Why are they no large cat breeds?

amberthe bobcat

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Originally Posted by maverick_kitten

the egyptians used to keep cheetars etc as hunting cats. i think the breeds exsist in nature but no one wants an animal that has such prey-driven instincts 150lb + as a domestic pet.

(with the exception of those who have special licences and keep wild cats.)
Well, everyone here knows I do
Some day, I want to be owned by a cougar, that is if the ban laws don't spoil it. Nothing would please me more. However, a cat the size of a cougar could not live inside your home, they would destroy the place. My bobcats do that as it is.
Spotz, hello by the way. I haven't seen you out here in a while
 

cirque

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Originally Posted by Obi

The original question was, why are there no large domestic cats? Now, it is absolutely possible to breed such a cat. You would simply take a population and only breed together the largest of them. In each generation, you would again only breed the largest. Eventually, the average size in the population would increase, because you would be selecting for large size. So, it is completely possible. But I think the answer to why no one has, is because there is no driving need or desire to. Humans, with a very few exceptions, have never bred cats for the purpose of using them, only for the purpose of admiring them. So differences in cat breeds tend to be cosmetic only. However, dogs have been bred small and agile to go down gopher burrows (jack russel); large and swift to hunt deer (deerhounds or elkhounds); medium, highly intelligent and agile for sheep herding . . . see where I'm going here? Dog breeding has a long history, and was driven for the most part by the need for a working animal (then later for lap dogs). Cats have not been selectively bred for as long, have not been the companions of humans as long (hence they are less "domesticated") and have almost never been bred for working purposes. They have only been bred to look different, striking, beautiful . . . but ultimately the same basic shape and size. No one has seen a need to change that yet.
So what I am hearing is we need a purpose to justify breeding such large cats... Ok.. whos going to start the giant mouse breeding so we can get them real big, let them escape by "accident" then startup the "build a bigger cat" program to go catch the new giant mice?!
 

maverick_kitten

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

Well, everyone here knows I do
Some day, I want to be owned by a cougar, that is if the ban laws don't spoil it. Nothing would please me more. However, a cat the size of a cougar could not live inside your home, they would destroy the place. My bobcats do that as it is.
Spotz, hello by the way. I haven't seen you out here in a while
i was thinking of you and spotz!

thants another issue, if you had a 150lb cat you would need the space to keep it. you could hardly let it be an indoot/outdoor cat. imagine looking out the window and seeing a giant domestic hunting your tiny yorkshire terrier in the back garden!
 

okeefecl

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Originally Posted by Cobra

It does seem kind of strange though how no human civilization on Earth even tried breed large domesticate cats. Where as we see the dog with so much variation in size. Dogs have strong predatory instints too, though dogs don't have sharp claws or pouncing abilities as cats do.
I think the reason that we see such a variation in size among dogs is that dogs has been kept as *working* animals in a large number of different jobs since domestication. Large dogs (Rottweilers) were needed to herd cattle, medium dogs (Australian Shepard) to herd sheep, small dogs (terriers) were needed for ratters, and so on. Humans never really used cats as working animals (except for mousers) so there was no evolutionary pressure to develop different body shapes. Instead, cats have been bred for looks (coat color, eye color, body shape etc.).
 

ttmom

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I didn't have a chance to comment yesterday, but I'm someone who likes big cats. My boy is a 21 pound Maine Coon mix and if I could one like him at 50-75 pounds I'd be in heaven. But I'd want him to be like my Toeser, a big lover boy! I also like big dogs. I want a Mastiff once we have the room, but right now our yard is too small so we couldn't get anything much bigger than a Keeshond (which I like too, but they're little dogs to me).
 

laureen227

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Originally Posted by Me-n-my guys

What I think would REALLY be cool is to breed a house cat with tiger markings, or any of the leopard variations, or a cheetah, or....you name it.
i've always wanted a 'mini' tiger! i think the bengals DO look like leopards, & i've always wanted one of those, too!
 

bren.1

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Cats are already perfect, even if they're small.

As a few people have mentioned, they would be a little scary if they were bigger. My cat Faile is pretty tough at 10 pounds, I don't think I'd want to deal with her at 50 pounds. I think they would need larger spaces to move in, and imagine the "gifts" they could leave.
 

sharky

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I personally would love a 50-75 lb kitty ... not any bigger or the risks of harm to me and the small kritter s I keep would increase... I have a once ferral cat now and she is quite wild any domestication assisitance I am listening....
 

spotz

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Great post Cobra...my thoughts:
Originally Posted by Cobra

That is true that cats have a much larger size variation but as far as domestic cats go, only one size exists. Ocelots, though smaller and easier to handle, are still wild animals and usually ANY type of exotic animals owning is looked down on.
Kinda strange that if you are slightly different than the expected norm, how quickly people are to judge. Or worse yet, to eliminate.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Cheetahs come are the closest to a domestic animal considering how tame these gentle cats can be but still they are wild. Many people look down on exotic pets however the largest amount of exotic mammal pets besides ferrets are big cats such as leopard and smaller cats like the lynx (which still weigh 50 pounds).
Not to pick semantics here, but I'd strongly question the statment that exotic cats are the second most common 'exotic' mammal. However, they are definately the most well reported. Anytime something tragic happens with these animals, it is national news. Yet only on Animal Planet is the peril of so many domesticated animals made national, consistently. Somehow though, the one simple truth always seem to go unmentioned.

It is extremely rare for an animal "domesticated" or otherwise to be the sole culprit, usually it is the owners fault.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Big cats are probably some of the more dangerous exotic pets to handle (besides a cheetah or a cat under 60 pounds). I think if they domesticated cats for that size it might help stop the exotic cat trade.
Indeed though, all animals are dangerous in their own regard. Case in point, on average over 12,000 [twelve thousand] people are bitten by a dog each day in the United States. Approximately 1,000 [one thousand] of these injuries require treatment in an emergency department. Worse yet, on average, 1 [one] person dies as a result of dog bite related injuries each month.

Yet all of the entities against ownership, profess that it is much safer to own a "domesticated" animal such as a dog. In reality though, over the past decade there have been significantly less than 1,000 reported injuries and on average approximately 1 death per year attributed to captive, "non-domesticated" felines.

I'd personally feel safer with a ban on dogs rather than exotics...but I'm biased ever so slightly


Originally Posted by Cobra

It does seem kind of strange though how no human civilization on Earth even tried breed large domesticate cats. Where as we see the dog with so much variation in size. Dogs have strong predatory instints too, though dogs don't have sharp claws or pouncing abilities as cats do.
Technically, there are a few limited attempts of crossing "exotic" cats with domestics to create larger "domestic" cats. Chausies for example. However I'm not aware of any attempts to breed larger yet. I don't expect this to happen anytime soon, as it will take a lot of interbreeding for the size difference to allow for compatibility. For the simple reason that you can't put a Great Dane and a Pomeranian together and expect things to work out, even though they are both "domestic" breeds, the size difference pretty much makes breeding impossible. So crossing a Cougar with a "domestic" breed would prove similarly impossible, even if the genetics are scientifically compatible.

However, on the other hand, I also somewhat question the necessity to manufacture a breed, when there is already a very healthy variety of sizes amongst felids. More importantly so, that with these species, there is a very good amount of information regarding their needs and their ability to thrive in a domestic environment.

Either way, I truely hope that people will show more tolerance of these animals and those who want nothing more than to have the ability to share a symbiotic relationship with these animals.

Spotz
PS I mentioned a ban on dogs in my post, merely for illustrative purposes, remember, a ban no matter of what, is always a bad thing. Bans are Bad.
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by AmberThe Bobcat

...
Spotz, hello by the way. I haven't seen you out here in a while
Been quite busy, and continue to be, my presense will probably continue to be Spotty for the forseeable future. I'm far from gone though


Spotz
 
G

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Maine Coons are bred to be large cats. I think 30 pounds is as large as they go, though. So there is an interest in larger domestic felines.

I'm wondering if a 100 pound or even a 50 pound house cat is even possible. Their structure is different from that of a cougar or cheetah. Consider they're the only feline who can lift their tail completely verticle. There has to be a reason that large cats can't do the same thing, and I'm betting it has to do with the small stature of house cats. I'm thinking that their backbones and hips wouldn't be able to handle the stress of being that large. To be able to get a cat to that size, they'd have to go through a lot of evolution. And to mix in "wild" cats into the gene pool would introduce an element of the undomesticated. I don't know if that would be safe for just anyone to own.

I personally would love to have a 50 pound domestic cat. They'd be a lot less afraid of the world, and I would be able to roughouse with it like I would be able to a dog. (I'm very scared of dogs, they're too unpredicatble for me.) Cats I know and trust. Merlin is 18 pounds, but he really isn't that much overweight. He stands a bit above my knee, and when I stand straight up I can hold onto the end of his tail. If he were larger I think it would be a lot of fun.
 

brianlojeck

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Hell no.

Cats are natural killers. Godzilla might purr when I pick him up, and sleep curled up in a ball next to my wife, and be adorable and loving, but inside him is a dangerous animal, and a frightening predator.

The average dog (even the big ones) have a kind of "worship" mentality that helps to keep them in check. Many domesticated dogs don't even remember that they CAN hunt, and those that do (shepherds, malamutes, huskys) take a strong-willed owner to keep in check, lest they bite the first child to grab their tail.

Try to teach your cat to "sit" or "stay" or "come" on command (without treat in hand, just like you would a dog), and then try to imagine that cat is the size of a german shepherd, and your 5-year-old neice comes bouncing through the living room.

In fact, here's a neat experiment. Take a young child to the zoo on a quiet day, and park in front of a cage holding a cougar, jaguar, or one of the smaller "great cats" that they don't give an acre to hide in like a lion or tiger. ("cat alley" at the san diego zoo is ideal if you are near there). Have the child skip or run past the cage, and watch the cat's face. There is only one thought in his little kitty brain, and if you love the child you'll be very happy those bars are there...
 

carolcat

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Originally Posted by Cobra

Let us look at two of the most popular domesticated pets: Dogs and Cats. There are hundreds of breed of both, and each breed is unique and some can look very different from each other.

However what is the biggest difference between dogs and cats that are domesticated? Domestic Dogs have a much large variation of size (and muzzle sizes, but who really cares about that). The very first domestic wolf which weighed around 100 pounds has been manipulated into breeds as small as the 4 pound Chihuahua to the 200 pound Mastiffs.

Domestic cats were domesticated not long after domesticated dogs. So why is it that domestic cat really only come in one size; between 8-15 pounds for an adult? How come no one has selectively bred a specific cat to grow into lets say a 50 pound kitty or why not even a 150 pound kitty.

I guess cats are a lot tougher to handle than dogs considering cats have sharp claws and the fact that cats are no social by nature. However, shouldn't there be at least one civilization that created a large cat breed? What do you think?
I love my cat as much as a person can but I also respect that my cat IS a CAT. Cats are not as domesticated and docile as dogs are. They retain the "wild" nature and instincts no matter how "tame" they APPEAR to be. You can not control a cat, a cat does what the cat wants to do, whether or not the human involved it pleased about it. A cat will not obey to "please" you as a dog will. Punshment will not "make" a cat behave or "obey" you. There are breeds of cats that fall into the weight catagory that you name but they are WILD, and lets face it, the cats that we are priviledged to have as friends are tiny tigers but tigers none the less and they sometimes react as a WILD cat would do given the wrong set of circumstances. Trying to breed up a "domesticated" cat to a size that big is a bad idea IMHO as the "little tigers" that we have now can do major damage at the size they are now, given a reason, or sometimes sadly even without one that we can understand or recognize. At the size you are nameing they would become killers of careless or obnoxious humans that could not or did not realize the above and respect them and would in turn be killed themselves just for being what they are, CATS. Sorry if I climbed on my soapbox for a second. No offence intended, just my opinion.
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by carolcat

...At the size you are nameing they would become killers of careless or obnoxious humans that could not or did not realize the above and respect them and would in turn be killed themselves just for being what they are, CATS. Sorry if I climbed on my soapbox for a second. No offence intended, just my opinion.
No Offense taken here, and none meant by the following


Your statment quoted above, outlines the message that those who want to own these animals are desperately trying to convey.

The message is simple, Owning these animals takes responsibility, however this is a true statment for ANY animal. If a person isn't willing or able to take on the responsibility, then they should choose a different animal or none at all.

If the potential for "careless/obnoxious" owners is to be used as a reasoning against keeping a type of animal, then this reason must be equally applied to all kinds of animals. Applying this logic to current "domesticated" animals, it is quite obvious that there are plenty of careless/obnoxious owners out there, and in all cases, the animal suffers the greatest.

Perhaps the strangest thing though IMO, is that this reasoning isn't being applied equally. As mentioned in my previous post, the potential danger posed by larger felids, is merely theoretical, whereas the dangers posed by "domesticated" animals, is hard fact.

Perhaps even more interesting, is that humans seem to constantly be looking at the picture from only one side...What danger does the animal pose towards me. Again here, the danger we percieve from an animal is primarily theoretical, whereas the danger we pose towards these animals is well documented. Three of the Eight species of tiger were made extinct by mankind within the last century. Native Cougar populations in the United States have been pushed to the brink of extinction. Coyotes and Wolfs have suffered the same fate, as have many birds of prey. We have done so much more damage to these animals than they could ever do to us. Yet we still postulate on the threat they might pose, rather than the one we do.

It is a well accecpted fact that all of these animals can coexist with humans, and what's more, is that generally they thrive under our care. Living longer, healthier lives than they would without our interaction. The relationship between humans and these animals can be both very safe, and very beneficial. All it takes is Responsibility.

Spotz
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by brianlojeck

...
In fact, here's a neat experiment. Take a young child to the zoo on a quiet day, and park in front of a cage holding a cougar, jaguar, or one of the smaller "great cats" that they don't give an acre to hide in like a lion or tiger. ("cat alley" at the san diego zoo is ideal if you are near there). Have the child skip or run past the cage, and watch the cat's face. There is only one thought in his little kitty brain, and if you love the child you'll be very happy those bars are there...
Interesting example, and one with some merit indeed, but then again, I've seen similar behavior from "domestic" dogs and even "domestic" cats.

My experience with similar situations, involving these very animals [cougar, jaguar, leopard, tiger] and younger kids, has actually yeilded somewhat different perspective. With animals who are accoustomed to interacting with people, the reactions are greatly different. Generally, the cats do not pay any special attention to the younger kids than they do the adults.

Nevertheless, kids and these animals are not a very good combination. This greatly depends on tempermant of the animal, but the same can be said for the common cat and dog too.

In the spirit of experimentation:
If you put a feral cat and an average adult in a small, otherwise empty room, I can almost guarantee that adult would get hurt. Same experiment with a medium to larger sized dog may have even more serious outcome. Medium sized cats[think Lynx] pose similar threat. However, if the experiment is altered ever so slightly, where the animal is accustomed to constant [non-abusive] interaction with humans, the results would doubtful be anywhere near so dire.

Instincts definately play a very major role in this theoretical experiment. Not the instinct to kill, nor the instinct to hunt, but rather the instinct to survive. An animal unaccoustomed to humans, naturally fears them, in such confined quarters, the most common response to the percieved threat that the adult poses, the animal, without any means to hide or escape, will attack. However in the group where the animal is accoustomed to humans, the fear of people is greatly reduced, as is the instinct to percieve the adult as a threat. The reaction would be much milder, generally leaning towards that of curiosity rather than self-preservation.

Hmmm...starting to ramble
hopefully the general concept was conveyed.

Spotz
Once again to reiterate, mixing larger cats and small people [children] is generally a very bad idea, but by no means is it unheard of or impossible. The general rule is they don't mix, but as always there will always be rare exceptions.
 

KitEKats4Eva!

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Originally Posted by bren.1

Cats are already perfect, even if they're small.

As a few people have mentioned, they would be a little scary if they were bigger. My cat Faile is pretty tough at 10 pounds, I don't think I'd want to deal with her at 50 pounds. I think they would need larger spaces to move in, and imagine the "gifts" they could leave.
Hey, did you name Faile after Perrin's wife's character in the Wheel Of Time series? If you did - brilliant!! What a great name I wish I had thought of something like that for my little girl.

They are amongst my all time favourite books ever.
 

brianlojeck

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Originally Posted by Spotz

My experience with similar situations, involving these very animals [cougar, jaguar, leopard, tiger] and younger kids, has actually yeilded somewhat different perspective ... Generally, the cats do not pay any special attention to the younger kids than they do the adults.
are the kids staying pretty still? watching a presentation or something? Cats are keyed to hunt motion, and the drive is pretty hard to stop. I can pet Mea, and she'll be more then happy to rub against my hand, but the instant I move my hand along the floor in her line of vision she attacks it. It's not my hand that she's attacking, it's the movement.

and this is the key difference. With my dog, I trained her to stop biting my hand, with my cat, I have to train myself not to "set her off". Even if my dog were a 200lb mastiff, I could train it not to bite me, and the animal would be trustworthy (eventually). Do you think you could train a 75lb cat not to attack something small and rapidly moving? Could you train your 15lb housecat not to attack a ball of string?

In the spirit of experimentation:
If you put a feral cat and an average adult in a small, otherwise empty room, I can almost guarantee that adult would get hurt. Same experiment with a medium to larger sized dog may have even more serious outcome.
I question this. Most feral dogs will COWER in strange territory in my experience. They become dangerous when defending their "home". (I'm not an animal professional, but I do live in Compton, CA, with herds of stray dogs wandering the streets...). A feral cat, however, is always a threat.
 
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