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post #61 of 84
Thread Starter 
I read the sites a while ago. I still like asking questions here and the to the list. I like to hear input from actual people with examples that start, "When my cat..."

I looked at the KatKarma lists of food...couldn't find Purina ONE Senior. So I'm not sure how bad/good it is compared to renal foods.

Haven't started her on an pepcid ac or anything yet. She was eating quite well for the most part since starting treatment close to 2 weeks ago. This is the first time her appetite has been this low since starting treatment. And she has had no problems with vomiting or anything yet. And she does eat...she inhaled her old Purina that I gave her this afternoon. So...at least at this point...I don't think stomach acid is a problem. Am I wrong? Should I get her started on it anyway?

In anycase, I went to my vet and got a bunch of dry renal food samples. It sorta worked. I gave Angle some Purina NF...she ate it. Not quite as enthusiastically as her old Purina ONE...but nevertheless, she ate the Purina NF a little. She still refuses ALL her canned foods. I'm gonna have to try the other dry renal foods...

It's very odd. All her life, she preferred canned foods. Even just a week ago, she preferred canned foods. Now...she hates them. She'll eat non-renal and renal dry foods. But won't touch any of the various renal canned foods...or her old non-renal canned food.

This is pretty frustrating...
post #62 of 84
Perhaps this isn't the same Purina O.N.E., or I have an older copy of the KatKarma list and it's not on the current one, but the stats for Purina O.N.E. Special Diet (with a note that says it is not for CRF cats as it acidifies) dry food are:Protein 34.49 per cent, phosphorous .990 per cent, sodium of .20 per cent, and 16.24 per cent fat.

I would consider trying pepcid ac or what your vet prescribes, why not be sure that nausea or stomach acid issues aren't part of the problem? As they note on the crf list, if you do use pepcid ac, start at the lowest recommended dose.

When Patrick would no longer eat his prescription dry food, I began to feed him more canned, using the katkarma lists as he refused any prescription canned after one or two meals of them. I use the better rated fancy feast, nature's recipe rabbit and rice, am trying petguard rabbit and rice, and lower level friskies...not the best quality but if he'll eat it, I'm happy. Patrick was a 14+ lb. kitty, he now hangs out in the low 10's, I do not ever wish to see him below 10, and would prefer to get him to high 10 or 11 lbs.

When nothing I offer him works, I choose the best quality, lowest phos food, blenderise it and assist-feed him...for as many days as it takes to get him eating again. I am lucky in that Patrick is relatively compliant with this, though he hates it when I do so.

I've also when truly at my wits end, added in slippery elm bark syrup - it helped both with nausea/foamy white vomitting and constipation, and Patrick eats a lot better when he's not constipated.

I suppose I love the felinecrf.org site the best because it is by a list member, someone who has dealt with this (Tanya), and the advice is thus far more personal, and besides well researched and documented, has gone through many of the issues discussed.

Another point to consider, CRF kitties get into mouth ulcer issues, and it's very important to check that their gums aren't inflamed or that other dental issues are not bothering them. Treating Patrick's irritated gums then led to an improved appetite.

best wishes again to your kitty,
post #63 of 84
ps another list you can use though it is compiled for cats dealing with diabetes, which is more up to date is this one:
sugarcats dryfood list
There I found the following: Purina O.N.E. Chicken & Rice for Cats: per cent of calories from protein=30, per cent of calories from fat =33, per cent of calories from carbohydrates=37, per 100 KCAL, 0.4 gms of fiber and unfortunately they did not have the phosphorus in mg's or the calories per 100 gms for this food as they do for others.

The values on this list are based on an "as fed" analysis.

hth,
post #64 of 84
Thread Starter 
I went to Whole Food Market today to find some slippery elm bark. I found two different ones...one was a capsule but the capsules where HUGE!!!! There's no way my cat can/will swallow that! The other one was in liquid form...which seemed good. But when I read the contents, I don't think it's good: slippery elm inner bark (Ulmus rubra), spring water, and 25-35% pure grain alcohol usp.

Alcohol? That can't be good for CRF kitty, right?

I may just have to order online since those are the only two my local Whole Foods carries. Do you guys have any recommendations for a small kitty? Are there ones where the capsules are smaller than others? Or would you recommend that I get powder and mix it up? I think I want to get powder.
post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by celerystalksme
I went to Whole Food Market today to find some slippery elm bark. I found two different ones...one was a capsule but the capsules where HUGE!!!! There's no way my cat can/will swallow that! The other one was in liquid form...which seemed good. But when I read the contents, I don't think it's good: slippery elm inner bark (Ulmus rubra), spring water, and 25-35% pure grain alcohol usp.

Alcohol? That can't be good for CRF kitty, right?

I may just have to order online since those are the only two my local Whole Foods carries. Do you guys have any recommendations for a small kitty? Are there ones where the capsules are smaller than others? Or would you recommend that I get powder and mix it up? I think I want to get powder.
I'd get the capsules - which are hopefully filled with just plain slippery elm bark, and then follow the directions for making slippery elm bark syrup on Tanya's site (the dot org site), but that's because I don't have any trouble giving dropper meds to Patrick (I have a great med dropper for humans that is marked in teaspoons, where I can figure out a half teaspoon to give).

Depending on the dose of the large capsules, you can buy plain gel caps, in a smaller size and repackage the powder from the large ones, that's an option too

ps I agree, no need to give alcohol with your slippery elm! I bought my plain powder from catfaeries.com.
post #66 of 84
Thread Starter 
The repackaging sounds like a good idea. I just have to find some smaller empty caps. Whole Foods only had size 0 and 00.

The appetite thing is really driving me nuts. Today, Angel's appetite is even worse. She won't eat 4 out of 5 dry foods that I've gotten (4 renal, 1 normal)...and she won't eat of the 6 canned foods I've gotten (5 renal, 1 normal). The ONLY food she'll eat is the Purina renal dry food...but she only NIBBLES at it. Yesterday, I'd say she ate about 1/8 of a cup. Today, maybe 10 total pieces.

Yesterday, I also syringe fed 1/8 cup of blenderized canned food. And today, so far I've syringe fed her 1/4 cup of blenderized canned food. I'll probably give her another 1/2 cup or more today.

Cat nip, boiled rice, boiled chicken breast, even milk...she won't touch em. Haven't tried baby food yet.

The cyproheptadine doesn't do crap.

If this keeps up, I'm gonna have to syringe feed Angel's entire daily diet every day.

What's wrong with my kitty?
post #67 of 84
Have you tried the Pepsid AC? I recently joined the crf lists also and it seems many people have tried this medicine with good luck. I believe it is a 1/2 of a 10 mg tab once daily. It helps with nausea they often feel. It is also important to get her phosphorus levels down if they are over 6.

I've been lucky in that my crf kitty still has a good appetite if I interchange different low phos foods. However, I'm keeping a notebook on worst case scenerios. Another food that is easy to syringe and sometimes boosts the appetite is Science diet AD. A little goes a long way. That combined with the pepsid might help.

I'll be sending good thoughts your way!
post #68 of 84
Thread Starter 
I'm a little confused about Slippery Elm Bark...

At www.felinecrf.org, it says that SEB can be used to combat stomach acid problems. But this one person on the CRF list (Erika, aka ESID) told me that as far as she knows, SEB does nothing to combat stomach acid. She said she's been on the list for 2 years and has not seen SEB recommended for stomach acid. She told me to put my cat on pepcid...

I already starter her on SEB yesterday. Was that a waste of $8? Should I get her on pepcid instead?
post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by celerystalksme
I'm a little confused about Slippery Elm Bark...

At www.felinecrf.org, it says that SEB can be used to combat stomach acid problems. But this one person on the CRF list (Erika, aka ESID) told me that as far as she knows, SEB does nothing to combat stomach acid. She said she's been on the list for 2 years and has not seen SEB recommended for stomach acid. She told me to put my cat on pepcid...

I already starter her on SEB yesterday. Was that a waste of $8? Should I get her on pepcid instead?
I've used it for stomach acid issues as well as for constipation...I think I've mentioned it on the list, but maybe not...at any rate, Erika is wrong I believe that no one on the list has mentioned using it this way in 2 years! If you really want to know, ask DEG her opinion or one of the other long timers However, that said, Pepcid is often what is used, and frankly, I use both. The SEB I have is lasting forever, and pepcid ac bought in bulk from a costco is not expensive at the tiny dose that is given.

SEB is nutritious and frankly, will not hurt. Just keep in mind it can affect absorption of other meds, so do not give at the same time as meds.
post #70 of 84
Thread Starter 
After Angel's second set of bloodwork, the vet said that my kitty is slightly anemic (and might even have a slight heart murmur though she wasn't sure about that cuz my kitty heart was racing and it was hard to make things out).

Anyways, at the time, the vet didn't think either were a major concern...not enough to prescribe treatment or medication or anything.

However, I Angel's gums have gotten more pale. I don't think it's my imagination. Anyway, is there anything I can do about her anemia right now besides getting her on vitamin-b/iron supplements? I was thinking about getting her on Pet-inic...but I hear it has not folic acid. What specific product can I use on my cat to get her folic acid?

Or should I just follow my vets advice and do nothing for now? (She has another bloodwork scheduled for the end of January or beginning of February.)
post #71 of 84
If her gums are more pale, I would take her in earlier for another blood test. There is treatment for the anemia of CRF, but it is not without its risks, so they don't start it until needed. But paler gums could be anemia or it could be dehydration. At any rate, I would want the vet to see her to see if she needs more fluids or to be started on erythropietin. If your vet thinks that a vitamin supplement is needed he will tell you what is best. Usually prescription diets for CRF have added vitamins. Becky
post #72 of 84
I merged your threads because they go together subject wise and give everyone a complete picture of what is going on.
post #73 of 84
Thread Starter 
Well, I finally got a copy of Angel's bloodwork numbers (from 12/14 and 12/24)...I don't know what they mean, so hopefully some of you guys can tell me how good/bad she is doing. I'm not sure what numbers to post...so I'll post them all (with the normal range in paranthesis). Some values had no reference range indicated. If I'm posting too much junk, please let me know which numbers to post from now on! Thanks!

Numbers BEFORE treatment (12/14)

ALK Phosphatase: 11 (0-62 IU/L)
ALT (SGPT): 55 (28-76 IU/L))
AST (SGOT: 26 (5-55 IU/L)
Albumin: 3.1 (2.3-3.3 g/dL)
Total Protein: 7.8 (5.9-8.5 g/dL)
Globulin: 4.7 (3.6-5.6 g/dL)
Total Bilirubin: 0.2 (0.0-0.4 mg/dL)
BUN: 67 (15-34 mg/dL)
Creatinine: 4.1 (0.8-2.3 mg/dL)
Cholesterol: 146 (82-218 mg/dL)
Glucose: 116 (70-150 mg/dL)
Calcium: 11.4 (8.2-11.8 mg/dL)
Phosphorus: 7.1 (3.0-7.0 mg/dL)
Potassium: 4.0 (3.9-5.3 mEq/L)
Sodium: 151 (147-156 mEq/L)
A/G Ratio: 0.7 (0.4-0.8)
B/C Ratio: 16.3
NA/K Ratio: 38
Hemolysis Index: 11 (<200)
Lipemia Index: 2 (<500)
WBC: 10.5 (4.2-15.6 Thousands/uL)
RBC: 7.61 (6.0-10.0 Million/uL)
HGB: 11.5 (9.5-15 g/dL)
HCT: 33.8 (29-45%)
MCV: 44 (41-58 fL)
MCH: 15.1 (11.0-17.5 pg)
MCHC: 34.0 (29-36 g/dL)
Neutrophil SEG: 43 (35-75%)
Lymphocytes: 50 (20-55%)
Eosinophil: 7 (2-12%)
Auto Platelet: 55 Thousands/uL
Absolute Neutrophil SEG: 4515 (2500-12500 /uL)
Absolute Lymphocyte: 5250 (1500-7000 /uL)
Absolute Eosinophil: 735 (0-1500 /uL)
T4: 1.1 ug/dL
Heartworm Antigen: Negative

Numbers AFTER treatment (12/24):

ALK Phosphatase: 12 (0-62 IU/L)
ALT (SGPT): 56 (28-76 IU/L))
AST (SGOT: 25 (5-55 IU/L)
Albumin: 2.9 (2.3-3.3 g/dL)
Total Protein: 7.4 (5.9-8.5 g/dL)
Globulin: 4.5 (3.6-5.6 g/dL)
Total Bilirubin: 0.2 (0.0-0.4 mg/dL)
BUN: 37 (15-34 mg/dL)
Creatinine: 2.7 (0.8-2.3 mg/dL)
Cholesterol: 139 (82-218 mg/dL)
Glucose: 109 (70-150 mg/dL)
Calcium: 10.4 (8.2-11.8 mg/dL)
Phosphorus: 3.4 (3.0-7.0 mg/dL)
Potassium: 3.2 (3.9-5.3 mEq/L)
Sodium: 151 (147-156 mEq/L)
A/G Ratio: 0.6 (0.4-0.8)
B/C Ratio: 13.7
NA/K Ratio: 47
Hemolysis Index: 27 (<200)
Lipemia Index: 8 (<500)
WBC: 12.6 (4.2-15.6 Thousands/uL)
RBC: 6.34 (6.0-10.0 Million/uL)
HGB: 9.7 (9.5-15 g/dL)
HCT: 28.1 (29-45%)
MCV: 44 (41-58 fL)
MCH: 15.2 (11.0-17.5 pg)
MCHC: 34.3 (29-36 g/dL)
Neutrophil SEG: 38 (35-75%)
Lymphocytes: 52 (20-55%)
Monocytes: 3 (1-4%)
Eosinophil: 7 (2-12%)
Auto Platelet: 32 Thousands/uL
Anisocytosis: Slight
Poikilocytosis: Slight
Absolute Neutrophil SEG: 4788 (2500-12500 /uL)
Absolute Lymphocyte: 6552 (1500-7000 /uL)
Absolute Monocyte: 378 (0-850 /uL)
Absolute Eosinophil: 882 (0-1500 /uL)
T4: 2.4 ug/dL
Heartworm Antigen: Negative

TREATMENT: 100mL lactated ringer solution daily...1mL AlternaGel twice daily...370mg Slippery Elm Bark daily...renal diet (syringe feeding about 3/4 of a can daily...she has begun eating a LITTLE bit of her dry renal on her own). I am supposed to give her 2mg of cyproheptadine twice daily...but I stopped when she stopped eating despite the cypro.

Also, I'm waiting on some vitamin B + iron supplements to arrive in the mail to
help her slight anemia.

If you have any comments, insights, suggestions...I'd LOVE to hear them!!!!

Thanks!
post #74 of 84
All I can say is Yay! that her BUN & Creatinine levels dropped so dramatically.

That's a very good sign - she may be with you for a long time yet.

You are checking out the sites & lists Pat mentioned, right? They have a wealth of information & support - I wish I had known about them when my CRF kitty was diagnosed years ago.
post #75 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties
All I can say is Yay! that her BUN & Creatinine levels dropped so dramatically.

That's a very good sign - she may be with you for a long time yet.

You are checking out the sites & lists Pat mentioned, right? They have a wealth of information & support - I wish I had known about them when my CRF kitty was diagnosed years ago.
I've been reading a posting in the Yahoo group that Pat recommended for a little while now. Some of those people really know a lot! They're great! I just hope I don't get too annoying by asking too many stupid questions!

Angel seems to be doing okay...not great, but okay...so i guess the numbers sorta back that up! I just wish she'd eat more on her own...that'd make me happy beyond belief!
post #76 of 84
Just a quick thought (btw I think you are both doing great), if Angel will not eat the canned you got from the vet will they refund you? I know with the stuff I get, canned Hills m/d, if Mischa didnt like it, if I took it back I could get a refund. We took back the m/d dried cos it made her sick and there was no questions asked. Apparently it is a policy of Hills.
dont know what renal canned you are using but if it is Hills you could ask? 'Every little helps' as they say.
post #77 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulip2454
Just a quick thought (btw I think you are both doing great), if Angel will not eat the canned you got from the vet will they refund you? I know with the stuff I get, canned Hills m/d, if Mischa didnt like it, if I took it back I could get a refund. We took back the m/d dried cos it made her sick and there was no questions asked. Apparently it is a policy of Hills.
dont know what renal canned you are using but if it is Hills you could ask? 'Every little helps' as they say.
oh yeah, my vet clinic will take back anything that i bring back. or exchange it for something else. but i just get two of everything hoping that SOMETHING will spark her appetite!

but she's really adamant about no longer eating canned food. her appetite for her dry renal food has picked up a little...but not nearly enough.

i'm gonna find some cat-friendly tuna juice and give that a shot. maybe if i sprinkle it on some of the foods she'll take to it!
post #78 of 84
One thing I would like to caution you about. Experimenting with food on a seriously ill cat without the knowledge of your vet should not be attempted. Prescription diets are fed on a temporary basis to help cats get over a crisis point, and so you need to stick with what the vet recommends. You can add to the prescription diet, but again, it needs to be the only food source and it is always temporary. Once they get past the crises point you can then experiment with other foods, with your vet's knowledge-


Good luck
post #79 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hissy
One thing I would like to caution you about. Experimenting with food on a seriously ill cat without the knowledge of your vet should not be attempted. Prescription diets are fed on a temporary basis to help cats get over a crisis point, and so you need to stick with what the vet recommends. You can add to the prescription diet, but again, it needs to be the only food source and it is always temporary. Once they get past the crises point you can then experiment with other foods, with your vet's knowledge-


Good luck
Oh, i'm not really experimenting. I mean I am...but only with the foods my vet said was OK...so I have in my possession about 8-9 different renal foods that I got from the vet. And I still have Angel's old canned and old dry food as well...which the vet said I might trying mixing in with the renal foods to spark her appetite.

I've tried sprinkling cat-nip on her various foods without vet knowledge...and If I trying sprinkling feline-friendly tuna juice, it will be without the vets knowledge. But the CRF list doesn't seem to think either of those is a problem whatsoever. And I think I trust them.

As for temporary...from what I understand, this renal diet is permanent...have I been misinformed?
post #80 of 84
Wow! I would love to have MY cat have YOUR cat's BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels. I wonder why she doesn't want to eat???? Did they ever do x-rays or ultrasound of her abdomen?
post #81 of 84
That was a dramatic improvement! Especially re the creatinine! My one observation is that her just normal potassium level dropped to a bit below normal. I'd ask the group if they feel you should ask your vet about supplementing the potassium (so much fun...you don't want low potassium, you do want lower phosphorus )

You are really doing an excellent job..and yes, renal food or special dietary approach will always be necessary to take as much stress as you can take, off the kidneys.

Inappetance is such a puzzle with crf kitties, I've tried *many* approaches with Patrick! Besides tuna juice, you can try shaved bonito flakes...either the 'for pets' Kitty Kaviar (and the knock-offs) or simply go to an Asian market and get their dried bonito flakes (used to make broth...ever watch Iron Chef? The handfuls of pale yellow fish flakes that goes into one chef's "broth of vigor" are simply bonito flakes )

No matter how icky Patrick feels there are 3 things he will always eat a bit more of when they are sprinkled atop his food - kitty kaviar, rosie's rosedust and wildside salmon. All 3 *are* high protein, but nothing else - no added carbs or preservatives etc., they are good quality protein, and just a bit of any of these 3 will work for Patrick (I crumble the freeze-dried cubes of wildside salmon).
post #82 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTCat
Wow! I would love to have MY cat have YOUR cat's BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels. I wonder why she doesn't want to eat???? Did they ever do x-rays or ultrasound of her abdomen?
the vet felt around her abdomen for hard stool or obstructions...she said she didn't feel anything. and Angel has been pooping pretty regularly. vet didn't do a x-ray or ultrasound though. what would they be used to detect?

she acts hungry...and eats a teeny bit of dry food. not sure why she all of a sudden detests canned food.

luckily, she's really become very cooperative to syringe feeding. she hardly struggles at all anymore. and she swallows every last bit instead of trying to spit it out. so at least that's good.

i'm gonna have to bring up her appetite again at our next appointment in a few weeks if Angel's appetite doesn't REALLY pick up...
post #83 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat & Alix
That was a dramatic improvement! Especially re the creatinine! My one observation is that her just normal potassium level dropped to a bit below normal. I'd ask the group if they feel you should ask your vet about supplementing the potassium (so much fun...you don't want low potassium, you do want lower phosphorus )
Another mentioned that as well. I wonder though...could the low potassium be normal for my kitty? OR could the low potassium be caused by something other than CRF?

The reason I ask is...when I went to the vet today to ask for copies of her bloodwork, they gave me copies of ALL her bloodwork. That includes stuff from 2003, 2002, etc. Her potassium has been slightly in the lower range in all her bloodworks...even before showing any signs of CRF.

What's up with that? Any ideas?

But I'll definitely bring it up with the vet...see what she thinks.
post #84 of 84
I just caught up on email and saw the responses you got...all I know is there is an optimal potassium level for crf kitties...so no matter what she was before, it needs to be dealt with now. Muscle wasting is something you want to try to prevent or minimize as much as possible.

I am still learning from the folks on that list! I noticed they brought up CO2, and determining if metabolic acidosis is involved or not, and what to check to be sure it's not, and I had not even thought to mention that re your lab results.

The U/S would allow a look both at the size and shape of the kidneys, plus a good look at the intestines as well.
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