Another School Shooting

Horribly tragic.

The similarities between Eric and Dylan (Columbine) and this kid having ties to Neo-Nazi ideals is striking. (April 20 was chosen because it is Hitler's birthday.)

This whole neo nazi thing is getting too much fascination. It's apparently getting more and more followers in Germany. I just had a conversation with a man who was just in Germany and was telling me about it.You striek up conversations with some young people and they just think Hitler was misunderstood. I'm not saying all but it's scary.

Oh great now the schools are going to flip again. Do I hear school uniform debate raising again????

After Columbine my school board took up the issue of school uniforms for a middle class mostly white high school. One parent suggested the colors to be green and navy blue, not the school colors red and black. Of course it was rejected, not only by students but parents too. The arguement we had was if the school would enforce the dress code to all students, not just on certain classes we wouldn't be talking about it. The thing is they would enforce it on the seniors and some juniors, not sophmores or freshmen. That really pissed us upperclassmen off. The rules were no bare middrifts, everyday the some freshmen girls would come into school with belly shirts on and nothing would be said or done. If a senior would have even worn a tank top, cause god forbid we show alittle shoulder, we would be sent home to change.

It's a horrible thing that happened, but with all the security measures in place how could thins have happened again?? He had to have told someone about his plan.

Actully Hitler was a very fasinating person. Not to be idolised at all, of course. As with all historical figures good and bad, it takes research to have some understanding of them. Hitler was a phycsopath. But he focused his attention on leading a country. Not for good either in many ways. He was the right man at the right time for Germany, told them what they wanted to hear. He told them who was to blame for thier troubles, and began to rebuild what the allies had taken away, and to rebuild Germen pride. and he did that. His way of doing it was not very pleasent. If you take away the whole World War II thing Hitler wasn't a bad leader. He was able to rally a impoverished nation to have pride in themselves, he spoke every well and was very confident.
There's a quiz out there that asks you what are the qualities of a good leader, I heard most people who too that quiz choose the qulitites that Hitler had.

I'm not singing is praises by any means. I'm studing the Germany and the 3rd Reich this semester. This subject has come up often.

I am from Minnesota...and it is indeed a horrible travisty. I can not imagine what one is thinking when they bring a gun to school and do this...and I have to wonder why does no one see the warning signs?

I saw the coverage on the news tonight. It looked like the kid had round burns all over his arms? They only showed photos of him at 8 years old and younger, have to wonder why that was? They plastered columbine's killers all over the news the day it happened-

Hitler was a thug and a failed artist. Don't over do him PLEASE.
Yes he maninpulated a confused society who by the way were raised to obey particularly men. he lied to them to get them feeling good about themselves. Teh lowest kind of leader.

Ugh, this generation is too far away from WW2. It's scaring me!

How terrible! I saw the CNN interview of Mr. Jourdain. He said it's a small community where everybody knew each other. How could such a thing happen? Didn't anybody care enough to notice the boy had problems? I don't understand this!

I never said he was a good person. Historians argue over if he was truly insane or not. Truth is you could spend years studing this man and still not understand just why he would order the murder of millions. I have read his memiors. It seems to me in my opnion that he wanted the best for Germany. We will never know just what was going through that head of his. I know many Phycologists who would love to figure that out. The society was not raised to obey him. Societies are not made up of one age group so that would have been impossible. Yes children learned what he wanted them to learn, but the general public was either too scared to speak up, agreed with the man, or had no opinion either way. He was a good leader. Sadly his leadership lead to the death of millions of innocent people.
I find your last comment distrubing. If "this generation" didn't care, why would we study Hitler? You don't give "this generation" enought credit.

FYI in Germany it is illegal to wear or show the swastic, or anything associated with the 3rd Riech

I always thought it strange that my grandfather, who fought for the US in WW2 and hated Hitler, always had a little bit of awe in his voice when he said that in Germany during that time, every person was given a shirt, pants, and shoes, and that when they wore out, they would be replaced for free. (Dunno if that's true or not.) I think one of the things that attracts people to neo-Nazi thinking is that there is an underlying message of taking care of your own. That even the government will watch your back for you. I don't agree with it, but I can still see how some see it as being attractive.

I always cringe when I hear about school shootings. That kid had probably been crying for help for years, and it only fell on deaf ears. What a society we live in.

And it's going to be so hard for the "misfits" all over again. Back when Columbine happened, they released an official watch list for signs of kids who might try the same thing. You wanna know something scary? I fit the bill of everything on that check-list. The only reason I escaped the persecution (because that's exactly what it was) at my school was because I was friends with the "right" people. The "wrong" people were picked on by the faculty and staff, and three kids dropped out because of it. And I never thought of killing people even though according to the literature I should have.

I am not even making a moral judgement, I am saying he was a lousy leader. Period. Look what he destroyed and in such a short time.. Lousy planning, stupid ideas.

He wanted the best for his ego and need to control (remember he wanted to be an artist first and foremost, he didn't get accepted so tried on his dictator hat...)

Your generation is so often untouched by things that happened in the world during those times and take only a distant intellectual interest. Try reading memoirs of people who lived through the distaster than Hitler created....

This is another sad tragic event. Lets just hope the media gets it right this time and focuses on the real problem this poor kid had and not the fact that he "dressed in black" or that he listened to "goth and german techno" music.(My wife and I both dress in black, listen and dance to goth and techno music and even have a favorite goth night club that we go to all the time) The reason I mention this, is because not once, have I ever thought of doing something so terrible due to the music I listen to. Why? Becuase I had wonderful parents who taught me right from wrong and parents who were there for me. Just as with Columbine, this poor kid had some real problems. I am sure since he was different, many kids did pick on him. The one thing I did read, was that his father had committed suicide a few years back and his mother is in a nursing home, because she had been in an accident. Why his father went the suicide route, that is not known. He lived with his grandparents, but since he had been through some real bad times with losing his father and his mother, I wonder if he ever got some real help? I feel terrible for all the families that are now suffering from their loss, but I also feel terrible for this boy.

I feel that that is a very unfair statement, and untrue. The majority of this generation feels absolute disgust towards that war and man, even if there is some sort of intellectual interest. When I took Western Civ II a couple of years ago we focused on the persecution of the Jews. We read the book Maus, a true story about one of the prisoner camps and believe me, while I found the story to be fascinating (from a historical viewpoint) I also found it to be downright disgusting. So please do not generalize a generation by saying such things, because that is truly a horrible thing to say. There are far too many of us to use a handful of people as an example for the group.

What really bothers me through things like this, is the media. Years ago there was not so much coverage and these events didn't appear to be as wide spread. In the 80's when my brother was in junior high there was a riot at his school, but you never would have heard about that on the news. The media creates a problem because they glorify these incidents by discussing it and showing footage nonstop. IMO, they're the ones contributing to their frequency. The sensationalistic nature of the media truly disgusts me.

I couldn't agree with you more. The media is a bunch of garbage that we can do without. They over sensationalize everything! Not that this school shooting story isn't a tragic event. But, during the Columbine school shooting, you had the media parked outside that school and they broadcast the story over and over again until it made me sick. They interrupted the local programs to keep this story live for almost 24 hours or more. All they needed to do was tell the story of what had happened and that was it, enough!! How many times did we have to see these kids running and crying? or see that poor kid crawling out of a broken window all covered in blood? Of course, the media had to blame things like Goth music and such, give me a break!! Today, we have so much time devoted to the news on TV that they have to have something to fill the time. When I was a kid, the news came on at 6pm and the evening news at 6:30. That was it, then you had to wait until 11pm to see the late night news that only went to 11:30. Today, the news starts at 4:30pm or 5pm and lasts until 7. In the morning, we have news that starts at 5:30am and lasts until 9am. For Gods sake, we don't need all that. So, the media has to make all the stories more interesting the keep your attention. They love when disaster happens and they love cramming it down our throats.

Amen! When I was a freshman at UCF, my roommate in the dorms was from Columbine HS. She was THERE when the event happened, and when she told me about it, I could tell how much damage it had done to her. But to make matters worse, the media (and this was 2 years after the event) would still go on about it. Anytime it was mentioned on TV she would change the channel so fast because they just wouldn't let her HEAL. How unfair is it to those who were there to keep shoving it down their throats? People deserve a chance to return to normal, and the media does not allow for that. My poor roomie had to sleep with the TV one every night since the incident or else she could never get to sleep. It's just so tragic all around, and the media only compounds that. She came all of the way from Littleton to Orlando for school in an effort to escape it. I think it was devastating to her when she realized there was no place she could go that people wouldn't feel taken aback after learning where she went to school.

Very good point. The news is there to just give us the story, not to force us to re-live the issue over and over again. I feel terrible for your roommate that couldn't escape that horror. Yes, I too feel the more they show these stories over and over again, gives other people ideas. But yet, they want to blame the music they listen to or that they dressed in black. God forbid you walked around with a long black trench coat on after Columbine, you got looks like, Oh my God, run!!!

I just wonder if this kid ever went through any professional counseling. My 10 year old cousin's father (my uncle) died last year suddenly. My aunt put him through counseling even though at the time he appeared to be dealing ok. It was a good thing because he did start to have a few "anger issues" a few months after. But since he was seeing the counselor it was addressed before things got out of hand. He is doing much better now. I would hope that after all of this his grandparents would have put him through counseling, but I haven't heard anything about that.
Also, I heard this kid was on some sort of program where he was taught at home and a teacher came to visit him at home due to disciplinary problems at the school. I am NOT blaming the school in any way for what happened, but I wonder if something could be done on the school's side to see that children with disciplinary problems and such have professional help. Whether it be a school counselor or someone outside of the school. Sometimes I think if the schools had more authority than they do right now over students then some of the problems we see now could be prevented.
I also don't think clothes or music have anything to do with the way a kid, or adults for that matter act.
Regarding Hitler, I don't think today's generations are as educated on things such as WWII than they could be. I graduated high school, and am taking college classes (no history yet), but I don't know that much about the man and all of the bad things that happened. I would agree that much of my generation is "untouched" by the events of that time, and think that folks even younger than myself are even less educated.

Chances are when this kid brought that gun to school all he was thinking about was making the pain stop and what better way than to take out what was causing the pain? I'm not saying it was a necesarily sane thought but everyone has a point they break at.

As a far as why didn't anyone see the signs, people usually see what they want to see and will gloss over in their minds the things they don't want to see. And I do believe that we still live in a culture were bullying is glossed over as boys will be boys or whatever. It may not be as bad as when I was a kid but it is still there.

It's a very sad think indeed when a person feels they have no other way to turn except to violence. Being a victim of bullying when I was a kid, I can identify with the pain that these kids go through, admittedly it never occured to me to shoot up the school but the violence was always there below the surface. In the group of friends, I had I can not think of one of us that didn't think of suicide during highschool. We weren't the popular kids and chances are we had emotional problems but thankfully most of us made it through.

As far as the media goes, they expliot whatever they can for a story and once that story is done they go on to expliot the next thing. School violence has been around for years and anyone who doesn't think that evidently didn't go to my school or my parent's school.

Unfortunately all the school can do is bring up the problem to the parent, they can't ask the parents to put them in counseling and they certainly can not require it.

Again, I would ask you not to generalize this generation. Just because your high school did not go into depth about it, doesn't mean none or even a majority are the same. At my high school there was a European History class that went into depth on it. Generalizations are what get us into trouble. Every generation has been unfairly generalized in numerous ways, and this is yet another.

Ok, but whern I hear Hitler called a "Great leader" I cringe and I mean BIG TIME. Get a clue people.

I have to say, I think you're mistaking the word "leader" for "positive leader". Hitler WAS a good leader, otherwise nobody would have listened to him. Not to mention that he took a country that was in recession and brought it up as one of the leading forces in the world at the time. You CANNOT accomplish that without leadership skills. It's the same prinicple as cult LEADERS. They're good at what they do, but the OUTCOME is negative. Leadership doesn't imply that the end destination (the place where the followers are being led) is a positive one. It can be a terrible, tragic one, which Hitler and his influence on Germany demonstrates.

As well, I also take offence to the comment that we are "untouched". I, for one, took history in high school that gave me the basics, but also have had numerous interactions with people who were THERE. My grandfather fought in WW2 for Canada. A friend from high school's father fought for Germany. I interview a woman for a grade 7 project on how she was forced to flee Poland by hiding in a cargo container. That certainly didn't leave me "untouched". Maybe the distance you're seeing between our generations has something to do with the judgements you are making without actually talking to us.

Yeah he brought the Germans up just to be knocked down how many years later?....and how was he doing this? by lying and cheating and being insane.

I am just saying I see this trend toward dehumanizing WW2. I suspect it's cause there is no anchor for you there, my father was in it. And so it's real for me. But for you it's just a subject of curiousity. I am so glad that Steven Spielberg is taking real life stories about Holocaust survivors. So people can hear real people talking about it.

Did you even read my post? I just named 3 people that I know who were in it. "but for me it's just a subject of curiosity"....so, because I wasn't born then, my opinion is moot? I've heard the stories straight from people's mouths. I was very affected by them. But I guess that was just my "curiosity" acting up. I suppose you must think it's impossible for the past to have any real effect on future generations, then....maybe you think we should just give up teaching about past wars entirely. Why bother trying to teach current generations the mistakes of the past. They won't learn from it, it'll just peak their curiosity!

Second, the point at hand was whether he was a good leader, not whether we are dehuminizing WW2, which I don't think we are. Diary of Anne Frank and similar Holocaust surviver stories are often assigned reading in schools, not to mention several projects and educational guest lecturers that we've had come in throughout my schooling.

There should never be any question, Hitler was able to manipulate the manipulatable. Period. He was NOT a leader. A real leader is like FDR who brings his people up to keep them up. Doesn't die in some bunker
somewhere still nuts and ranting.

Hitler was a charismatic leader, an inspirational speaker (i.e. he did know how to inspire people to action), and also a sociopath, drug addict, and obsessed with the occult and power (and in particular, how the occult could increase his power). He was a megalomaniac. I agree with Marge in the sense that anyone who can look at Hitler with any kind of awe and inspiration after knowing what his ends were makes me cringe. Jim Jones was also a charismatic leader and inspirational speaker...but people don't look at him with awe and inpiration now, knowing what happened in Guayana.

I'm taking a leap here, but I think what Marge is trying to say is that the distance from WWII is, in general, getting large enough that younger generations view it in much the same sense as we view the Civil or Revolutionary Wars. They are interesting to study, but there isn't a personal connection for the majority of people. Of course there will be exception, such as Leli has pointed out as her own personal experience. But the fact that the WWII veterans are dying at a rate of hundreds or thousands a day now simply because of their age, the people personally affected by it are becoming fewer and fewer.

What does this have to do with this kid? Well, because the people affected by his actions are not prevalent, Hitler is more and more becoming idealized. The horror of what he put not only the Jewish/Gypsy/disabled/retarded people through, but also his own people through, is becoming lost in the historical "facts and figures". So there are people who are disillussioned with society today and look to the past for ideals, and find there Hitler and Stalin. And their ideology and people who subscribe to it are readily found on the internet, and the results, such as Columbine are plastered all over the media for years (think it was bad nationwide? Try living here! It was on nearly every local news broadcast for at least 2 years, at least once a week). All of that plays into the vulnerability of a kid who is lost, bullied, angry, and hopeless...regardless of how he dresses or what music he listens to.

lead·er
n.
One that leads or guides.
One who is in charge or in command of others.

One who heads a political party or organization.
One who has influence or power, especially of a political nature.

Are you saying that Hitler was never in any of the abovementioned positions?