Do I put him through the surgery or put him to sleep?

The results came back from the lab yesterday. Hans has calcium oxalate stones. The only thing they can do is surgery. I can only afford the non-invasive surgery - hydropulsion-something or other. They would inflate his bladder with water and then squeeze his bladder to empty it, which would force the stones out. (The stones are the size of poppyseeds.

Sounds straight forward. But here's the problem - Hans is, at the least, 14 years old. His former family didn't remember when they got him or how old he was at the time. For all I know he could be 16 or 17. He has serious arthritis problems in his back and tail - which are at times painful to the touch. He has rheumatoid arthritis in both of his front paws due to his former owners having him declawed. He has problems reaching all areas of himself to bathe. I don't know if putting him through anethesia and the pain of recovery, and the stress is the best thing for him. I don't want to keep him here if it's only going to get worse for him. There's also the chance the stones could form again, even with a specialized diet. So in a few months he'd have to have surgery again. Plus, I don't know his health background at all. For all I know he could have had this problem before, maybe even multiple times.

At the same time, he's such a sweetheart. He loves company, and he plays with the kitten. As long as a stone isn't trying to pass (he's got a pile of them) he's always used the litterbox. He's come so far in the past three months that I don't want to give up on him.

My other two cats are showing signs of stress becuase of Hans being ill and because I'm upset. I don't want to do that to them. What if Hans doesn't make a full recovery? He'd never be able to be in the same house with my boys, becuase they're all so rough with each other.

And there's always the finances. I'm tapped out, and it wasn't from a shopping spree, it's been from vet bills. I've known 20 people, all with cats, who have to spend barely a penny on their cats. I've spent close to two grand on three cats in six months. I can pay for the surgery with my credit card, but if there's another emergency with the cats, I won't be able to cover it for six months (until I get the card paid off.) With how many problems they've had in the past six months, I think it's a high probability that the next six months will create even more problems. I have no savings, that was spend on Merlin in the first month I adopted him. The only thing I own that I can sell is my computer, and I need it for college. The family refuses to let me borrow more money - I did that when I first brought Hans home.... I didn't get any X-mas presents, I asked for money, and with that I paid off the remainder of the vet bills. If the stones were to reoccur, I'd have to put him to sleep for lack of money.

I just don't know what to do. I refuse to speak to my family or friends about this. The first thing out of their mouths is "You've spent too much money on those dang cats, put the poor thing to sleep instead of spending more." I don't want my decision to be based on the cost. I want to base it on Hans' quality of life. Knowing how arthritic he is, and the fact that in a year he may be so crippled he won't be able to move. And the fact the stones may reoccur. And how dangerous it is to put him under anesthesia being so elderly. And not knowing his medical history. I have to wonder if the fact he
still so incrediblly sweet and freindly, and how far he has come in three months really can weigh more than the cons.

Please, if anyone can offer advice or an opinion, please share it. I just can look at this situation objetivey, and I don't want to make a selfish decision.

I don't know that I have any good advice to give. I hear that you are carefully assessing his quality of life, and it sounds to me as if he still has that.

All I can do is share that it was for calcium oxalate stones that we had surgical removal (they were huge, no other option) of when he(Tyler) was 14, about to turn 15. He's been doing well since, and I do believe in my heart that this was the right thing to do, he's a rather spry and young 15, one would never know his age to look at him.

I know there is a group that one can apply to for funds, I hope someone will post their name and addy here, as I don't have it.

I checked all the online groups I could find that help with vet bills, and I couldn't find any that were still taking applications. Even the shelter where I volunteer can't help because they don't have the resources or the finances to spare.

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

I know there is a group that one can apply to for funds, I hope someone will post their name and addy here, as I don't have it.

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I am so sorry that Hans is going through so much pain I am not sure if Pat&Alix is referring to IMOM.org I am still at work, but I will double check the address when I get home. This may be an organization that could be of some help..

Originally Posted by AniSkyofTrent

I am so sorry that Hans is going through so much pain

I am not sure if Pat&Alix is referring to IMOM.org I am still at work, but I will double check the address when I get home. This may be an organization that could be of some help..

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Thank you! That is the one I was thinking of.

I'm so sorry you're in such a tough spot. I wish I knew what to say, but all I can do is offer my own experiences & some info via links. And of course, my prayers for you & Hans

It's a sad reality that as much as we hate to consider cost, it is often very much a factor, especially when you have other pets to consider. I understand that pain very well, and my heart goes out to you.

Here are some links to some more financial assistance sites- perhaps they might help too?
Feline Veterinary Emergency Assistance Program
Veterinary Financial Assistance Organizations Links

If it helps you to know, our cat Oreo had surgery for stones this summer & came out just fine, recovering quickly - he's about 9 years old. Hopefully, giving a prescription diet specifically for oxalate stones after surgery would prevent recurrences.
Feline Oxalate Bladder stones
Feline Bladder Stones and Urinary Obstructions

Arthritis is a big quality of life issue too, though. Is your vet currently treating the arthritis? Does it seem to be helping? I've had good results using Cosequin & acupuncture in a cat with arthritis. But if he seems to be in pain & treatment isn't helping, that's an important consideration.

Here's a very thoughtful TCS article that it may help you to read:When Is It Time? - Making The Difficult Decision

My thoughts & prayers are with you & Hans

Here's another link from the Humane Society:

What You Can Do If You Are Having Trouble Affording Veterinary Care

i looked all over for financial sites when Mouse was going thru her stuff, & couldn't find any for my area. the ones i did find were in California, & most said they were dedicated to helping people w/AIDS. IMOM said they were not taking apps - this was only a couple of weeks ago that i looked. i don't think i looked at the last one tuxedokitties posted, tho.
good luck & prayers for you & Hans!

you are the one alone who has to make the decision regarding this. When you are in a situation like this, you have to consider all your options and weigh in as well about how the cat is doing?

You have to keep your reality in check. Make a list of pros and cons for each scenario. Look at Hans now, and weigh the options carefully. There is much to consider, and he is lucky to have you in his corner.

It is easy for some of us to make a judgement call in your situation, and type the words, let him live, or the words end his suffering.

But the bottom line is you are the one who has to make the decision, and live with the consequences, however you choose.

I get asked this question a lot in emails, how do I proceed, what do I do? I am so broke paying for vet care for this cat what would you do if you were me?

My answer is always the same. NO ONE can tell you what to do. NO ONE is in your here and now and living in your shoes. You have to make the decision based all all the facts you can gather, all the research you can do, then you have to search your soul and find the answer that brings peace-



Good luck-

I sat down and figured out a new monthly budget, and calculated in approximately how much of an income tax return I'll be recieving, and the cost isn't so much of a problem anymore. I can pay off my credit card in 10 months, which isn't as inpossible as I thought it would be. (IMOM isn't an option because my vet's office won't work with them to recieve payment. He's had a bad experiance with the orginazation and with people who tried using it in the past. He's been taken advantage of many many times. He's just a very generous and trusting man, and it took a new office partner to set new rules and keep him from going under financially.)

It's going to be around 500 dollars. He'll be sedated and monitored, then they'll take X-rays in between filling and emptying his bladder to see how many stones have been forced out. (He's got a nice little pile.) The cost could be a lot less if it only takes a few X-rays, or could be more if there's more problems.

Right now the decision is just about his quality of life. (And how my mom will react to me wanting to help him. There's going to be a screaming match tonight. She's never been a big fan of Hans.) I'm going to e-mail my vet tonight with questions on how Hans will react to anethesia at his age, whether or not the arthritis will hamper recovery, and what I can expect afterwards in terms of specialized feeding and how effective it is at controlling reocurrances. I was a little hysterical when I spoke to him on the phone, and I wasn't thinking clearly, so I forgot to ask.

He's not being treated for the arthritis. The vet wanted to rule out slipped disks and other problems first, and I really didn't have the extra money to cover X-rays and other tests. It's slowing him down a bit, but right now he's still able to wrestle with the kitten and body slam him without any complaints. Once he starts having problems with the steps or litterbox, or if he can't stretch up to the counters to try and get food, I'll get him to the vets for treatment. Sometimes I wonder if the soreness to the touch isn't from playing with the other two, and not from the arthritis itself. His front paws are starting to become deformed, but it doesn't seem to pain him to walk, yet. However, I don't know how fast his problems developed, and I don't know that he won't be in a bad state by the end of the year....

.. and I think I just talked myself into getting the surgery for him. I'm just terrified of my family at this point. The way they raised me was to always help animals, no matter what the cost. But I realized I got that from my grandpa, not my mom or grandma. I've realized that my mother "cares" about my cats, but she won't spend money on them. Our last cat went 8 years without even yearly shots, and my mom wondered why she died at 9 years. It's odd, I never thought about how horrible that was until I realized how much my mom is obsessed with not spending money. My aunt is the same way, her new dog is the first animal she's ever owned that she actually got fixed, and that was just becuse she couldn't deal with the thought of giving away another litter of puppies. Preaching to them just makes them furious. Asking them makes them furious.... "They're just animals." That's what I always get from them. I think I'll refrain from telling my mom about it until it's too late for her to do anything, and instead talk to my grandpa. At least if he thinks I'm nuts he won't say anything about it.

I'm still looking for advice on quality of life. Pat & Alix, your post helped a lot in realizing he can come out of this fine, even at his age. Thank you. AniSkyofTrent and tuxedokitties, thank you for the links and for the support, it means a lot to me.

Laureen, I feel ya. I hope that everything worked out okay with Mouse and it didn't leave you too far in debt.

Hissy, I do realize it's my decision, but right now I'm the only one I know who is saying "save him". It's a scary place to be, not having any support. I just wanted to know that someone else has done the same thing, and had it work out for the best. Please realize I'm fighting back at an emotionally abusive family. It's taken years to find my own voice, and I don't have trouble saying they're wrong now, as long as I'm not doing it by myself.

One more thought, from a nurse who treats humans and has had the occasion to ask this of a few doctors. IF you really TRUST your vet, professionally and personally I would ask him or her what would THEY would do if it was their beloved animal. Of course they have a right not to answer, but I've never seen a human doctor fail to answer that question. Good luck to you and Hans...BTW, I have a Franz, do you recall Hans and Franz from Saturday Night Live...gave me a giggle when I saw your babie's name. I hope it gives you one too as you need all the lightheartedness you can get.

Barbara

Originally Posted by wodesorel

It's a scary place to be, not having any support. I just wanted to know that someone else has done the same thing, and had it work out for the best. Please realize I'm fighting back at an emotionally abusive family. It's taken years to find my own voice, and I don't have trouble saying they're wrong now, as long as I'm not doing it by myself.

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I have the SAME exact problem! I am unabale to work and my family helps me out financially. I KNOW that money will not last indefinatly and I KNOW they paid off my last credit card bills and that I am only supposed to be charging what I can pay off in a month, BUT what do you do when your baby is ill? My family wants me to just let my babies go. No emergency Vets or other vets. I have been getting extra money at the supermarket so I can pay cash to the vet. I dread what my brother and sister are soon going to say when they look at my credit card bill. I pay for food for Me with the credit card and use the cash for the vets! <sigh>

We, I agree that you are the only one that can honestly make this decision..but, if you want opinions..based on what you said about your financial issues and this...

Knowing how arthritic he is, and the fact that in a year he may be so crippled he won't be able to move. And the fact the stones may reoccur. And how dangerous it is to put him under anesthesia being so elderly. And not knowing his medical history.

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This does not sound like a cat that will come out of this surgery ready for healthy and pain free life. You know he is already at least 14 and maybe older. You said he is already having other health problems not associated with the stones. So what happens when and if you get the stones taken care of? Are you going to keep trying to make a 14 or older cat free of arthritus too? Is it fair to him to go through all these procudures and pain because he is sweet? I guess you need to ask yourself if you are keeping him here for you or for him. What would happen in 6 months if one of your younger, very healthy cats got seriously hurt? Where would you find the funds to care for him?

My opinion, the baby has been through enough. I would probably put him to sleep.... Knowing, I would be keeping him around for me, and not him.

I know that is a hard decision to make, but if I was in those shoes described here...that would be my decision.

Good luck with whatever you have to do. I know first hand those decisions arer extremly painful.

Hans is lucky to have you in his corner:-). It is really tough when you feel like you are standing alone against the world trying to make the right choice and knowing that whatever you chose may have negative ramifications. This is an adult situation that many adults have a great difficulty addressing.

Regarding talking to your grandfather and not your mother - I think that is probably your best move. Talking to your mother will only make the both of you unhappy and she has already expressed her personal opinion on the matter. You are aware of what it is, but she isn't the one who has to make this decision, you are:-). You won't be able to change her mind and telling her will make an already stressful situation unnecessarily more stressful. Part of being an adult involves keeping your own council when necessary.

A trick I found helpful when trying to make a decision when other people kept trying to influence my choices was to try and look forward a year in time and see how I would feel then about the decision I wanted to make. I discovered that it was more important for me to know I had stayed true to myself -which included taking responsibility for the outcome of that decision (good or bad) - than it was to 'keep peace with my family' and letting their approval or disapproval influence my decision. Ultimately, your life is your own and not your mother's and you will make many decisions through your life with which she will disagree. That is part of growing up and is actually her problem. You don't necessarily need to make it yours. Is she complains, thank her for her opinion, tell her you appreciate her concerns but felt that you had to make the choice that you believed was right for you, and if it is different than her choice, you are sorry she feels that way, but you will accept the full responsibility of your decision as well. It is all part of the process of becoming a fully responsible and independent adult - and it is almost never easy.

Good luck at this challenging time, and good luck with Hans. I know you will make the choice that you feel is in his best interests after all things are considered.

Kathryn

Kathryn, it's rather funny, I had just come to the same conclusion about an hour ago. Mom had said earlier tonight - out of the blue - that I wasn't to spend any more money on Hans. I haven't even told her the vet called with an estimate. I'm going to have it done and tell her about it when he's safely home. I'm going to look straight at her and tell her "I'm not you. If I hadn't have done this I would have regreted it for the rest of my life".

I forgot I had made a promise to Hans right after his last family had dropped him off and he was hiding in the litterbox of his cage at the shelter, growling at anything that moved. I told him I'd take care of him. That I would do more for him than had ever crossed his last family's minds. I promised him a good home until he died of old age. It's my way of fulfilling the pact I made with Eby, our last cat. (We were going to torture each other until I moved out or she died of old age. It was our way of showing love to each other.) And I just can't justify putting him to sleep. It would be against everything I stand for. I just wish it wasn't my responsibilty. It's been two and a half years at college, and I can't even decide what I want my major to be. I feel like I have no right making a decision about a cat's life. So I'm going with what my heart and head is saying.

MrPig, those were my exact concerns. But Hans still has a lot going for him. His eyes are clear, his teeth are perfect and he still has all of them, and his blood profile came back above and beyond the vets expectations for a cat his age. I'll cross the arthritis bridge when I get to it. My gut feeling is that Hans will have three more years with this family. After I calmed down and started thinking, I realized that the good outweighs the bad in this situation.

Mom of Franz, I do remember that skit, and thank you for the laughter! The vet thinks that it's doable, as do the vet techs (some have working there longer than the new partner). They aren't saying it in so many words, but I can tell by the tone of their voices they're hoping I don't give up on Hans. They also know I lost three cats this year, one that I had to put to sleep two days after I got her. They were with me when I held her as she passed on. They know how I never got to say goodbye to the neighborhood stray who came to visit us off and on for the past 14 years. And they know how shocking it was when we found our last cat dead just hours after they told us there was nothing wrong with her. They know I'll do anything for my babies, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out if they omit some charges from the bill so I can better afford it. They've done it many times already.

MyBabies, have you considered a low-cost animal clinic or local shelter? There are great ones out there. The only local clinic here is staffed by vets who don't care how they treat animals (took our last cat there to get fixed and they butchered her), and the vets at the shelter were I volunteer are on my burn in heck list. (It's a long story involving that kitten I had to put to sleep.) I'd drive farther, but none of my cats are used to cars, and they get sick so easily. I'm lucky that the vet that has always been on the top of my list lives 5 minutes away from me, and he's one of the most reasonably priced vets in the tricounty area. I know what it's like not having money for vet bills; I can only imagine how hard it must be not having money for yourself. I really hope things turn around for you.

I'm going to call the vet's office in the morning and set up an appointment for him, hopefully for next Wednesday. (Only because I don't want to trouble my boss to make changes to the schedule this late. If I have to I will, though. She's been so understanding about me having my tonsils out and taking off the three busiest weeks of the year, I really don't want to bother her.) I can drop him off and pick him up while mom is at work. At least my best friend is still on winter break, so I won't have to sit at home by myself worrying like I did when Mer had his dental in August.

Thank you all so much for the support. I didn't know how to take the news, or how to proceed, and I needed other cat lovers to talk to and get advice from until I figured out what to do. This forum is a life-saver, in so many ways.

I'm really glad you found the support you were seeking..and hope to hear only good updates on Hans after his procedure

Originally Posted by Mom of Franz

One more thought, from a nurse who treats humans and has had the occasion to ask this of a few doctors. IF you really TRUST your vet, professionally and personally I would ask him or her what would THEY would do if it was their beloved animal. Of course they have a right not to answer, but I've never seen a human doctor fail to answer that question.

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I asked my vet that one when it was my old horse whose future was in doubt. I got an honest answer and it helped me to make my decision (not to have him pts - that day). I'm glad you've decided to have Hans have the op. Like you said, you'd regret it if you didn't try. Please let us know how you & Hans get on.

Sue

Originally Posted by wodesorel

Laureen, I feel ya. I hope that everything worked out okay with Mouse and it didn't leave you too far in debt.

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actually, she passed away (after i spent $1400 on her!). but i don't regret the $820 the last vet charged - he did all he could. i think $500 is a reasonable amount, especially if Hans is comfortable after that. my mother is like yours, but nicer - she understands how much my babies mean to me, but she also realizes that there's a limit to how much i can spend on them. my limit for Mouse was $2000 - i made that decision prior to getting her care, so i knew when to say enough. she made that determination for me when she said 'enough'.
good luck with Hans - keep us posted!

Wodesorel - I'm glad you came to a decision that gives you peace. I support you 100%. For what it's worth, if Hans were my cat, I'd do what you're doing.

Another 3 years, maybe more (it's not unusual for cats to live 20+ years these days, even with illness) with Hans is priceless.

Ask your vet about giving Hans glucosamine for the arthritis. My vet suggested it for my kitty when she was about 14 (she's 16 now) and beginning to have difficulty getting up and down the stairs. It worked wonders! She hasn't limped or been sore since. She takes 250mg glucosamine sulfate (HCL type is fine, too - both available at any vitamin/health food store) once a day.

All good thoughts, blessings and hugs to you and Hans!

I am sending much love to you and Hans right now. Please let us know how he's doing.