not eligible for registry due to one or more non-breed specific cats in the lineage, then it is NOT a pedigreed cat, and the useage of that term is inappropriate here.

Originally posted by Patsy
Breeders want peoople to believe that only ferals overpopulate the streets and shelters. This is a falacy. Irresponsible pet owners and people who think it's alright to keep breeding, for whatever reason, are the reason for the overpopulation problem.
Do we (breeders) really want people to think that? Where do you get that idea? How would it in any conceivable way benefit us as breeders or our cats to have people believe such utter nonsense?

While I agree with you that irresponsible pet owners who possess a throw-away mind-set are indeed a large part of the problem, I have to disagree that "people who think it is alright to keep breeding" play as large a part as you would have us believe, Patsy. If you look at the actual numbers of pedigreed cats (and by pedigreed, I mean actually possessing a registered pedigree with a cat fancy, NOT those cats who may simply APPEAR to belong to a certain breed) in shelters today, you'll find that less than 2% of them are actually pedigreed cats.

Originally posted by Patsy
Most people are under the mistaken notion that just because an animal is pedigree or just because it cost a lot of money, that is insurance that the animal will be taken care of by it's owner. That is so far from the truth. All you have to do is look at the thousands of pedigree rescue groups in business to know this is a lie.
It's better "insurance" than picking up a kitten from someone's cardboard box in front of your local Wal-Mart ... I find that most people tend to value that for which they pay a higher price. While this may not be true for all who purchase a kitten from a breeder, I think it is true of most. In fact, I find that most of the people I have talked to as potential kitten buyers are highly educated, as well as more aware and in touch with the issues of pet overpopulation, and make contributions to animal rescue and related organizations more so and in bigger amounts than other groups of pet owners. Just my experience (as well as a major part of my Purchase Agreement - if you buy a Rosehaven Siamese, you WILL contribute, or you WON'T buy a Rosehaven Siamese - it's really that simple) ... your mileage may vary.

Breed-specific rescue organizations do not discriminate in their choices for intake. For instance, I know of several "Siamese" rescue orgs that will take any cat with blue eyes. Again, we go back to the mentality of "I'll just stand in the garage awhile, and POOF, I'll magically turn into a Lexus sedan". Of the cats I have seen available for adoption through one particular "Siamese" organization, my guess is that the majority of them possess only about as much of the required DNA as a pedigreed Siamese sneezing it on them would throw.

Originally posted by Patsy
Millions of pet cats and dogs will continue to die until those responsible accept the responsiblity and stop blaming it on something or someone else because they are to ignorant or selfish to do otherwise.
Truer words were never uttered, Patsy - but look at it in the proper context. Rescue people do a good thing. I am not disputing that. You are as necessary as oxygen in my mind. But don't get so wrapped up in the heroics that you forget the intended goal. Education is best served with honey on dainty little toast points - not crammed down the throat dry and stale.

My best to you in all your endeavors,

Gaye
 

patsy

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Let's see, the Persian, and the Manx belonged to breeders who thought it was alright to breed them to make money, but then grew tired and threw them in the street. The owner of the persian had the nerve to do a C section on her, then throw her in the street unfixed. Do I have their actual papers, no, but they are definitely of pedigree. The prevous owner of my Border Collie says she's pedigree with papers, however, I see her as a Border Collie mix. Her previous owner let her roam the streets because he didn't want to be bothered.

What about all those kittens you sell as "pet quality". They aren't as recognized by the cat fanciers as the "perfect ones", isn't that correct? What happens to them? Are you one of those breeders who kills the not so perfect or do you sell them for a lesser price. Maybe they the ones I'm finding on the streets starving every night.
By the way, what is a cat fancier? All the people I know who love and adore their pets don't consider themselves a can fancier. What is that, a special term for people who only admire the most beautiful and the best of breed?

I know a mixed breed siamese when I see one. I actually have 4 that I rescued and are up for adoption. Are you saying that a pedigree without his papers in hand doesn't consititute a pedigree. When people throw their pets in the street they don't attach their registration papers to them.

As for breeders I'll say it again, if you're adding to the numbers, you're adding to the overpopulation problem. It's simple math, nothing complicated.

As for my rescue efforts, I never brag about what I do for recognition. I only tell about it to make people realize the need that is out there for thousands of unwanted pets. When people tell me I'm so good and I will be blessed, my only response is, I only want blessings for the animals. Because believe me what I'm getting out of this is an empty bank account, gray hair before my time, and lots of other "wonderful things" I wouldn't have if I didn't have to go out every day and night and care for pets people throw in the street. I would love a normal household and normal life. However, I love all animals, no matter the breed. I don't "fancy" one living creature over another because of the way it looks or acts or matches the furniture.

Don't every think that because someone pays money for an animal, it means more to them. It is just not the case. Either they love and respect it or they don't. You will see more evidence (on the streets) of throwaway pedigree dogs than cats because cats tend to hide. I might add, very expensive dogs.

By the way, I'm proud of what I do. Sorry if that offends anyone. I can walk in an animal shelter, look at the numbers of animals who are going to die and know I'm not responsible for that. I'm part of the solution and I'm very proud of that because it is something to be proud of.

A local humane rescue organization, is often notified of catteries that are unfit, at which time they moved in with authorities to proscecute the breeders and confiscate the cats. One that really stands out is one where they found 59 "pedigree" persians, with eyes missing, due to infection, malnourishment, flea infestation, etc., etc. This breeder advertised as a "responsible" breeder. Just for your information, there are more breeders like this one out there breeding then they are "good" breeders.

Also, I want to add, people who have these so called "catteries" that keep their cats in cages, are nothing more than a feline version of a puppy mill.

I have nothing else to say because no matter what I say it won't change the mindset of those who want to make money and/or act irresponsibly by breeding and the mindset of people like me who want to save animals from dying because the thought of any animal dying because no one wants it, makes them ill.
 

hissy

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and expect anything good to come of it. To clump all breeders together as being "part of the problem" is in my mind's eye creating yet another problem. Not all breeders breed irresponsibly. I know of some who will not allow their "pet quality" cats to be released before they get them spayed and neutered. To say that all breeders who keep cats in cages is similar to a kitty mill, is again causing problems because in thinking like that, you shut your mind off to the possibility that you might be wrong and come off as a zealot which could turn people off.

I have seen a few pedigreed cats in the colonies that I have maintained. Sadly, most of these are Siamese and Persians. Why in the world a responsible owner would allow a pedigree cat outside to escape, is beyond me, but it does happen. I have several Manx's with my group, are they pedigreed? Probably not, but they are a recognizable breed over the common alley or tabby cats. I have had black cats surrendered to me- two of them who were crucified by two very sick 13 year old boys one halloween night several years ago. re black cats pedigreed- no just a recognizable breed.

There are several hot issues on cat boards. Spaying and neutering, keeping inside versus outside cats and declawing are on the top of the list. I personally do not feel that breeders are at fault with the pet over population, because most of them, do breed responsibly. I believe the biggest people at fault are the ones who have cats and who care one whitt about them, let them go outside, not spay or neuter them, barely even feed them and the cat is then forced to find alternate ways to survive. I have spoken to people until I am blue in the face when I find them in front of a store with a box full of kitties and or puppies about spaying and neutering the adults. Most times I am told the people "can't afford to have the cat or dog fixed" and so they bring their darling little children out to add to the "helpless factor" and hasten the departure of the troublesome babies they can ill afford.

Also high on my list for over population of the cat world are the pet shops who normally buy from kitty mills where not only do they not spay or neuter the adults, but hardly ever even maintain the health of them.

There are no easy answers, and I rescue because I see the need for someone to do something. I do it, as stated before because I choose to, I don't expect anything in return and I sacrifice a lot to keep on doing it. I just try not to point fingers at anyone here in this forum, because in just coming here, you show that you have what the people who are at fault do not, a true love and caring for cats.

This has been a good thread with lots of information and food for thought.Please do not allow yourself to succumb to the temptation of adding flames because of the emotional issue and feel you are justified by doing so.
 

patsy

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Hissy:

You're right I won't get into this discusion again. I do get very emotional. You are obviously better versed than I am. I am known to let my mouth fly open before my brain goes into gear.

I will never discuss breeding, or encourage anyone to spay or neuter their pets on these boards again because it's none of my business. As for breeders, they'll do what they want no matter the consequences so there is no use in me getting upset about it.

I'll keep my opinions about the above mentioned to myself so as not to offend anyone.

Patsy
 
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  • #39

gayef

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Still Hittin' 'Em Right Between The Eyes
My GOD! Are you trying to say that there are breeders out there who actually MAKE MONEY????? What a concept! They must be a heck of a lot better at it than I am then, because it costs me well over what I can sell the animals for and I have never made any money from it!

All joking aside, yes, Patsy, there are bad breeders out there who make the rest of us ethical, responsible people who care about the breed we choose to support look like monsters. It sounds like you've had several awful experiences with people who shouldn't be breeding (pets or children in my book, but I'm told my book and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee) but they are. So, what is your answer to the problem??? Load all breeders onto the same bus and then drive them over the nearest cliff to fall to their agonizing deaths below. Hrmmm... that one needs to be re-thunk if you will pardon the slang term.

My "pet quality" animals are altered and microchipped with my contact information before they ever leave my home. No, I don't sell them at a "reduced" rate because I do not sell breeding quality animals to the general public. If an animal is not suitable as a breeding animal, then it will be altered and if possible, placed in a loving home. If I am lucky enough to actually get that rare breeding quality animal, then it only potentially becomes a part of my program. You see, there are many factors in determining which animals are suitable. Young males sometimes don't have a clue, or females will refuse a stud for whatever reason ... so if I place a cat into the program and it isn't working out after several attempts, I alter and place it in a loving home, or keep the animal until it has lived out it's natural life span.

As for your comments about me killing the not so perfect ones, I take serious offense. In my lifetime, I have kept animals which were not suitable to be placed outside of my home here with me for the span of their natural lifetimes - I have ~~NEVER EVER~~ euthanized an animal because it was simply "less than perfect". Now, that being said, I will euthanize when the circumstances legitimately call for it, such as in the event of unsurmountable physical deformity or some other equally devastating viability issue. Bottom line is that I will not allow any animal to suffer.

A "Cat Fancier" in the traditional sense of the phrase is a person who is educated about the breed which they support, owns and possibly even breeds as well as shows cats in that breed and is a member in good standing of a recognized cat registry such as CFA or ACA to name just a couple. However, you don't actually have to breed or show to be considered a fancier. You can appreciate the traits and qualities of any particular breed, support as well as further the education of people about the breed, contribute to the future welfare of the breed and still be considered a fancier. To suggest that fanciers only love the best and most beautiful is just spiteful and downright mean.

As for the cats you are finding starving on the streets, I can assure you beyond any reasonable doubt that I can account for each and every animal I have ever been responsible for bringing into this world, and I strongly resent the implication you have made here. I don't deserve it. There may be some who do, but I am not one of them.

If you know a mixed-breed Siamese when you see one, then you should also know not to call it a pedigreed cat. It is a mixed-breed that resembles a Siamese. That is ALL it is and that is ALL it ever will be. There is a difference and I really don't care how you want to rationalize it, a mixed-breed is NEVER a pedigreed animal. What I am saying, Patsy, is that just because it looks like a certain breed doesn't mean that it is that breed. It may have one or more animals of that breed in it's bloodlines, but just one cat out of the breed renders it a mixed-breed, so the use of the term "pedigreed" is, once again, not appropriately used when describing one.

My dear, how you can possibly say you don't brag about what you do??? You came here and posted globally about what you do. Your posts in this thread alone have simply reeked of patting yourself on the back and making absolutely certain everyone who happens along to read about you knows what a superior person you are. The mere fact that you even mentioned at all how people tell you how good you are and blessed you will be is enough for me to interpret bragging. There are so many others involved in rescue who share your attitudes that you all begin to resemble each other after a while. So, yes, in my opinion, you ARE bragging about it.

I choose to support Old-Style Siamese cats because their numbers are dwindling to the point of near extinction. But as you have so vehemently pointed out, I am a big bad breeder, and as such, you firmly believe that don't really give a rip about them. In your way of thought, I only want to breed them because I can make a poo-pot full of money off of it as a full-time commercial enterprise. Sheesh, Patsy. Get your head out of your butt. I breed them because I don't want to see them go away and never come back! How is that really any different from what you do????

You are entirely right, either someone will value their animals, or they won't. It is up to the breeder to decide whether or not a potential buyer will be one who values the animal or not and bases their decision to place an animal on their feelings about it. I have one specific question that I ask all my potential owners to determine their mindset along these lines, and it only has one right answer. If they don't get it right on the first try, they don't get another chance. It has never failed me.

I am glad you are proud of what you do. You do a good, necessary thing. I too am proud of what I do. I do a good, necessary thing too and who the heck are you to minimize it? You don't know me, you know nothing of my program, you are totally closed to the idea that breeders may even actually be helping in ways that you are too negatively endoctrinated to even fathom.

As for rescuers, I'll say it loud and clear - if you don't recognize that breeders have a legitimate place, then you are an ignorant zealot hell-bent on being right no matter what and I won't waste my time with you. Perform your "simple math" and choose to think it isn't complicated all you want but know right here and now that I won't play with someone who intentionally throws sand in my eyes. On the other hand, if you want to open a meaningful dialogue and debate the issues intelligently with an open mind, then by all means, I'm your girl.

I'm done. You've written me off as a bad guy, and so now playing by your rules, I'm now writing you off as not worth my time. When you can come in and play nice, let me know. I'll be waiting patiently.

Gaye
 
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