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Another School Shooting - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
Hitler was a charismatic leader, an inspirational speaker (i.e. he did know how to inspire people to action), and also a sociopath, drug addict, and obsessed with the occult and power (and in particular, how the occult could increase his power). He was a megalomaniac. I agree with Marge in the sense that anyone who can look at Hitler with any kind of awe and inspiration after knowing what his ends were makes me cringe. Jim Jones was also a charismatic leader and inspirational speaker...but people don't look at him with awe and inpiration now, knowing what happened in Guayana.

I'm taking a leap here, but I think what Marge is trying to say is that the distance from WWII is, in general, getting large enough that younger generations view it in much the same sense as we view the Civil or Revolutionary Wars. They are interesting to study, but there isn't a personal connection for the majority of people. Of course there will be exception, such as Leli has pointed out as her own personal experience. But the fact that the WWII veterans are dying at a rate of hundreds or thousands a day now simply because of their age, the people personally affected by it are becoming fewer and fewer.

What does this have to do with this kid? Well, because the people affected by his actions are not prevalent, Hitler is more and more becoming idealized. The horror of what he put not only the Jewish/Gypsy/disabled/retarded people through, but also his own people through, is becoming lost in the historical "facts and figures". So there are people who are disillussioned with society today and look to the past for ideals, and find there Hitler and Stalin. And their ideology and people who subscribe to it are readily found on the internet, and the results, such as Columbine are plastered all over the media for years (think it was bad nationwide? Try living here! It was on nearly every local news broadcast for at least 2 years, at least once a week). All of that plays into the vulnerability of a kid who is lost, bullied, angry, and hopeless...regardless of how he dresses or what music he listens to.
Not a leap, very well put.

I fear the spirit of America is getting lost in this too. The spirit of ALL people having a chance at the dream, even gypsys etc Since it's becoming too distant a memory how easily it can be lost. Kids today only know the high tech America. Not the spirit of it.
post #32 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Not a leap, very well put.

I fear the spirit of America is getting lost in this too. The spirit of ALL people having a chance at the dream, even gypsys etc Since it's becoming too distant a memory how easily it can be lost. Kids today only know the high tech America. Not the spirit of it.
This may be so, but think of how many "kids today" have been said throughout the centuries? It's always there. Regardless of the generation. It's just that things change and evolve, and the older generations tend to feel that the current generation has lost something. Most fail to realize that these same thoughts were thought about them for one thing or another.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by katspixiedust
This may be so, but think of how many "kids today" have been said throughout the centuries? It's always there. Regardless of the generation. It's just that things change and evolve, and the older generations tend to feel that the current generation has lost something. Most fail to realize that these same thoughts were thought about them for one thing or another.
Now that I am older I see where when my Parents said such thing they were right. Some of the lost things are really important! That is why the younger generation does need to listen.
post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by katspixiedust
This may be so, but think of how many "kids today" have been said throughout the centuries? It's always there. Regardless of the generation. It's just that things change and evolve, and the older generations tend to feel that the current generation has lost something. Most fail to realize that these same thoughts were thought about them for one thing or another.
Well put.
post #35 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Now that I am older I see where when my Parents said such thing they were right. Some of the lost things are really important! That is why the younger generation does need to listen.
I think what's making us "younger generation" members defensive is this idea that we bring nothing to the table. You're painting us as ignorant and ungrateful, which we are not. I think we, as a civilization, would have a better chance of resolving some of the issues that worry you, indeed all of us, if the older generation would also be required to listen, instead of just us "kids". I don't think a monologue can ever been as effective as a dialogue. But to have a dialogue, BOTH parties have to have a certain level of open-mindedness and respect for one another.
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leli
I think what's making us "younger generation" members defensive is this idea that we bring nothing to the table. You're painting us as ignorant and ungrateful, which we are not. I think we, as a civilization, would have a better chance of resolving some of the issues that worry you, indeed all of us, if the older generation would also be required to listen, instead of just us "kids". I don't think a monologue can ever been as effective as a dialogue. But to have a dialogue, BOTH parties have to have a certain level of open-mindedness and respect for one another.
I apologize if I was rude, but you must really realize just how upsetting it is for me to hear some of this. I work with teens and 20 somethings and I always learn from them, they bring wisdom to my life all the time. However, if one ever said one thing about Hitler being anything other than nuts, I would say the same thing.
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Your generation is so often untouched by things that happened in the world during those times and take only a distant intellectual interest. Try reading memoirs of people who lived through the distaster than Hitler created....
I don't think we're "out of touch" we have a differnt veiw of seeing it. Being so far removed from it the research is more inline with the truth rather then rumors. We know now that Himmler was the one incharge with everything and Einchrich was not the monster he was made out to be. I think you, and everyone would benifit from taking a college course or 2 on the subject. Or atleast read the new research on it. I'm not going to argue with the experts.
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I apologize if I was rude, but you must really realize just how upsetting it is for me to hear some of this. I work with teens and 20 somethings and I always learn from them, they bring wisdom to my life all the time. However, if one ever said one thing about Hitler being anything other than nuts, I would say the same thing.
I'm assuming that by the way you said that, none of them have ever said he was anything but nuts? Perhaps they haven't said anything about him. Either way, I think the point here is that they, like most of us, more than likely wouldn't say anything positive about his leadership. Like I said before, there are always those who will say things that seem ludicrous, like the American's I've heard say the people killed in 9/11 deserved it, but by no means is that the thought of even the small majority.

Believe me, I understand that the younger generation does "need to listen." But if yours didn't, my brother's didn't, my grandparent's didn't...no one can expect the current generation and those future generations too. It's all simply a cycle.
post #39 of 46
Sorry, I had to say it, because that's exactly what has happened. For those of you who are interested in Hitler, I would recommend "Downfall", a German film which was nominated for the best foreign-language film Oscar for 2004. The 60th anniversary of Germany's defeat is fast approaching (early May), so I would expect a fair number of documentaries on Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, and WWII in general.
Marge, in one post, expressed concern about the rise of neo-Nazism in Germany. I live in Germany, and would describe the situation as follows: Neo-Nazi parties like the NPD (National Party of Germany) and DVU (German People's Union) have gained seats in eastern German municipal governments, and in the case of the NPD, managed to get a few seats in Saxony's state legislature. Many cities in eastern Germany have unemployment rates of 20%to 25%, comparable to those in Weimar (i.e., post-WWI, pre-Hitler) Germany, which may explain the situation. What's heartening is that whenever these idiots demonstrate, they're far outnumbered by people protesting their views and very existence. The German Bundestag (parliament) just passed a law prohibiting neo-Nazi marches near "places of historical interest", including Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, very close to the new Holocaust Memorial. Since Germany has laws against symbols, speeches, music, etc., that "incite hatred", I doubt that the neo-Nazis have a chance. Let me put it this way: Germans of all ages are paranoid about Nazism. The Ku Klux Klan would be banned here.
As a middle-aged teacher (47) who spends most of her day with students 17 and over, I can understand the "generation gap". I used a text about Chernobyl with one of my classes last week, and found that none of the kids had conscious memories of the disaster (no surprise). That was a "red letter day" in my life, as was "Three Mile Island", but I can hardly expect my students to know the details, let alone have any kind of emotional reaction. My 80-year-old father-in-law brought some onions over this evening, and asked me who Marilyn Manson was, obviously due to newspaper reports about the latest school massacre, and when I told him Manson was today's Alice Cooper, his reply was, "Okay, that makes it clearer." Every generation has its own experiences, and it isn't "right" to expect other generations to put the same emphasis on events that your own generation does, although it's understandable.
post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I apologize if I was rude, but you must really realize just how upsetting it is for me to hear some of this. I work with teens and 20 somethings and I always learn from them, they bring wisdom to my life all the time. However, if one ever said one thing about Hitler being anything other than nuts, I would say the same thing.
I was in no way trying to dispute the fact that he was obviously a very disturbed individual - a nut, if you like. I only disagreed with the statement that he was not a leader.
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leli
I was in no way trying to dispute the fact that he was obviously a very disturbed individual - a nut, if you like. I only disagreed with the statement that he was not a leader.
I personaly don't think ranting and yelling is a good leader, I am sorry. Nor is making people march to your tune, great leaders just empower their followers.
post #42 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I personaly don't think ranting and yelling is a good leader, I am sorry. Nor is making people march to your tune, great leaders just empower their followers.
Ok, but my point is that Hitler fits the dictionary definition of a leader and is therefore a leader....by definition.
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leli
Ok, but my point is that Hitler fits the dictionary definition of a leader and is therefore a leader....by definition.
Of course he was a leader, but someone here was saying he fit the description of a good leader cause they say he was charismatic, took strong stances. I disagree.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Of course he was a leader, but someone here was saying he fit the description of a good leader cause they say he was charismatic, took strong stances. I disagree.
Alright, so what we're disagreeing on here is the use of the word "good". When I say he was a good leader, you're taking it to mean that I think he was a positive influence or inspired in some way that your idea of a "good leader" (you mentioned FDR) would, which I don't. What I'm actually trying to say is that he was able to lead an entire country (albeit, not in a good way and not to a good end), which makes him good at leading , though his methods were those of a dictator (a crazy murderous one, I know). I say, lets just leave it because we're clearly arguing over semantics.
post #45 of 46
Napoleon was a good leader - his armed forces would have followed him anywhere, and did. And he led France to defeat and destruction.
post #46 of 46
when i was 14, i sat in class while we were learning about Anne frank.
(surely some of you may know about her!!!!!!!!)
I sat there and i could visualise how she lived and seeing pictures of germany made me have chills down my spine. A year and a half later i landed here and it wasnt exactly the view i thought it was since nearly everything had been rebuilt in frankfurt but... There is this dull sense in the air even if its sunny.

Anyway, Bens step family were in the war and his grandfather has such great stories to share. He says that hitler was a good leader not for killing people but he did have alot of intelligence untill he went over board.
They had their house searched every day, This town was bombed and he told us all of the spots, after that evening we went to all of the places around here. One of them was just in the next street.
I'm amazed that his house didnt get bombed because it was so close to him.
As far as i've heard
THERE ARENT that many Nazis on the west side.
And the younger generation doesnt support hitler or any sort, atleast not around here.
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