OK - here goes. We're adopting a daughter and she needs prayers.

You and Gary are with out a doubt, angels!

Laurie - I'm so relieved that you've heard from Naomi - it's a terrible nightmare that she and you are living through.

I hope this program is good for her and the start of the path to a happier, healthier life. The good thing is that she wants to be away from those bad things and treatment for he schizophrenia could make life without drugs more palatable for her.

Sending loads of positive vibes your way!!

Wow. What a tough road. Schizophrenia is a terrible thing. I certainly hope that she can get in a program and be helped. I would also be wary of any diagnosis made when she was high. There is a possiblity that she could "act" schizophrenic on drugs. I truly hope that is not her real diagnosis.

I'll keep you all in my thoughts!

I didnt mean that naomi should go to heaven.
I was just saying that my mother is going to be 54. she has already wasted nearly half of her life on alcohol.
At the rate she is going i dont see her living past 60.
Not sure about 55. My mother has let us down 3 times already.
We had to send her to a psysiactric clinic. because the first time
she was throwing chairs at me and trying to burn me with her ciggarettes.
She smashed the window (on the door because theres a glass on the kitchen door) my bf was really lucky because i dont know how but he just said quick hide she is about to smash it.. and she did and my bf was lucky that he didnt get cut because he stood right infront of it.

The second time was when she started screaming and neighbours were complaining and she kept on saying she was going to kill her self

the third time where she really did nearly jump out of the window.
I screamed and she was nearly out and my bf just grabbed her and pulled her back in.
we called the ambulance and they took her away.
she kept on telling everyone it was a joke what she did.
As mean as my dad is, he keeps on taking her back when he sees her sober.
although soon enough she will start drinking again.
It took her only 3 weeks and she was back onto the bottle.

Now im stuck with everybody telling me including lawyers and doctors that they cannot do anyhing for her and that she has to want it.
The only way we can force her is by taking her to court.
and take her "adultness" away. which means she has to go to a therapy program for a year

I dont know which option to choose.
One part of me is "let her be happy if she wants to drink"
and the other part is "but i love my mum when she is sober i dont want her to go im only 18 and i still need her"

I am sure you have so much love for naomi that is unable to describe.
But i hope that naomi doesnt let you down as much as my mother did through out these whole years.

When you have so much love for someone, the patience is unlimited.
you just keep on forgiving them, untill something bad happens and you blame your self for it because you think you could have made it better.
Where as in reality, you couldnt have changed it in any other way.

Originally Posted by fwan

I didnt mean that naomi should go to heaven.
I was just saying that my mother is going to be 54. she has already wasted nearly half of her life on alcohol.
At the rate she is going i dont see her living past 60.
Not sure about 55. My mother has let us down 3 times already.
We had to send her to a psysiactric clinic. because the first time
she was throwing chairs at me and trying to burn me with her ciggarettes.
She smashed the window (on the door because theres a glass on the kitchen door) my bf was really lucky because i dont know how but he just said quick hide she is about to smash it.. and she did and my bf was lucky that he didnt get cut because he stood right infront of it.

The second time was when she started screaming and neighbours were complaining and she kept on saying she was going to kill her self

the third time where she really did nearly jump out of the window.
I screamed and she was nearly out and my bf just grabbed her and pulled her back in.
we called the ambulance and they took her away.
she kept on telling everyone it was a joke what she did.
As mean as my dad is, he keeps on taking her back when he sees her sober.
although soon enough she will start drinking again.
It took her only 3 weeks and she was back onto the bottle.

Now im stuck with everybody telling me including lawyers and doctors that they cannot do anyhing for her and that she has to want it.
The only way we can force her is by taking her to court.
and take her "adultness" away. which means she has to go to a therapy program for a year

I dont know which option to choose.
One part of me is "let her be happy if she wants to drink"
and the other part is "but i love my mum when she is sober i dont want her to go im only 18 and i still need her"

I am sure you have so much love for naomi that is unable to describe.
But i hope that naomi doesnt let you down as much as my mother did through out these whole years.

When you have so much love for someone, the patience is unlimited.
you just keep on forgiving them, untill something bad happens and you blame your self for it because you think you could have made it better.
Where as in reality, you couldnt have changed it in any other way.

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Fwan - you're post brought tears to my eyes . You are a wonderful, wonderful daughter . I'm sorry that you, your dad and your mum have to live with this sadness.

I'm so glad she's safe. It really does speak loads about her desire to get straight that she checked herself into a detox program, and wants to go into an inpatient program after detox. If she were taking you for a ride, she would have just come back home like nothing was wrong.

Addiction is such a strong pull, and heroin is stronger than a lot of people. Add bipolar and possible schitophrenia on top of it, and it's no wonder her body/mind let go even after the worst of the physical sickness was over. This isn't about giving her "permission" to go back to the city and shoot up. Just what was Gary supposed to do when she was trying to jump out of the car going 60 mph? Beat her into submission?

I'm glad things went a little more forward, rather then just bad. Keeping you in my thoughts.

Laurie... just breathe in... take it one step at a time. Keeping you in thoughts and prayers. As I said again, you two are angels. If we searched for a million years all over the world, we wouldn't find two people like you.

Originally Posted by valanhb

I'm so glad she's safe. It really does speak loads about her desire to get straight that she checked herself into a detox program, and wants to go into an inpatient program after detox. If she were taking you for a ride, she would have just come back home like nothing was wrong.

Addiction is such a strong pull, and heroin is stronger than a lot of people. Add bipolar and possible schitophrenia on top of it, and it's no wonder her body/mind let go even after the worst of the physical sickness was over. This isn't about giving her "permission" to go back to the city and shoot up. Just what was Gary supposed to do when she was trying to jump out of the car going 60 mph? Beat her into submission?

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If she was in a program under lock and key sooner, she would not have been in the car and trying to jump out.

Has anyone considered doing it the old fashioned way and just locking her in a padded room for as long as takes so she can get it out of her system? Yeah its painful, yeah it sucks, and sure there is always the temptation to go back to the drug later (but thats always there).. but perhaps the memory of the experience would make an impression. She would have to "work" through it instead of going to sleep and waking up after a "rapid detox".

Perhaps I am just not feeling very understanding today or I do not fully understand herion (more likely), but I have seen people lie and use others so I suppose that has jaded me some. For me it comes down to actions not just words and "intent". Oh well, I am still wishing all the best for her and you two for trying to take care of her.

Cirque,. the unfortunate reality is that it would probably kill her. Heroin is so strong in its effects that one is more likely to die from a cold turkey quit because the heart and brain become dependant on it to function. That's not an option with heroin, when they're this addicted, at least. THat being said, they did try to find a program to detox her that would keep her locked up in a facility, the beds are full.

Originally Posted by Cirque

If she was in a program under lock and key sooner, she would not have been in the car and trying to jump out.

Has anyone considered doing it the old fashioned way and just locking her in a padded room for as long as takes so she can get it out of her system? Yeah its painful, yeah it sucks, and sure there is always the temptation to go back to the drug later (but thats always there).. but perhaps the memory of the experience would make an impression. She would have to "work" through it instead of going to sleep and waking up after a "rapid detox".

Perhaps I am just not feeling very understanding today or I do not fully understand herion (more likely), but I have seen people lie and use others so I suppose that has jaded me some. For me it comes down to actions not just words and "intent". Oh well, I am still wishing all the best for her and you two for trying to take care of her.

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The problem here is that Naomi is not a minor, and legally there is nothing anyone, not even her biological parents, can do. Locking an adult into a padded room for as long as it takes to detox is legally kidnapping, and if Naomi were upset enough, she could rightfully and legally press charges once she had access to a telephone...if she survived the cold turkey quit. She was a "large" user of heroin, which makes a cold-turkey quit that much more dangerous, and she has had seizures that placed her in critical care during past detoxes.

The other problem is that especially with heroin addicts and alcoholics, forced detox almost never works, which is why no psychiatrist, therapist or social worker trained in addiction problems recommends it. The user has to be committed to quitting.

It's easy to look at the situation and think we've been soft or functioning as "enablers." I certainly thought less of Gary's mom when I judged her as being "an enabler" when she was in a similar situation with Gary's sister. On the other hand, being in the situation now, as a parent, and functioning on the advice of trained professionals, I see it quite differently. We certainly provide(d) the space for Naomi to use heroin, but the other choice was to say "stop using or get out" - and that was not the commitment we wanted to make. The whole point of having her move in with us (apart from the fact that we're adopting her and already feel about her and think of her as our daughter) was to help provide the resources for her to get clean (when she was ready, which she supposedly was, though we knew that may not have been the case), to provide a motivation to get clean (some kind of life, like college) which she'd never had before - and to have her be healthy and safe, so she wasn't sleeping on the streets of NYC, and so she wasn't in a situation where she could be raped and assaulted again. (Part of the problem with heroin is that when addicted, people are willing to put themselves in positions where they can get raped or assaulted). We had no idea if she was actually ready to quit using heroin or not, and it didn't really matter. Even if she never wanted to quit, she was welcome to live here in safety.

However, if we ever suspected she is/was dangerous to herself or others, we could have an ambulance take her to the hospital where she would be evaluated - but if she was determined to have psychiatric problems, then she would be committed by the State, and no one other than the hospital staff would have any say about what happens to her. She could then be committed for as long as they want her to be, which is what essentially has happened.

Naomi did not have a correct understanding of the program she just committed to. The counselor never called last night, but did call this morning. She did enter herself into the program, but it is a combined detox/rehab program, and because she showed up with heroin in her possession, despite the fact that she entered the program voluntarily, because she was just in court for a possession charge and the "sentence" was detox and community service, showing up at this detox with heroin in her possession she's in violation of the case dismissal agreement, and her leaving the program is no longer voluntary.

Fortunately this program does include psychiatric evaluation and treatment. She hasn't been diagnosed yet, but we've talked to her psychiatist out here, and she said from what we communicated that Naomi will likely be diagnosed as a paranoid schitzophrenic - we already knew about the manic depression. So the staff will determine if she leaves the detox program after five or seven days, and then she's moved into rehab for anywhere from 28 days to nine months, at their discretion. She's on 20mls of Methadone (at her level of heroin use, an equivalent dose of methadone would be 80mls), and that will be scaled down to 15 while in detox, then from 15 to 0 over 28 days in rehab. How long after that they'll keep her, we have no idea. But it could be anywhere up to another eight months.

There is no visiting during detox; there is visiting three times a week in rehab, though we don't know which facility they'll transfer her to for rehab yet.

So while we didn't force her into a padded room and lock the door, Naomi took the step herself. She knew she was committing to the detox and one month of rehab. She didn't know that because of the circumstances they'd be able to keep her up to nine months. But either way she's got a fighting chance now of staying clean after she gets out of the program. We'd discussed her probable need for an in-patient rehab program, which she's never been interested in before (I mean before us - and we looked for "known" facilities at the recommendation of friends and doctors, and of course they're full with waiting lists...). So it would appear that this psychological break she just experienced provided the final motivation she apparently needed.

Gary's on his way to the Bronx now, dropping off some clothes and books, as she didn't leave prepared to be gone for a month (or more). She called shortly after Gary left, and I talked with her for a while. She sounded pretty good, actually. Certainly much better than yesterday. More importantly, she's really happy with the decision she made, and she feels like it's really important she be in an in-patient program so that's she's with other people going through it, she can get the therapy she needs and work to get her dosage levels right (whether it's lithium or paxil or whatever) while in a monitored environment, and she can vent any range of emotions and not worry about how anybody's going to feel. I agreed with her 100%, and told her how proud I am of her for doing this on her own. Which I also think is important.

Originally Posted by fwan

I didnt mean that naomi should go to heaven.
I was just saying that my mother is going to be 54. she has already wasted nearly half of her life on alcohol.
At the rate she is going i dont see her living past 60.
Not sure about 55. My mother has let us down 3 times already.
We had to send her to a psysiactric clinic. because the first time
she was throwing chairs at me and trying to burn me with her ciggarettes.
She smashed the window (on the door because theres a glass on the kitchen door) my bf was really lucky because i dont know how but he just said quick hide she is about to smash it.. and she did and my bf was lucky that he didnt get cut because he stood right infront of it.

The second time was when she started screaming and neighbours were complaining and she kept on saying she was going to kill her self

the third time where she really did nearly jump out of the window.
I screamed and she was nearly out and my bf just grabbed her and pulled her back in.
we called the ambulance and they took her away.
she kept on telling everyone it was a joke what she did.
As mean as my dad is, he keeps on taking her back when he sees her sober.
although soon enough she will start drinking again.
It took her only 3 weeks and she was back onto the bottle.

Now im stuck with everybody telling me including lawyers and doctors that they cannot do anyhing for her and that she has to want it.
The only way we can force her is by taking her to court.
and take her "adultness" away. which means she has to go to a therapy program for a year

I dont know which option to choose.
One part of me is "let her be happy if she wants to drink"
and the other part is "but i love my mum when she is sober i dont want her to go im only 18 and i still need her"

I am sure you have so much love for naomi that is unable to describe.
But i hope that naomi doesnt let you down as much as my mother did through out these whole years.

When you have so much love for someone, the patience is unlimited.
you just keep on forgiving them, untill something bad happens and you blame your self for it because you think you could have made it better.
Where as in reality, you couldnt have changed it in any other way.

Click to expand...

Fwan, I did misunderstand what you wrote, and I'm so sorry. Your post brought tears to my eyes too. Thankfully Naomi's never gotten violent with us, though it appears it could have been a possibility. I know, at least a little bit now, of the stress and fear and anger - and love - you've experienced. You are a wonderful daughter. I'm so sorry your mum hasn't found the strength to fight this.

It is great that she is actually IN a program now. Perhaps her having something on her was a blessing in disguise then if it means they get to keep her wether or not she wants to stay. It sounds like she is making some good progress this time around, good luck.

Wow. I'm more bothered about the "paranoid schizophrenia" diagnosis than the heroin addiction, to tell you the truth. You and Gary will be in for a rollercoaster ride for the rest of your lives if she is really schizophrenic. We've been dealing with a family member who is schizophrenic for 23 years, and it simply uses up all your reserves. People have kicked heroin addictions, but schizophrenia is something that has to be kept under control with medications, and they have to be constantly adjusted. There doesn't appear to be any fail-safe "cure". I know this is going to sound harsh, but both of you are going to have to determine your individual "breaking points", and do everything you can not to exceed them. For your own sakes.

just found this thread by chance, it's a fascinating read. I've never even been close to a situation like yours, in fact, i've never met an addict in my life.

In truth, i was actually going to say some words against you helping this woman you met, who's not related to you in any way. Something to the fact of: she'll rob you, don't trust an addict, don't trust a schitzo, better spend your money and time somewhere else, close to heart.

But in reading your posts, i've changed my opinion. It seems to me this IS close to heart, and you do sincerely understand that what you're doing will not have an immidate positive result, it may never have a positive result for that matter.

In any case, do you and Gary have any children of your own? I think you will make a wonderful mother, but without knowing your age, i can't say what's out there for you.

Just want to wish you all the best and good luck. You've gotten yourself in something which will probably last decades - and bring joy as well as tears, but you seem prepared and ready

Best Wishes!

Originally Posted by jcat

Wow. I'm more bothered about the "paranoid schizophrenia" diagnosis than the heroin addiction, to tell you the truth. You and Gary will be in for a rollercoaster ride for the rest of your lives if she is really schizophrenic. We've been dealing with a family member who is schizophrenic for 23 years, and it simply uses up all your reserves. People have kicked heroin addictions, but schizophrenia is something that has to be kept under control with medications, and they have to be constantly adjusted. There doesn't appear to be any fail-safe "cure". I know this is going to sound harsh, but both of you are going to have to determine your individual "breaking points", and do everything you can not to exceed them. For your own sakes.

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That was my reaction, too. My brother-in-law has paranoid schizophrenia. it is not an easy thing to deal with. The 2 months he lived with us one summer were really hard on me and my DH. It may seem easier than the drug addiction right now, but it really isn't. Do take care of yourselves.

Well, there's really no way for any of the Docs to make an actual diagnosis until she's clean. We spoke to her friend Peter who's known her for quite some time, and he's of the opinion that whatever mental disorder(s) she may have, other than depression they don't seem to exhibit themselves except during and just after detox.

The bottom-line is no one really knows. She definitely had some kind of freak-out - but whether or not it's an actual mental disorder or whether it's due to the detox/drugs, they really can't say.

Either way, Naomi is no longer some stranger we're "helping" nor some homeless person to whom we're providing a space to live. We expected a roller-coaster ride - though how "scary" the ride will be we have no way of knowing. I just know she's had every opportunity to steal from us and hasn't. She speaks degradingly of junkies that do steal. She's a vegetarian - and despite the fact she was destroying herself with heroin, all we've seen is someone who's very people-conscious and very health-conscious. I believe she became a heroin addict because that's what she saw at home, and she essentially "self-medicated" (unconsciously) to deal with her anxiety and depression about the state-of-the-world.

Schitzo or not, it seems to me like she's really trying to get clean - her current actions certainly seem to indicate that. It also seems she really wants to deal with her mental health. She called just a little while ago, and said she wanted our help in making sure they send her to a rehab where she'll get psychiatric treatment as well, because, as she put it "I was really going crazy, and I don't want to 'wake up' someday, realize I'm 30-something and crazy with no college degree or any hope of doing something useful with my life, let alone not be able to support myself. I'm trying to get OFF drugs, and I don't like the idea of using drugs just because they're legal, but I know that there are some mental disorders that can't be helped except with drugs. I haven't been willing to take the medication in the past, but I guess these things can get worse as you get older, so I'll do what I have to do."

Of course that doesn't mean she'll follow through - but it does mean there's a part of her that wants the help and is willing to take the medication, which also means there's always hope in the future if she doesn't follow through now.

Although I switched majors in college, in high school I did work with mentally retarded children and took college-level classes. I also majored in special ed initially in college, so thankfully I have some training in working with people with special needs - and I do, apparently, have infinite patience. Seems like that will come in handy over time.

You know there is such a thing as drug induced psychosis. Wonder if there's a chance that it is all a part of her addiction? Afterall, Heroin is a very VERY nasty drug.

Just remember..... it's all about "tough love" with addicts.

(My name is Tammie and I'm a recovering addict) 16 years clean, as a matter of fact!

Oh boy am I glad to hear she is OK!