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Iraq civilians

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Have a look at this - what they are not telling us about what is happening in Iraq:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN410A.html
post #2 of 26
Do you have access to Free Speech T.V. (FSTV) or WorldLink TV? They are on satellite & all along they have been showing the things that mainstream USA media doesn't. This includes TV news from Israel & the Middle East. I have seen footage from Israel where the Israelis themselves are more outraged about treatment of Palenstinians than the Americans are. The Mosaic program will feature footage that show the actual gore & injuries (quite nauseating) that are the reality of war. I wish that more people would be truly informed. Susan

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyranson
Have a look at this - what they are not telling us about what is happening in Iraq:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN410A.html
post #3 of 26
A quick glance at www.globalresearch reveals their anti-American, anti-Bush agenda. Keep that in mind when reading the article.

We all know Iraqi civilians have been killed. War is messy - innocent people get caught up in it. It's a sad fact and it has been this way in every war ever fought. I wouldn't for a minute believe the number is as high as what this article claims.

Mass graves of at least 300,000 Iraqis have been found, courtesy of Saddam. Where is globalresearch's outrage over that?
post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn
A quick glance at www.globalresearch reveals their anti-American, anti-Bush agenda. Keep that in mind when reading the article.

We all know Iraqi civilians have been killed. War is messy - innocent people get caught up in it. It's a sad fact and it has been this way in every war ever fought. I wouldn't for a minute believe the number is as high as what this article claims.

Mass graves of at least 300,000 Iraqis have been found, courtesy of Saddam. Where is globalresearch's outrage over that?
The study was done by Johns Hopkins, a renowned U.S. institution, which I rather doubt should be accused of anti-Americanism, and first published in The Lancet, a highly respected British medical journal. I think those sources should be kept in mind when reading the article posted on globalresearch's Web site.

Those 300,000 Iraqis may very well have been in the mass graves courtesy of Saddam and/or his policies (I'm not disputing that), but how many of them perished in the slaughter of the 1980s Persian Gulf War between Iraq and Iran, and how many in the first "Gulf War"? The media don't appear to have delved very deeply into that question.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
I have a number of friends out there, working in communications, archaeologists and anthropologists working in the mass graves, and some military types. And yes, there is propaganda on all sides, but there is an awful lot that is not reported or even that is suppressed.
post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn
A quick glance at www.globalresearch reveals their anti-American, anti-Bush agenda. Keep that in mind when reading the article.

We all know Iraqi civilians have been killed. War is messy - innocent people get caught up in it. It's a sad fact and it has been this way in every war ever fought. I wouldn't for a minute believe the number is as high as what this article claims.

Mass graves of at least 300,000 Iraqis have been found, courtesy of Saddam. Where is globalresearch's outrage over that?

What bothers me is it's easy to sit here all this far away and
say "war is messy", if it was your family who was killed I think you would be saying more than that....
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
The study was done by Johns Hopkins, a renowned U.S. institution, which I rather doubt should be accused of anti-Americanism, and first published in The Lancet, a highly respected British medical journal. I think those sources should be kept in mind when reading the article posted on globalresearch's Web site.

Those 300,000 Iraqis may very well have been in the mass graves courtesy of Saddam and/or his policies (I'm not disputing that), but how many of them perished in the slaughter of the 1980s Persian Gulf War between Iraq and Iran, and how many in the first "Gulf War"? The media don't appear to have delved very deeply into that question.
Right and the thing is let's not fall into the American hubris trap that everything we do is great and the rest of the world has to follow it. No one likes Saddam but couldn't we have gotten him out of power say the way we did Malosovich? Or others? They overthrew the Shah of Iran without a war.

Also, remember we dont' know what is going on, good or bad. And I hear things like the reason the voting turn out was so great was the Shiah IRan government told the Shiah Iraqis to vote. So I mean that doens't spell freedom for the Sunni's necessarily.
post #8 of 26
Well said, Marge & JCat!
post #9 of 26
It's one thing to read articles or watch the news. It's another to see visual images of war that stay with you forever. Want to know the real deal in Iraq? Watch Fehrenheit 911. I'm ready for any comments brought my way!!!
post #10 of 26
Marge, perhaps I could have used another word instead of "messy" but I felt that was pretty darn descriptive. However, please know that I am not being glib.

My family has a long history of proudly serving in the US military since World War 1.
Not all of them have returned home. Several (civilian) family members living in Europe during WW2 were killed. The suffering of innocent people caught up in the chaos of war is not lost on me.

What exactly is the point of knowing how many civilians have died as a result of the war in Iraq? That is, aside from giving those who are anti-war, and/or anti-American yet more "mud" to sling at the administration and the military? Isn't any number of civilians killed in war cause for sadness and regret? Would 1,000 dead civilians be more acceptable than 100,000? As you point out,Marge, not if YOUR family was part of the 1,000 casualties. War is hell, Marge, and innocent people get killed along with the bad guys. Soldiers get killed by friendly fire. The wrong places get bombed. It's not pretty, it's not clean. Mistakes are made. It has been like this in EVERY war and that will never change.

So again, what is the point here if not to start yet another Bush-bashing, anti-war tirade which I've no doubt this will deteriorate into.
post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTLynn
So again, what is the point here if not to start yet another Bush-bashing, anti-war tirade which I've no doubt this will deteriorate into.
The point is that this is information we should know and be aware of. I agree that there is suppression of the truth. Thank God there are studies like these to give us a "wake up" call or I should say hold us from fallling into the propaganda trap which many of us did in this particular "war". Remember, it was and is a very controversial one.
post #12 of 26
OK, Yayi, so now we "know and are aware" of this information - ASSUMING that it's accurate. What now? What exactly do we do with the information?
post #13 of 26
This isn't a war we were suprised attacked into. So if we have something to hide that is really sick. If the powers that be did this invasion, they can at least have the respect to those who have died not hide the truth.

I think it's necessary for the public to know or we are drifting into an area
that is very dangerous. The press is mentioned in the bill of rights for a reason. There are suppose to be checksand balances. That concept in fact, is probably the most briliant and valueable that our founding fathers put in there.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Right and the thing is let's not fall into the American hubris trap that everything we do is great and the rest of the world has to follow it.
I have to say that is hard not to fall into that trap. Canada's government seems to do it time and time again. When can we as Canadian's make our own decisions? I wonder if we ever will, sadly.

To KTLynn, I agree that war is "messy" What isn't messy about lives lost, lives disrupted and (it seems at times) utter chaos? Messy?... an understatement to me~

Lives are lost for meaningless reasons... such as was pointed out; friendly fire. I will not forget the day that Canadians were killed in that situation (in Afganistan). I am meaning no disrespect to the Americans but this could have been prevented (for those that don't know http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...nistan.canada/ ) So yes, war is messy, for those who are there, those whose lives are lost and the families left behind.

Regardless of what we know or do not, the state of the world's affairs are getting to me, and I wish it would stop.
It won't, I know, but what harm is there in wishing?

So sad~
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugaimes
It's one thing to read articles or watch the news. It's another to see visual images of war that stay with you forever. Want to know the real deal in Iraq? Watch Fehrenheit 911. I'm ready for any comments brought my way!!!
LOL...and it's another thing to watch a movie that is one of the most biased pieces out there. Moore edited and re-edited quotes to fit HIS agenda.

Here's a summary of 59 MAJOR lies told in his movie. The author even asks Mr. Moore to defend or respond to the claims (which he does not, most of the time).

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm

Fahrenheit 9/11 is the LAST source anyone should ever claim to be an accurate account of ANYTHING.
post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
This isn't a war we were suprised attacked into. So if we have something to hide that is really sick. If the powers that be did this invasion, they can at least have the respect to those who have died not hide the truth.

I think it's necessary for the public to know or we are drifting into an area
that is very dangerous. The press is mentioned in the bill of rights for a reason. There are suppose to be checksand balances. That concept in fact, is probably the most briliant and valueable that our founding fathers put in there.
Sooo...

back in WW2, did the US media report on the number of civilian casualties that occurred durning that conflict? Would you be opposed to the war even if you knew it was policy to bomb civilian populations into submission to break their will to fight? Did you also know, that over 30 million civilians were killed during World War 2? I'm willing to bet those numbers weren't reported.

Would it have made a difference? Is it absolutely necessary to know that? How many civilians would be killed under Saddam's regime had he not been removed from power? Why don't you ask the Iraqi people if they're better off now or under Saddam's rule? Better yet, why don't we just bring everyone home and put Saddam back in power since he's such a nice guy and Bush is a bad, bad man.
post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
The best movie about the Iraq war and the war against terror is 'Control Room', a documentary about Al Jazeera TV. I saw it in LA in the summer and there were only about 5 people in the theatre, unfortunately. If anyone gets a chance to see it I recommend it. I have to say I can't stand Michael Moore's self-satisfied attitude, even if I agree with some (not all) of what he says.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye23
Sooo...

back in WW2, did the US media report on the number of civilian casualties that occurred durning that conflict? Would you be opposed to the war even if you knew it was policy to bomb civilian populations into submission to break their will to fight? Did you also know, that over 30 million civilians were killed during World War 2? I'm willing to bet those numbers weren't reported.

Would it have made a difference? Is it absolutely necessary to know that? How many civilians would be killed under Saddam's regime had he not been removed from power? Why don't you ask the Iraqi people if they're better off now or under Saddam's rule? Better yet, why don't we just bring everyone home and put Saddam back in power since he's such a nice guy and Bush is a bad, bad man.
I'd like to ask the Iraqi people what they think of this, yes!

If you read my post, I stated that WW2 was different IMHO, we were surprise attacked into it. Why do you balk at our government being held accountable for it's serious actions?
That doesn't seem American to me. That is what
dictators want. Control of the media, the flow of information etc.
post #19 of 26
I really don't want to discuss the war, the administration, the reasons we are there or what should be done. We've done that a million times already just in this forum, and about the only thing we can learn is that we cannot and will not ever agree. Just want to share some thoughts about the article and statistics that I had...

Statistics are always funny things...you can make statistics show whatever you want them to show by asking the right questions. That doesn't mean that I discount everything I see, but I do take anything done with surveys with a grain of salt. It is also true that 1st person surveys are historically rather inaccurate, because of many factors...not the least of which being people perhaps being more inclined to give answers that they think the interviewer wants to hear based on their even unconscious replies as well as the wording of the questions.

This is a non-traditional war, as I'm sure you all know by now. The enemy isn't another army marching out to the battlefield. In fact, since Saddam's Army surrendered the only people in uniform have been the coalition forces. So, it does stand to reason that any casualty that isn't in a uniform (defined as military) could be classified a civilian even if they were directly engaging coalition forces. I'm sure the families (who were the ones interviewed) wouldn't make the differentiation between a civilian combatant and a civilian.

This is not to say that innocents were not killed. I'm sure they were. And it's tragic, but it is war and unfortunately that is part of war. Especially when the enemy purposely uses civilian populations as cover and imbeds themselves within the population...
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I'd like to ask the Iraqi people what they think of this, yes!

If you read my post, I stated that WW2 was different IMHO, we were surprise attacked into it. Why do you balk at our government being held accountable for it's serious actions?
That doesn't seem American to me. That is what
dictators want. Control of the media, the flow of information etc.
That still begs the question that KTLynn said. Ok, so now you know and assuming that information is accurate, now what? What do you do with that information?

What's your plan Marge? It's easy to sit back and be a critic. So what's the solution?
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye23
That still begs the question that KTLynn said. Ok, so now you know and assuming that information is accurate, now what? What do you do with that information?

What's your plan Marge? It's easy to sit back and be a critic. So what's the solution?
At least I am *being* critical, instead of all this following
without questioning I see in this era. What is up with that? This is America damnit. And I will get accused here of being
anti freedom or something, but really just the opposite is the case.

If I know how many deaths, the US can be held accountable for it's decision and that no we didn't get met with chocolates and dancing in the streets. So maybe next time some country wants to invade another they can actually think about it a little harder than our boys (and I use the term on purpose) did.
post #22 of 26
This is not to say that innocents were not killed. I'm sure they were. And it's tragic, but it is war and unfortunately that is part of war. Especially when the enemy purposely uses civilian populations as cover and imbeds themselves within the population...[/quote]


You know, with all respect, I have to chuckle at the naivete of
"oh war is messy" when you or I have never been in one, nor even close! Yeah..it's "unfortunate", yeah it puts a crimp in your day to have your family bombed cause a
"Smart bomb" went off in your face. No wonder no one likes Americans anymore. I mean as long as it doesn't happen here, we are just Jim dandy with violence.
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
At least I am *being* critical, instead of all this following
without questioning I see in this era. What is up with that? This is America damnit. And I will get accused here of being
anti freedom or something, but really just the opposite is the case.

If I know how many deaths, the US can be held accountable for it's decision and that no we didn't get met with chocolates and dancing in the streets. So maybe next time some country wants to invade another they can actually think about it a little harder than our boys (and I use the term on purpose) did.
Good job at dodging legitimate questions. So really, you were there? You know for a fact that not once were our troops welcomed as liberators?

No one accused you of being anti-freedom or anti-American, but all day in this forum some of you people complain. You turn threads that discuss soap into Bush bashing threads (read sarcasm here). Bush this, Bush that...NOT ONCE have I seen any of you come up with a viable solution to ANYTHING he's doing. And when asked, you duck the question.

I wasn't on this forum when the whole WMA thing was going on. And I'm not about to open up the reasons for going in can of worms. We're well past that, but apparently some of you are still hung up on what happened 2 years ago.

Oh...and here's your civilian deaths

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

A FAR cry from the proposed 100,000+. Does that make it any less tragic that roughly 20,000 civilians have died? Absolutely not. But I'm sure the 60% to 75% of the registered voters in Iraq (source: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...BE41ADE2C8.htm )are thankful we are there.
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye23
Good job at dodging legitimate questions. So really, you were there? You know for a fact that not once were our troops welcomed as liberators?

No one accused you of being anti-freedom or anti-American, but all day in this forum some of you people complain. You turn threads that discuss soap into Bush bashing threads (read sarcasm here). Bush this, Bush that...NOT ONCE have I seen any of you come up with a viable solution to ANYTHING he's doing. And when asked, you duck the question.

I wasn't on this forum when the whole WMA thing was going on. And I'm not about to open up the reasons for going in can of worms. We're well past that, but apparently some of you are still hung up on what happened 2 years ago.

Oh...and here's your civilian deaths

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

A FAR cry from the proposed 100,000+. Does that make it any less tragic that roughly 20,000 civilians have died? Absolutely not. But I'm sure the 60% to 75% of the registered voters in Iraq (source: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...BE41ADE2C8.htm )are thankful we are there.

Wait a minute, so now I am the one, Mr John Q Public, who has to come up with solutions to his blunders?
post #25 of 26

Some posters are in danger of crossing that little line (in my mind and conscience) that determines whether I feel obligated to edit.
There has admittedly been a substantial amount of "Bush bashing" on this forum, but also posts designed, perhaps unconsciously, perhaps deliberately, to "incite Bush bashing". Goading isn't exactly a novel way of silencing those who don't share your views.
post #26 of 26
Oh just delete the whole damn thing. I have a headache still from the subject matter....

(no disrespect to who started it, I know you meant well..)
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