Very Disturbing

Would someone please place here the EXACT PLACE in the Bible that says animals have no place in Heaven? Not Book,not Act..EXACT verse. Now please no ambiguous passages that can mean something different to anyone who reads them.

As for whether or not God can do anything for a dead cat...well I for one would not presume to limit God's abilities. I'll pray for my friends;feline or other,alive or dead.

I'm not questioning anybody's faith here. Nor am I suggesting your particular church or pastor is right or wrong. No religious wars please. I AM a Christian..I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY in God..my Master,my Father,my Brother and my Friend. But I think that to say that all God's beautiful creations have no place in Heaven is ludicrous to say the least.

Flame away if it pleases you.

Most troubling for me is this:

Regardless of anyone's position on the existence of animal souls, the lack of compassion for a living creature by the Baylor posters is abhorrent. To sarcastically and casually criticize someone for seeking prayer for the victim of any injustice, whether human or not, seems to be the height of hypocrisy for someone purporting themself to be a Christian. To criticize another for an inappropiate prayer is ludicrous -- in many ways the purpose of prayer is for God to provide the one offering it with greater understanding and strength. And surely God understands that a prayer offered for the soul of any animal is also a prayer for our own humanity.

I once was told by an Episcopalian Minister that the love that cats & dogs exhibit toward man is important because it is the closest example of unconditional love that we can tangibly experience. As a volunteer at a shelter, I can definitely attest to this in extreme circumstances. I saw badly beaten dogs that, although terrified of you, wouldn't leave your side. I often thought that it was quite fortunate for us that God and the animals are supposed to exhibit unconditional love, because if it was up to us -- they might both be in trouble.

Practically speaking, what raises the hair on the back of my neck is the coach and web-poster reactions of "it was just a cat". There is so much statistic evidence that people who commit heinous crimes on people start with animals that -- animal cruelty issues aside -- this is a very serious issue. It makes you wonder if someone said the same thing when Jeffrey Dahmer dissected cats at his parents house, or when the Mississipi school shooter burned his family pug alive if there were those who said "it was just an animal".

How we treat animals says far more about our souls than theirs.

Why is it every time an animal abuse case is brought up, religion has to be discussed? I mean come one..... this is a cat site, not a religious site! I am sorry if I am offending anyone, but this is how I feel :baloon:

It's good that you care enough about cats to bring this matter before us. There's nothing I can write which would add to what others here have already written — in regard to the torture of cats.



However, I'd like to state my opinion that religion is a private matter. Having said that, I believe we can thank Descartes — whose ideas are worshipped by conservative Christians — for the notion that non-human animals haven't "souls" and therefore cannot be in "heaven." Descartes asserted non-human animals are not sentient beings but rather clever machines which generate programmed behavior in response to external stimuli only.



If there are no animals in "heaven," I don't want to go there!



=^..^=

Tigger, I'm not into the religious debate myself (Judaism has a simple solution - there is no heaven and hell, so no need to worry who goes there or not ).

However, if people wish to discuss that here I think it's perfectly alright. People were upset by what they've read and if what it brings about is a cat related theological discussion I think that's fine. I know you don't want to offend anyone, but having been here for a while, I can tell you religion is one thing people tend to be sensitive about... So, if you don't care for the discussion - there are plenty of other threads to visit. Please don't take my words the wrong way - you're one of my favorite members I'm just trying to extinguish any flaming that may come out of it before it bursts.

Tigger - I don't think that every animal abuse case thread is overtly religious. However, this one is different simply because it started on a religious message board. Baylor is a Christian college here in Texas. That's what made this case particularly appauling, in my opinion. Being a Chrisitian, it shocks me to see other Christians behaving in a way that so goes against Christian teachings. I'm sorry if I offended you with my post. But if you knew me in person, you'd know that my relationship with God is very, very important to me. It seeps into just about every aspect of my life. One thing I'd hate is for people to not tell that I'm a Christian after they've known me.

Kittyfoot - You and I obviously have different beliefs about this. I'm sorry that I can't quote you a verse that states this in the Bible. However, my belief (and those of others like me) is that because God created humans in His image and since he is eternal, we have that blessing too. He created animals too, but not in his image so they don't have the eternal aspect. I will try to find some verses that discuss this, but I'd also like to see some verses that show that animals do have souls and will be in heaven. BUT, it doesn't really make a difference what we believe about this. We'll all find out in the end. With or without animals, heaven will surely be a great place to be. (And truthfully, I love animals so much it would be a great joy to have them there!)

Anne - Thank you for being so lenient in the topics that we can discuss on this board. I will try not to offend anyone with my posts.

Ok,

I really was going to stay out of this, but since I firmly believe that animals do have souls and they are in heaven, I am jumping in. There are many references in the Bible of man and beast and where the beast is obedient to God. There are also references in Revelation about the coming of the Lord and with the Lord comes a creature that is not man. Every living thing has a soul, and you don't need to go out and save an animal's soul, because unlike our soul, their soul is only corrupted by man. If you would like Bible verses check out these: Numbers 22-24 read those verses and then ask yourself why the donkey saw the angel of the Lord first before the man did? Because the donkey knew no sin and was able to see the angel with the eyes of the innocent. In verses 28-30 the Lord gives this dumb animal the gift of speech so she can address Balaam on her back and ask him questions. later in the new testament, 2 Peter 2:16 the prophet reminds his audience of this occurence and tells his audience that to accept this as the Word of God is to accept the faith that the Bible does not contradict itself.

Consider in Genesis chapter 8 when they speak of Noah and the animals that God wants saved from the floods. He talks in verse 5 about how He created the heavens and gave breath to the the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. In genesis 7:21-23 He talks about how every living thing on the earth in "whose nostrils was the breath of spirit of life, died.

There are other examples consider Jonah and the whale, and how the Lord finally commanded the whale to regurgitate Jonah and on the Lord's command the whale did. But out of respect to Tigger and others who might tire of a theological discussion on this board, I will stop.

I will end by saying this. I think that the reason these type of animal abuse cases end up becoming theological in nature is simply because it is evil-vs- good. When faced with the appalling amount of animal mutilation and abuse, the natural thing is to try and remind myself that there is good in the world as well. Prayer is good, no matter what religion is offering it. Hope is good, love is good and to have faith that there is good in people is what I cling to.

I for one, once I cross that Bridge and go to heaven, if I do not find my Smudge, Tag. Hissy, Gulliver, or Bravo there in Heaven, well, that will diminish heaven in my estimation. I wouldn't want to be there if my animals were not there to greet me. And if any of this post appears to be abstract, please forgive me. I am not feeling well these days.

Here is something I thought about last night. See, there is always walks and fund raises for causes and awareness. March of Dimes walk is for prevention of babies being born with defects. Then there is the walk for breast cancer. O a special activity for the homeless. Or for any other human cause.
I thing in Utah they have a thing in April called Be Kind to Animals Week. I will try and see if they have sort of a walk, march or any kind of awareness to how animal abuse is really a serious manner. I think we should also write to our state lawmakers or make a petition of some kind to punish those that do harm to animals for fun rather than for a special purpose such as for meat. We should tell our state officials. I think in Utah they do have some kind of felony. I will see. I like the idea for a walk to raise money and awareness for the animals. I think in Utah there are many pet owners who love their animals.

Tigger, I am sorry if you were offended here by talk of religion, but like Anne said, if it offends you...go to another thread.
No offense.

Oh, and I forgot to add, Hissy....I absolutely LOVED your post!!! Thanks for giving us more insight on this, I had forgotten about some of those, like the mule.
Dawn, no, I don't beleive animals have souls, but that doesn't mean they won't be in heaven.... if God even sees the sparrow fall, and created some of the animals just to be our companions, why wouldn't they be in heaven with us?
But I could be wrong. All of us could be wrong....noone truley knows what heaven is like, so we may all be in for some surprises, the main thing is that we ourselves get there!

No, no, No.... you didn't offend me by any means at all. I guess I shoulda explained! See, I am not a religious person, I just don't go to church, but I believe in God. You have to understand..... I have only been to church maybe once or twice, and that was either at X-Mas Eve or at the Catholic mass for when my grandmother died. And, I have never read the Bible, either. So, don't worry if you offended, me, because you didn't I was just stating my point!! I think there is so much animal cruelty now a days. I wish it would just stop. Anyways, I hope they really punish Queso's killers. Why don't they put all the crazed lunatics on their own seperate island and let them attack each other!

Hey Tigger, I like your idea! Survivor 5 can be a group of animal abusers stranded on a volcanic island.....the one who lives wins a life sentence in prison, the loosers win an eternal sentence to hell!

Lotsocats,

I like your idea.

Donna

I like the idea too!