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Search for WMD called off in Iraq

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Yesterday, the US quietly called off their search for weapons of mass destruction. They have admitted they were not able to find any. Considering that WMD was a large part (although not the only reason for) of the cause of the war in Iraq - how do you feel?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/01/12...rch/index.html
post #2 of 20
I'm not the least bit surprised, because I never accepted the government's arguments about WMD and ties to al Qaida.
post #3 of 20
While I'm quite sure I know the direction this thread will take, I'll start off by saying....

Hindsight is always 20/20.

At the time there was reason to believe that there were WMD's. Since then it was found that some of the intelligence was faulty, but there wasn't much reason to believe that at the time. Even the UN at the time didn't have a case that there weren't any WMDs.
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
While I don't agree with the war, I really can't fault them for acting on the intelligence they had at the time. The world was in a state of heightened security (and paranoia) at the time. In one sense the action taken was a method to help control paranoia, specifically in frightened Americans. America, as a culture, has been historically strong and unafraid, but 9/11 changed all of that and constant level of fear always seems to be hovering around.

However, having said that, I also feel that there were alot of "unspoken" reasons for the war (such as oil, show of international strenght, etc)
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
While I'm quite sure I know the direction this thread will take, I'll start off by saying....

Hindsight is always 20/20.

At the time there was reason to believe that there were WMD's. Since then it was found that some of the intelligence was faulty, but there wasn't much reason to believe that at the time. Even the UN at the time didn't have a case that there weren't any WMDs.
You seem to be forgetting Hans Blix and the other UN weapons inspectors. He was ridiculed by many elements in the U.S. media and government, and, incidentally, many people on this forum. Let's see - France and Germany weren't convinced that the "intelligence" was strong enough to justify an invasion and the consequent loss of life, but of course they were just being "cowardly". The "hindsight" remark is unjustified. A forum search will show you that.
post #6 of 20
When I heard Colin Powell talking to the UN trying to present the "case" for war, it always just didn't work for me. Always seemed smoke and mirrors and I like Colin Powell, and tend to trust him.

I just wonder how the soldiers feel. And the dead ones families. I thought Bush's insensitve (to say the least...) comic ideo about the "woops" missing
WMD's at that coorespondence dinner was so gross. But then again this is a man who thought if Goldwater was President we would have "won" in Vietnam cause we would then have bombed the crap out of the more populated areas, (don't even worry about winning the locals hearts and minds...no that is trivial)

Another bad thing is that they gave a Congressional medal of honor to Tenet, what is up with that? Mr "slam dunk" gets an award? he should just be lucky he doesn't get worse. And the soldiers don't get pay increases or even decent health care? It's sick.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
You seem to be forgetting Hans Blix and the other UN weapons inspectors. He was ridiculed by many elements in the U.S. media and government, and, incidentally, many people on this forum. Let's see - France and Germany weren't convinced that the "intelligence" was strong enough to justify an invasion and the consequent loss of life, but of course they were just being "cowardly". The "hindsight" remark is unjustified. A forum search will show you that.
Just remember that some of the intelligence that we used also came from the French and as for Germany and France (among other nations who were against the war, like Russia) there are allegations that they may have had kickbacks in the oil for food program (as some have alleged as high as the upper French Government), which some believe are the reasons why some of the those countries were against the war. I also remember hearing on the new that France also lost a lot of oil related contracts too, along with Russia which may have something to do with it. But it just depends on who you believe, what you read and what you believe. In fact, over all, I am surprised that the oil for food scandal hadn't been brought up in here and debated, even though the investigation is on going.
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
Just remember that some of the intelligence that we used also came from the French and as for Germany and France (among other nations who were against the war, like Russia) there are allegations that they may have had kickbacks in the oil for food program (as some have alleged as high as the upper French Government), which some believe are the reasons why some of the those countries were against the war. I also remember hearing on the new that France also lost a lot of oil related contracts too, along with Russia which may have something to do with it. But it just depends on who you believe, what you read and what you believe. In fact, over all, I am surprised that the oil for food scandal hadn't been brought up in here and debated, even though the investigation is on going.
There is an oil for food thread, look it up if you want to review it.
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
I just wonder how the soldiers feel. And the dead ones families.
These Soldiers Volunteered. No one forced them to sign there name. I signed my name away to the military. I knew what was going to happen like most of these other soliders, airman, sailors all have. There is no draft. Yes I’m sure the families are upset they lost their loved ones, but this is war… sorry. If I died, my parents would have been upset but accepted that I VOLUNTEERED. Remember, in the oath, you defend the “United States against all Enemies, foreign or domestic†and you follow the orders of the officers and the President of the United States. That is in the Oath. They don’t force you to take an oath. I knew that if I had to, I would die. *shrugs* I would do it again too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
But then again this is a man who thought if Goldwater was President we would have "won" in Vietnam cause we would then have bombed the crap out of the more populated areas, (don't even worry about winning the locals hearts and minds...no that is trivial)
Excuse me, this was done in WWII where the civilian populaces were leveled to almost nothing. This is nothing new in war. This also helped winning the war. Also in regards to Vietnam War, there were at times when they were NOT allowed to bomb enemy locations due to political pressures from members of congress and other sources. I know this for a fact since my father told me this. When Nixon ordered Linebacker I and II, that brought the Vietnamese to the peace tables. It was said that we dropped more bombs in that period of time then all of WWII. Btw, there was also talk about using a nuke but Russia didn’t want to hear about it, so it was never used. And btw, Winning the Hearts and Minds thing, this is war, you achieve your objective before worrying about everything else. Another reason why WWII in Europe went pretty quick, compared if we did a land invasion of Japan.

I’m also surprised that being a Colin Powell Fan, that you haven’t mentioned that he said yesterday that the troops will probably start coming home this summer.
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
There is an oil for food thread, look it up if you want to review it.
actualy I don't see it. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up again, like I said in my post... especially with what they are discovering... unless its salt on the wounds...
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
These Soldiers Volunteered. No one forced them to sign there name. I signed my name away to the military. I knew what was going to happen like most of these other soliders, airman, sailors all have. There is no draft. Yes I’m sure the families are upset they lost their loved ones, but this is war… sorry. If I died, my parents would have been upset but accepted that I VOLUNTEERED. Remember, in the oath, you defend the “United States against all Enemies, foreign or domestic†and you follow the orders of the officers and the President of the United States. That is in the Oath. They don’t force you to take an oath. I knew that if I had to, I would die. *shrugs* I would do it again too.



Excuse me, this was done in WWII where the civilian populaces were leveled to almost nothing. This is nothing new in war. This also helped winning the war. Also in regards to Vietnam War, there were at times when they were NOT allowed to bomb enemy locations due to political pressures from members of congress and other sources. I know this for a fact since my father told me this. When Nixon ordered Linebacker I and II, that brought the Vietnamese to the peace tables. It was said that we dropped more bombs in that period of time then all of WWII. Btw, there was also talk about using a nuke but Russia didn’t want to hear about it, so it was never used. And btw, Winning the Hearts and Minds thing, this is war, you achieve your objective before worrying about everything else. Another reason why WWII in Europe went pretty quick, compared if we did a land invasion of Japan.

I’m also surprised that being a Colin Powell Fan, that you haven’t mentioned that he said yesterday that the troops will probably start coming home this summer.
There is a hearts and minds part in wars like Vietnam and iraq where it's part theory, not direct threat. Particulary Vietnam when it was a civil war and we went in due to a "domino theory" that was largely human speculation, a theory that "one goes down the rest will"

WWII was a very different case.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
actualy I don't see it. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up again, like I said in my post... especially with what they are discovering... unless its salt on the wounds...
I can't remember the title...shoot will try. Or maybe...it was all part of another post, I will see if I can find the string.

The gist of it was: All organizations have scandal, doesn't make them defunct (or the US would have been a goner thousands over)

Saying that the reason a country didn't bomb the crap out of another country that isn't a direct threat was cause of a scandal and not just cause...mabye they didn't wanna...is nuts.

The fact still aren't all out about Oil for Food (just as they weren't about WMD) we need to wait and see.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
These Soldiers Volunteered. No one forced them to sign there name. I signed my name away to the military. I knew what was going to happen like most of these other soliders, airman, sailors all have. There is no draft. Yes I’m sure the families are upset they lost their loved ones, but this is war… sorry. If I died, my parents would have been upset but accepted that I VOLUNTEERED. Remember, in the oath, you defend the “United States against all Enemies, foreign or domestic†and you follow the orders of the officers and the President of the United States. That is in the Oath. They don’t force you to take an oath. I knew that if I had to, I would die. *shrugs* I would do it again too.



Excuse me, this was done in WWII where the civilian populaces were leveled to almost nothing. This is nothing new in war. This also helped winning the war. Also in regards to Vietnam War, there were at times when they were NOT allowed to bomb enemy locations due to political pressures from members of congress and other sources. I know this for a fact since my father told me this. When Nixon ordered Linebacker I and II, that brought the Vietnamese to the peace tables. It was said that we dropped more bombs in that period of time then all of WWII. Btw, there was also talk about using a nuke but Russia didn’t want to hear about it, so it was never used. And btw, Winning the Hearts and Minds thing, this is war, you achieve your objective before worrying about everything else. Another reason why WWII in Europe went pretty quick, compared if we did a land invasion of Japan.

I’m also surprised that being a Colin Powell Fan, that you haven’t mentioned that he said yesterday that the troops will probably start coming home this summer.
Also althought these soldiers volunteered, isn't it suppose to be when "necessary"? they are sent into harms way? I mean cause "we think there are WMD's" is that enough to throw you life at it?

Also, don't we need to be more careful about how we use our limited volunteers? I mean what if we did get a shock like an attack byNKorea to SKorea tomorrow, do we have enough troops to deal with it? Or are we just tied up in Iraq? I mean if they are calling up 60 year olds again, I would guess no!
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
Just remember that some of the intelligence that we used also came from the French and as for Germany and France (among other nations who were against the war, like Russia) there are allegations that they may have had kickbacks in the oil for food program (as some have alleged as high as the upper French Government), which some believe are the reasons why some of the those countries were against the war. I also remember hearing on the new that France also lost a lot of oil related contracts too, along with Russia which may have something to do with it. But it just depends on who you believe, what you read and what you believe. In fact, over all, I am surprised that the oil for food scandal hadn't been brought up in here and debated, even though the investigation is on going.
None of that changes the fact that no WMDs were found, or ties to al Qaida substantiated, or improper behavior on the part of Annan or his son proven. The current U.S. administration relies far too much on "smoke and mirrors". To be quite honest, I'm surprised that I haven't seen French, Swedish, and German newspaper articles entitled, "Eat Crow, Bush!". They're being too polite. Members of the CIA said before, and immediately after, the invasion of Iraq that they couldn't unequivocally state that Iraq had WMDs. There were suspicions, but no proof. Doesn't that give you, an obviously intelligent individual capable of critical thought, pause to think? The Bush administration has done its best to present the whole mess as an "intelligence failure" or "faulty intelligence", instead of admitting that the problem was that the slant they put on it, i.e., their interpretation of the data, was wrong? I know from your posts that you're an "Army brat" and veteran who has lived abroad. My background is similar - although the expression doesn't exist, I'm a "Marine brat", with extensive experience living abroad. My father, uncles, cousins and brother (okay, some of them served in the Air Force or Navy) taught me to be sceptical of the "official line", and that I had a duty, as an American citizen, to question the government's actions. Believe it or not, I do keep up to date on what is reported on "Faux News"; I feel that anybody who wants to criticize the so-called "left-wing" media outlets should accord them the same consideration.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
The fact still aren't all out about Oil for Food (just as they weren't about WMD) we need to wait and see.
So your telling me that the all of the hearings that the US Senate has had and with he UN being uncoopertive doesn't say much? Um, Ok. I guess Saddam getting 21 BILLION from the oil for food program isn't good enough. And that Saddam used pricing schemes to milk another 7-8 Billion out of the program along with the other alleged kickbacks to other countries (Namely, Russia, China, France to name a few, and yes I know there were a couple of American firms named). That was from the hearings, you can look it up too. But I guess thats okay... we have to wait...
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Also althought these soldiers volunteered, isn't it suppose to be when "necessary"?
Nope, that is NOT in the oath. Sorry. Here is the enlistment that all enlisted all members take:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
they are sent into harms way? I mean cause "we think there are WMD's" is that enough to throw you life at it?
Again, you follow order, otherwise your are punished and if nesscary, court martialed and thrown in prison, if in Wartime and it allows it, shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marge
Also, don't we need to be more careful about how we use our limited volunteers? I mean what if we did get a shock like an attack byNKorea to SKorea tomorrow, do we have enough troops to deal with it? Or are we just tied up in Iraq? I mean if they are calling up 60 year olds again, I would guess no!
I have no idea what the numbers are in South Korea, but the numbers were huge combined with South Korean troops (I hear 650,000 total). Btw, in 1994, we alsmost did have another Korean War but with more troop and supply movements, N. korea would have seen it and had the upper hand and attacked but I don't know for a fact what the troop strength is there if there was enough to repel or made it stable. I do know that in the past month 15,000 troops have returned to Korea from Iraq. However, I think the numbers are around 50,000 US there. I could be wrong.

And as for your statement calling up 60 year olds, sorry, that can't happen That statement is way beyond scarcasm.
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arg0
Nope, that is NOT in the oath. Sorry. Here is the enlistment that all enlisted all members take:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."




Again, you follow order, otherwise your are punished and if nesscary, court martialed and thrown in prison, if in Wartime and it allows it, shot.



I have no idea what the numbers are in South Korea, but the numbers were huge combined with South Korean troops (I hear 650,000 total). Btw, in 1994, we alsmost did have another Korean War but with more troop and supply movements, N. korea would have seen it and had the upper hand and attacked but I don't know for a fact what the troop strength is there if there was enough to repel or made it stable. I do know that in the past month 15,000 troops have returned to Korea from Iraq. However, I think the numbers are around 50,000 US there. I could be wrong.

And as for your statement calling up 60 year olds, sorry, that can't happen That statement is way beyond scarcasm.
They did call a 60 year old up, she was featured on 60minutes. I will see if I can post the story.

Well yes, the volunteer army is suppose to obey but come on...that's assuming the Pres is using sense, not just "God told me to, cause I am an drunk and all drunks go to God for a bit" I still say, if you had to go or your friends you would change your tune on this.
post #18 of 20
I will tell you this...there are only so many hours in the day. I do my very best to keep up with all sides of an issue, but there are some outlets I don't care to listen/read...one being NPR, another being CNN, one being Al Jeezera (unless there's something breaking and I feel it's important to check out what the Arab world is hearing...).

I tend to stay during the news day with MSNBC. I will take what I hear and research it on the net as far as I have time to. As for the perjorative comment of "Faux News" I do watch them. But not for news...for various opinion shows (and no, not O'Reilly).


Best-
Michele
post #19 of 20
Quote:
not just "God told me to, cause I am an drunk and all drunks go to God for a bit"
Wow. I must've missed that presser. Can you link where that was said?

Best-
Michele
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
None of that changes the fact that no WMDs were found, or ties to al Qaida substantiated
True, Mistakes were made. Just like in any war. I do find it interesting though that Al Qaeda is now supporting, if not out right financially supporting the insurgents there (I would not be surprised if Syria and other rouge nations are doing the same).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
or improper behavior on the part of Annan or his son proven.
As Marge has stated, its still currently under investigation. Read my prior post of what was Found. As for Annan and his son, the evidence is starting to mount and being reported on both sides of the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
The current U.S. administration relies far too much on "smoke and mirrors".
And what administration didn’t use smoke and mirrors? Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan and Nixon were just as good, if not better, especially Nixon. Heck I still remember Clintons famous quote, like we all do, that was great smoking mirrors. His wife didn’t know until he went on the air… Now that’s good smoking mirrors…

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
I know from your posts that you're an "Army brat" and veteran who has lived abroad. My background is similar - although the expression doesn't exist, I'm a "Marine brat", with extensive experience living abroad. My father, uncles, cousins and brother (okay, some of them served in the Air Force or Navy) taught me to be skeptical of the "official line", and that I had a duty, as an American citizen, to question the government's actions.
You know, I was taught the same thing. I worked on nukes, probably the most political military job you can get. You know what I was also taught? To follow orders. But yes, I even questioned certain memos or what have you but so be it, but we went ahead and did our jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
Believe it or not, I do keep up to date on what is reported on "Faux News"; I feel that anybody who wants to criticize the so-called "left-wing" media outlets should accord them the same consideration. It's highly insulting to be criticized for being too one-sided by members who obviously ignore any reports they won't read or watch because they've pre-judged the sources as being "too liberal"
First off if want me to be respectful of other news outlets, which I entirely do except one which I will keep it nameless, which includes watching the liberal media, and yes it does exists, like it or not, I would like you to stop calling Fox News “faux news†since they use nearly the same outlets like AP, Reuters and other major news outlets, along with their reporters. It reminds me when people were calling CNN the Clinton News Network. And oh yeah, I like Bill O’Reily… so sue me
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