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long-haired red female

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Hello everyone. I'm fairly new to this site. I first signed up as I was looking for answers to a preggo-cat we adopted from the humane society, but have since grown fond of all the different forums.

I have always had a fascination of genetics, but just recently started those of the cat. Boy am I hooked. Anyway, no breeding here, just virtual situations. However, when we found out our newly aquired cat was already preggers, I found this the perfect time to introduce my daughters to the punnet square :-) and play with the probabilities myself!

At any rate, my question is this? Our Willow, is a long-haired red tabby [faint- markings on face and extremities]. No white.

BUT she has this one tiny black peppered 'birthmark' between her shoulder blades the size of a pea. It is very, very faint. An average on-looker may never even notice she had it. Is she still considered a red? Or would this *bit* of black throw her in the tortie category? I can take pictures if need-be.

Just wondering... so far we're betting her litter will be a bunch of red males and tortie girls... Unless of course if daddy was orange as well... or white...

thanks for the advice! It's just for fun, but you know...

Marian
mom to one 100-lb newf-baby, and the newly aquired preggo-Willow. Oh! and 5 non-fur kids
post #2 of 19
Ummmm.. not torite, because torties have 3 colors, But if it is black, then she isn't all red.. could (might) even be considered bi-color. What color are her paw pads?? Make sure and check them all... You might also want to check her skin under the fur of the dark spot, it's prossible that it's dark as well.

aaaaaaand, just to make it more difficult for ya solid white really isn't a color, it actually masks the real color. For instance, we have an odd eyed white that consistantly throws red tabbies, so we know he's a red tabby under all that white.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagyne
Ummmm.. not torite, because torties have 3 colors, But if it is black, then she isn't all red.. could (might) even be considered bi-color.
Hmmm, I thought tortie was the mix of two colors and that calico was when the white piebald gene was thrown in to create the third color.

Like I said, I am just beginning the genetics of cats, but they are all so interesting! And yes, I do understand that white masks all other colors.

This is why I was trying to figure out if Willow was a true Red OO, or a 'bicolor' Oo....

I understand that the (W-) white masking gene is dominant to all others. As I understand it, your White cat that throws off the occasional orange kitten would then be heterozygous White. or Ww and when the dominant white gene is suppressed her O gene would shine through (or not be masked)!

This much I understand. This is why I was curious as to whether Willow would be considered Homozygous Red or not. I havent checked the skin underneath. But as I said the spot is the size of a pea and fairly faint. I took a pic of it last night but am trying to figure out how to post the pic. Also, I noticed today that all her whiskers are white, save one lone-black one... I dont know if this has anything to do with the pricew of beans but thought I would throw that in there.

Anyway, I'll have to hunt her down and look at her skin underneath. Thanks for your help, most definitely!

Marian ~ momma to Chewbacca the Newf-baby, Willow the preggo-cat, a litter of 5 non-fur kids
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
I'm sorry, I really am not trying to contradict you, but like I said, I am just learning about the cat-genetics and am trying not to get easily confused.

I did a brief search on the net and this is what I found:

Tortoiseshell: A coat pattern typically marked by both black and red fur in deep coats or blue and cream fur in dilute coats.

Calico: A coat pattern with patches of white and more prominent red and black or cream and blue markings.

Bicolor: A two-colored coat pattern composed of white and patches of another color, usually on the back, tail, and head.

That being said, I checked her skin under her "birthmark" and it is white. I think I read somewhere that a calico or tortie's skin would lighten and darken with the fur. Do I have this right?

At any rate. It doesn't really matter as it's all virtual and I'm just playing around trying to guess what her kittens will be if her father is a certain type. But as I play, I assume my Willow is : wwOOll

unless that spot throws it all off and she really isn't homo-z.

Thanks for your time! I really do appreciate the guidance!

Marian
post #5 of 19
No Worries!!! Actually you are right Torties do only have 2 colors...BUT, it will appear as 3, here's why:

You'll always have a major color & red or cream, the red or cream coloration has a tendency to come in a tabby pattern, therefore you have the major color and a light & dark red or A dilute major color and a dark & light cream.

A calico will have the same coloration (2 colors) BUT the groups of color are separated by sections of white.

Hope that helps
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
"No worries"

one of my fave catch phrases from 50 First Dates

Thank you very much for clearing that up for me!!! I was hoping I wasnt slipping on all my reading - ha!

I've been working with a TCS mentor to try and post pictures, but in the meantime I've uploaded the picture to a Kodak Sharing site. The link is:
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePh...40_66120093906

hope that works.

Thanks again for your help. I'd be interested in knowing what you think. OO or Oo?
post #7 of 19
Our Punky (in my sig) is a tortie. Here's some more info that I found for you. Ken (Imagyne) is correct. I'm still confused by tortie colors, piebald patterns, and genetics!

TORTOISESHELL-AND-WHITE (CALICO) CATS

The white patches in tortie-and-white (tricolour, calico) cats is caused by the piebald spotting gene discussed in Beautiful Bicolours. This is a semi-dominant gene with very variable expression ranging from nearly all white to nearly all coloured with only a few white hairs. The gene affects the embryo cells which will become pigment-producing skin cells. These cells are initially formed along the "neural crest" - the embryo's backbone area - and migrate to all over the body during formation of the skin. Where these pigment producing cells fail to get in position before the skin is fully formed, there will be areas of skin which lack pigment producing cells i.e. white areas. White areas are usually the areas furthest from the cat's backbone - paws, belly, chest and chin - these areas take longest to reach.

One effect of white spotting in tortoiseshell cats is to change the pattern from brindled to patched. Tortie cats with little or no white tend to have brindled coats. However, the more white there is, the more the black and white will also be separated out into patches instead of being intermingled. The phenomenon of tortie-and-white cats having better defined patches of colour is familiar to most cat lovers.

In the developing embryo, the pigment forming cells migrate from the neural crest. If the "migration theory" is right, cells which activate O (red) and those which activate o (black) appear to migrate at the same speed, leading to a brindled pattern. If the embryos also inherit the gene for white spotting, the fur develops as patches of colour. The bigger the white areas, the bigger the and better defined the separate patches of black and red. The presence of the white spotting means fewer pigment producing cells and less competition between them as they migrate into position. One or two cells reach an area and these multiply in situ to form a patch of colour (a clonal patch).

http://www.artcats.com/calico.html
______________

Punky is a brindled "dark" tortie, but she has a cream (not white) colored patch on her neck with another patch of a light peachy orange below it. Her one paw is very orangy and she has some cream on another. It is so confusing as her fur is brindled on her back and sides, orange and a lighter peachy color with black. You can see what looks like cream in her fur, but no white! I am still confused by the genetics of torties.

Imagyne (Ken), I know that females are torties, but does this color pattern tend to run in smaller cats, like the Munchkins you breed? There seems to be a gene pool of smaller, petite feral cats in our neighborhood. Punky has such tiny ears trimmed in black and a petite body. I've seen some other feral cats in our yard like her; a very petite orange tabby with tiny outlined ears, another tortie, and now this adorable petite white kitten/cat with a geyish cap and soft greyish brown large patches. How can you tell if your cat could be a Munchkin/mixed?
post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thank you Caterpillar and Ken!! I love genetics and the cat just proves to challenge the mind

I simply fell in love with Willow the day we found her at the pound, and I literally had to sit on the floor and pout until my daughter's swayed their decisions my way

Yes, the tortie gene, sure does complicate things some. And I still have much to learn.

I'm pretty sure I have the piebald gene down, the White and non-white. Black/brown, dilution.... the tabby still gets me cuz I'm not totally positive on all the patterns, but for a non-breeder, I'm getting there

And then there is the little pea-sized spot between the shoulder blades :-)

I guess we may know more when her kits are born! But, personally, I'm hoping for a black daddy with the piebald gene! Hopefully [at least] carrying long-hair!!!

LMBO -- thanks again guys! Marian and the birthmarked-Willow
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
I forgot to point out... the "birthmark" is on the right of the picture, right smack in the middle. Sorry -- this is the best shot I could get of it. The next pic, where you can see my hubby holding her, shows the location slightly.

Again - the skin underneath is the same as the rest of her.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowseP...040_66120093906
post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Ta Da!

After much help from the WONDERFUL mods on TCS, I have been 'schooled' on how to post my pics.

Now! what do you think?



her pea-sized mark is on the right of the pic, just at the middle.

many thanks to DawnofSierra, Ryan and KittenKrazy!
post #11 of 19
This scenario is oh so familiar!

We are the proud breeders of a most beautiful Red Mackeral Tabby Bicolor Exotic Female. HOWEVER he has a BIG black spot on his forehead, he was born with it and pulling the black hairs out just made it grow bigger! His father is a Blue Bicolor Exotic and his mother is a Tortoishell Bicolor Persian. He has always been a mystery to the cat judges here in NZ.

How long before she has kittens?
post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellingtonCats
This scenario is oh so familiar!

We are the proud breeders of a most beautiful Red Mackeral Tabby Bicolor Exotic Female. HOWEVER he has a BIG black spot on his forehead, he was born with it and pulling the black hairs out just made it grow bigger! His father is a Blue Bicolor Exotic and his mother is a Tortoishell Bicolor Persian. He has always been a mystery to the cat judges here in NZ.

How long before she has kittens?
Sam we suspect this weekend, but I am getting so impatient! Thought maybe last night was going to be the night, but woke up kittenless again this morning

According to our vet, she is due around this weekend... but we didnt have her radiographed so this is probably a big guess. I started to feel the babies move 2 weeks ago on Easter Sunday; however never really tried to feel for them before that day. Also we think she may have lost her mucous plug sometime Friday as we noticed she had some red crusted around her 'girls parts' that night.

She really has been following me around, wanting to be on the same floor as me, but still away from all the commotion. And she will flop over to have me rub her belly which is so unlike her.

Anyway, I really am anxious to see what colors the kittens are. This tiny black spot has me curious as to whether she is a true red or not. As I understand it, if she is a true red everyone of her kittens will either be red or tortie (or variations thereof) unless of course the dad was all-white.

I guess time will tell!
post #13 of 19
From looking at her pictures, I am certain your female is red tabby and not tortie.

I believe for a female cat to be red tabby, both her sire and dam were red or red factored (mom could have been a red tabby, tortie or tortie point, dad could have been red or red point).

If a female herself is red tabby and not tortie, doesn't that mean she is homozygous red? I believe that means ANYTHING she throws will be red factored (i.e. tortie, red, tortie or red point [if both parents are carrying pointed - unlikely]). Unless of course, sire was white, and then 50% (average) will be white masking red factor.

To confuse everyone further, if both parents are also carrying dilute, you could also get blue-cream tortie females and cream tabby males. Cream being the dilute of red, and blue being the dilute of black. You could also get torbies or patched tabby females (depending on which association you get your color descriptions from
post #14 of 19
She is not a tortie. She might have a little birthmark, but she is a red tabby cat.
post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
As you guys may well know I just adopted her from the pound 4-weeks ago tomorrow, so I don't know what her parents are. But yes, in order to get a red female the father would be red and the most must be at least a tortie (or variations thereof)

I am pretty confident that Willow is indeed a true homozygous (OO) red, but that little bitty part of black threw a tiny bit of doubt in my mind. I've only just recently started in on cat genetics. But man am I in love!

Anyway.... if I didnt find any answers here, I was certain her kittens would possibly confirm it. Though I know a carrier could throw 1000 kits with the dominant genotype before the recessive eventually shows, but if she were to have [say] a black cat then I would definitely know. Ha! I had a dream that she actually did have a litter of MULTIPLE colors. I swear, I've been reading too much internet!

Anyway, thanks for writing guys!! No matter what, she's a gorgeous beauty who's won my heart!
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianjela
Sam we suspect this weekend, but I am getting so impatient! Thought maybe last night was going to be the night, but woke up kittenless again this morning

According to our vet, she is due around this weekend... but we didnt have her radiographed so this is probably a big guess. I started to feel the babies move 2 weeks ago on Easter Sunday; however never really tried to feel for them before that day. Also we think she may have lost her mucous plug sometime Friday as we noticed she had some red crusted around her 'girls parts' that night.

She really has been following me around, wanting to be on the same floor as me, but still away from all the commotion. And she will flop over to have me rub her belly which is so unlike her.

Anyway, I really am anxious to see what colors the kittens are. This tiny black spot has me curious as to whether she is a true red or not. As I understand it, if she is a true red everyone of her kittens will either be red or tortie (or variations thereof) unless of course the dad was all-white.

I guess time will tell!
How exciting! Can't wait to hear what the outcome is.
post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
Just so you know... Willow had her kits. 2 orange boys (one with white) and 2 girls, one tortie, one cali.

...and know we know!
post #18 of 19
Incidentally, it's been discussed about tortie males that are not sterile-

usually the tortie males are actually red males but the red is extremely dark to the point that visually it's black on places?? I remember reading that once.
so I suspect the same can be said of your girl, her black is actually just a really saturated red-from the poto it actually looks a bit red anyhow.. if you were really interested, you could grab one of the dark hairs and have it under a microscope and the shaft would be reddish, or, look at it by holding it up to a really bright light, and it may shoot off red

I hope this helps!
post #19 of 19
Congrats!
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