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Bill Would Bar Women From Combat Support Units

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
This makes me so mad!!!


POSTED: 8:40 am EDT May 12, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Women soldiers would be barred from combat support units under an amendment added to a defense bill by New York Rep. John McHugh.

Proponents said the measure would affect only a small number of women. But opponents said it would drastically alter the face of the modern army.

McHugh, a Republican, said the current policy doesn't serve women well. He said it places them in a company and treats them as equal until it's time to move forward, and then they have to be left behind.

The House Armed Services Committee's military personnel subcommittee voted along party lines to approve the amendment. The bill goes to the full Armed Services Committee next week.

Soldiers categorized as support are sometimes caught in the line of fire. Thirty-one female soldiers died in the Iraq war by the end of February.

Women are not assigned to combat positions.

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
post #2 of 21
What a bunch of crap. It's bad enough that they don't allow women in combat, but that is rediculous. Women are treated second class enough in the military, why make it worse?
While we're on the subject...

Female soldiers should be sent into combat along with the rest. Aren't they given the same training that the male soldiers are given? Do they think women are incapable of defending themselves and their fellow soliders? Are they afraid that the women will do just as good a job, and thus prove a threat to the male-dominated society we live in? Are we as a society afraid of seeing our mothers and daughters come home maimed and scarred?
Sorry, but if this country is ever really invaded they should give a gun to every mother...there's nothing in nature more vicious and determined than a female protecting her young.
Oh, and the draft being for men only? Yeah. Equally sexist and dumb.
Not that I want to get drafted...it's just rediculous that women are excluded from having to register with selective service in this day and age.
Oooooooooooooooo.... Maybe if our beautiful mothers and pretty daughters WERE in the draft/combat pool, we'd be less likely to rush off to war....
post #3 of 21
I think it is a great idea and I am a woman and was in the military... Maybe I am a wimp but men shouldnt be in combat but reflex wise they are far better suited for it
post #4 of 21
Actually, most research shows that women have better hand-eye coordination than men. Which means they'd do better with weapons, as long as they weren't being told by their culture that they "can't" do it. Just like women were thought to be less intelligent than men, but it was only because women weren't getting the same level of education as men.
post #5 of 21
I'm not really a women's lib girl and I think it's good that they are protecting the women. Not that I don't think women can do it because I know they can.
post #6 of 21
"I'm not really a women's lib girl and I think it's good that they are protecting the women."

Why do women need protection that men don't? The family of a son or husband who is killed will grieve just as much as the family of a daughter or mother, and the children of a father who is killed will suffer just as much as by the loss of a mother. I don't see why the life of a man should be held more cheaply than that of a woman, or conversely, why a woman should be viewed as being so much more "fragile" and in need of protection than a man.
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obi
"I'm not really a women's lib girl and I think it's good that they are protecting the women."

Why do women need protection that men don't? The family of a son or husband who is killed will grieve just as much as the family of a daughter or mother, and the children of a father who is killed will suffer just as much as by the loss of a mother. I don't see why the life of a man should be held more cheaply than that of a woman, or conversely, why a woman should be viewed as being so much more "fragile" and in need of protection than a man.

We DO live in a patriarcal society, after all...we are taught from the time we are little girls that men will protect us, and boys are taught that they need to. There's a biological reason for it in that back in the stone age, we had a hard time doing the hunting and gathering when we were pregnant and watching babies. Of course, we aren't living in the stone age anymore. Also, most of us are smaller than men, and humans have a natural urge to protect things that are smaller than we are. That doesn't mean we can't look out for ourselves or fight...especially when we're given weapons, as women in the armed forces are.

I think it's funny that I'm taller than and just as strong as most men and they still won't let me lift things or carry heavy stuff, crap like that...even ask me if I can reach something. It's even funnier when the guy is like a head shorter than me and has nowhere near as much muscle.
post #8 of 21
While not a Cultural Anthropologist, I believe the basis for this "attitude" goes a bit deeper in our psyche than the current PC climate of "equality" or of any other convienient "handle".

The primary drive and concern of ANY organism is survival, and the obvious effort to insure survival of the human race would be to protect that group of humanity most directly responsible for survival, women.

What we are currently faced with is the conflict of nurture over nature, or modernistic thinking over an inborn instinct that is hard to shake.

The bottom line is that one man can (and often does) service many women, and in nature this is the case, but ONLY the female (at present) can gestate, deliver, and rear offspring.

Having an understanding of the basic drive for any action helps us to make a more informed and equitable decision relevant to the situation, and in this case, since we are no longer in the cave or dark ages, and are in little danger of running short of brood stock, (or of those willing, even eager, to insemnate same) then I see no imminent danger to the species in letting women get their little butts shot at for a while.

The old arguments of women having less body strength and therefore being unable to assist a heavier male soldier, or of women living in proximity to men causing conflict will not stand in the face of the logical solutions of women being assigned to women only groups, with separate housing and separate battle assignments, solving BOTH specious arguments.

The last I heard, the military was a volunteer group, both for men and women, so to perhaps coin a phrase, "If you can't stand the heat, then don't ask for an apron".

FWIW, as a dedicated member of the target shooting sport, I have had many occasions to introduce women to the activity, and almost without exception, both with hand and long guns, women performed better, and quicker than did men.

Leonard
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
Women signed up for service just as the men. They areaware of the possible consiquences just as the men. They are trained to fight and kill just as the men. If a woman wants to put her life on the line and fight for this country more power to them. I couldn't do it. These women want to use the skills they have learned. It's like telling a women lawyer that she can't practice even thought she is just as capible as a man. It is discrimination and it is wrong, not to mention illegal. If this law passes I hope it is over truned by the Supreme Court just like every other law that discriminate against women.
post #10 of 21
Aside from what people are picking up on with the sex discrimination there are other factors that need to be looked at.

Many combat MOS's are sent to the field for weeks and even months at a time. In field there is limited water supplies for bathing. All women (unless on the shot or having had a hyst) get a period. A female needs warm water to bathe with expecially during a T.O.M. Womens bodies are more apt for infections 'down there' then men are. It sounds strange but a lot of women don't know how to properly clean themselves out in the field. Baby wipes don't cut it. Not to mention that when you are in a hazard area and you are driving in the humvee for hours on end, where is a woman supposed to change her tampon or pad?? Do you expect them to do it in the cramped quarters of a tank or humvee in front of all the male soldiers??? Combat male soldiers are PIGS and I mean PIGS!!! Its nothing like telling a female laywer she can't practice. There are hygenic reasons behind the militarys reasoning to keeping women from being in a combat MOS. It is unfortunate that things are like this but I don't see anything horribly wrong with this situation. THere are plenty of other jobs in the military that women could excell in. CID for instance would be an excelent job for a female as well as air defence support. There are many many positions that women could hold that keeps a gun in hand. I don't believe that ALL combat MOS's should be closed to women but I feel that a woman doesn't need to be a grunt or front line.
post #11 of 21
Just to add: In an MOS that is mostly male, adding a female to the mix. What will happen when she and one of the men hit it off? That is a major distraction that you don't need on the job. It can cause jealousy in the ranks and it can really damage the bond between the grunts out in the field. Being in the field is a difficult job and it is hard enough for the grunts to train the fresh cherries out of basic training... women are softer spoken and indeed do need to be treated differently than a man. It would be hard to train a woman. Grunts are hardcore and I mean HARDCORE soldiers. They yell, they cuss, they burp and fart and get totally sloshed... they talk down to lower ranks... the smoke other soldiers... I've seen when a female soldier was yelled at by a higher ranking officer and she cried. You can't deal with that in the field.
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali012281
Just to add: In an MOS that is mostly male, adding a female to the mix. What will happen when she and one of the men hit it off? That is a major distraction that you don't need on the job. It can cause jealousy in the ranks and it can really damage the bond between the grunts out in the field. Being in the field is a difficult job and it is hard enough for the grunts to train the fresh cherries out of basic training... women are softer spoken and indeed do need to be treated differently than a man. It would be hard to train a woman. Grunts are hardcore and I mean HARDCORE soldiers. They yell, they cuss, they burp and fart and get totally sloshed... they talk down to lower ranks... the smoke other soldiers... I've seen when a female soldier was yelled at by a higher ranking officer and she cried. You can't deal with that in the field.

NYC has a lot of female police officers (on the beat, not just desk jobs)...as the song says...If you can make it here, you'll make it anywhere.
post #13 of 21
Frankly, I wouldn't care to be nowhere near combat. If only men are allowed to do it, so be it.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
NYC has a lot of female police officers (on the beat, not just desk jobs)...as the song says...If you can make it here, you'll make it anywhere.
That's a good point and I totally see where you are coming from with that.

I think what I'm trying to say is that basically the male grunts don't want to deal with females and the female needs. Women haven't been in combat mos's very long and it was irritating to the males at first and still is. There are some really super soldiers that just take everything in stride and there really are some super female soldiers that could definatly cut it in the field. But you get the few soldiers that are really nasty... and then there are the female soldiers that are in the combat mos because they didnt know what else to do or they just came into the army for college money... and they whine... and they moan... More often than not that is what men in the field deal with. I'm not saying that a female CAN'T do it... I'm just saying that I can see both sides and that I personally don't think that they should be doing it. Its really bad news to have a huge group of men that haven't seen but one or two females in a few months... some of them hit it off and it will create tension in the ranks. I don't know. Its a yes and no. I completely support women in the army but I think that there are jobs that men are better suited for than women. Combat MOS's aren't popular with women so there aren't many in them. Grunts pride themselves in their 'brotherhood' and that is exactly what they mean. A woman enters and it throws the ballance off. (So says my grunt neighbor). I just want to restate that I am not against women being in combat just not in the line of fire. I can understand why the bill is being proposed and things have been like this for over ten years where women are not to be grunts or front line. I see both sides and I'm just trying to show a side that many people will try to ignore.
post #15 of 21
Thread Starter 
And I thought the article would piss me off
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali012281
That's a good point and I totally see where you are coming from with that.

I think what I'm trying to say is that basically the male grunts don't want to deal with females and the female needs. Women haven't been in combat mos's very long and it was irritating to the males at first and still is. There are some really super soldiers that just take everything in stride and there really are some super female soldiers that could definatly cut it in the field. But you get the few soldiers that are really nasty... and then there are the female soldiers that are in the combat mos because they didnt know what else to do or they just came into the army for college money... and they whine... and they moan... More often than not that is what men in the field deal with. I'm not saying that a female CAN'T do it... I'm just saying that I can see both sides and that I personally don't think that they should be doing it. Its really bad news to have a huge group of men that haven't seen but one or two females in a few months... some of them hit it off and it will create tension in the ranks. I don't know. Its a yes and no. I completely support women in the army but I think that there are jobs that men are better suited for than women. Combat MOS's aren't popular with women so there aren't many in them. Grunts pride themselves in their 'brotherhood' and that is exactly what they mean. A woman enters and it throws the ballance off. (So says my grunt neighbor). I just want to restate that I am not against women being in combat just not in the line of fire. I can understand why the bill is being proposed and things have been like this for over ten years where women are not to be grunts or front line. I see both sides and I'm just trying to show a side that many people will try to ignore.
I see your points as well, but I would say to the grunts, grow up and get with it soldier! Women are 52% of the population, actually 53% in NYC. Just like the world spins, so does the world change. A lot of the same arguments were used (throwing off the balance, etc) when the military was segregated, and when police forces and firemen were all male.
post #17 of 21
I am fixing to join the military... and if they dont want to send me into combat.... ooooooooooookay!

You dont have to tell me twice. And it is not that i cant do it, because i personally feel i could seriously kick some a$$

But like beth said... there is nooooooo way in hell I would do any of my female things in front of any male soldier. Plus i would not be able to keep to my pristine cleanliness, which is very important.

Agreed, male soldiers are PPPPIIIIIGGGGSSSS! Especially ones that have been in a combat zone for a while, away from girls and are HornY. They think they are being cute, but it really breaks you down.

Plus, again, girls that join just for college money, are usually babies! Big whiny babies! And they think that pulling the 'i'm helpless,will you do it for me' act is going to work. When you work in the office, it might, but in a combat zone, that is annoying as hell. You have a zillion other things to think about and do.

My husband tells me stories about when he gets deployed. Girls over there are what they call "Desert Goddess". And he explained to me, it doesnt matter how nasty, ugly, whatever, that the female is, all that matters is that she is a female, and she is constantly hit on and degraded.

In my husbands squadron, there was actually a girl who was recently sent home, because magically there were hundreds and hundreds of dollars being deposited into her account besides her pay... she was getting paying for oral sex...

My neighbor was telling me about the girl who lived in the house before us... she had 3 kids! All from DIFFERENT MEN! While she was deployed, to DIFFERENT locations, she was doing the naughty, and she got pregnent 3 times. She is still not married.

That is not a distration that soldiers need... EVERY woman on here and the men, KNOW HOW MEN ARE! After a few months of not being around women, you cant help but be distracted and excited by the first woman you see.

And if you are in the feild, staring at the girl next to you firing the gun at your enemy and fantasizing, your gunna get killed.
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mferr84
I

My neighbor was telling me about the girl who lived in the house before us... she had 3 kids! All from DIFFERENT MEN! While she was deployed, to DIFFERENT locations, she was doing the naughty, and she got pregnent 3 times. She is still not married.

That is not a distration that soldiers need... EVERY woman on here and the men, KNOW HOW MEN ARE! After a few months of not being around women, you cant help but be distracted and excited by the first woman you see.

And if you are in the feild, staring at the girl next to you firing the gun at your enemy and fantasizing, your gunna get killed.
Since I have little to no experience with military men, I'll have to take your word for it. If most men in the military act as you describe, then I have no use for the lot of them. Being far from home is no excuse to act like you described. My brother and the other men I know well would never act in this fashion.
And the US worries about gays in the military? Maybe we should be glad not to be apart of that lot.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
Since I have little to no experience with military men, I'll have to take your word for it. If most men in the military act as you describe, then I have no use for the lot of them. Being far from home is no excuse to act like you described. My brother and the other men I know well would never act in this fashion.
And the US worries about gays in the military? Maybe we should be glad not to be apart of that lot.
well, i know my husband would never act like this either, even if he was single, he just isnt like that... neither would alot of the married guys i know...
most of it is just single guys that are goofing off, and yes, when you get a group together, they can be just awful, and they know it...

and the military knows it and they will be punished for it if the wrong person hears about or sees anything

and i dont know your brother, or the other guys you are talking about and i dont want to pass judgement, and please dont think i am implying anything, but i just adore some of my husbands friends, and when my hubby gets on the phone and tells me some of the things that they go do, i am speechless and really astonished... from the perspective that i know them, i couldnt never even imagine them being degrading or going to far with something like this, but it does happen, even to good guys

and what makes this whole situation even sadder, is that there are girls that request to go over there, because they know that they will get a lot of attention when they get there, and they dont really get any here
post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
Ok I have to disagree with the phrase "military men are pigs" Not all of them are.... I have a friend in the army and he's one of my best friends.

Bottom line.... women join the military just like the men, they know what could happen, they know the risks, they are trained to fight. It seems to me like an awlful waste of these ladies' time and the government's money to train them and not utilize that training.
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by eburgess
Ok I have to disagree with the phrase "military men are pigs" Not all of them are.... I have a friend in the army and he's one of my best friends.
I disagree too... my husband is not a pig, nor or a lot of the guys i know... but unfortunatley i also know some that make me sick to my stomach when i hear them talking... they are pigs. I dont think anyone said all military men are pigs, we are only talking about certain ones... and they, are deserving of a title much worse than pig.
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