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Fahrenheit 9/11 - Page 2

post #31 of 47
Originally Posted by Marge
I believe it is documented that planes carrying member of the bin Laden family did leave the US right after 9/11, no other planes were allowed to leave.
Do you have the facts and documentations supporting this statement? Any links? An no I'm not counting Michael Moore's movie.
post #32 of 47
Originally Posted by Marge
Wait a minute, the Presiden of the United States hears there is an emergency and sits and reads some 8 year olds a book? I can't dismiss that.
When *I* heard, I immediately started to looking for more information, Iinformed my co-workers, very carefully, but IMMEDIATELY. I discussed at great length whether or not I should close the center where I work. I was in shock but doing something too, and at that time they didn't know where the last plane was, I was even looking up in the sky cause they said it was bound for LA (I like in Northern CA). He continues to blythly last to the press. I'm sorry that is really odd. What is wrong when we accept really out of it behavior during a crisis from the most powerful man in the world?
As for what Bush did, I fully remember that he was appalled by American public. They, meaning the US government, didn’t know what the heck was going on at the time. I know that for a fact since I did talk to a friend of mine when the stuff was hitting the fan. It was 15-30 minutes later that bases worldwide shutdown immediately to all access, including a friend of mine who is a Senior NCO in a mission critical position, who could NOT get on base when he got the phone call to come in and report. The president DOES have advisors that find out more information for him. Okay, so he reads 8 year-olds a book. What was he supposed to do, storm off and just stand around and start asking questions? No, people were already doing that for him. That’s what they are there for. He always has his advisors with him for the most part, if not he can be up-linked rather quickly. I know this since I also knew someone who was in the Air Force, like me, that was a part of the White House communications during the Clinton/Gore era. I was told briefly what the capabilities are, including what I knew in a during a SIOP situation. When I was in the Air Force and in my job that I had to know what the president does in a NATIONAL emergency. My job required it. Okay, there weren’t warheads streaming toward us, otherwise he could have been escorted off the stage rather quickly, but they didn’t know if it was an accident or otherwise. What he did was normal until the situation arose for him to leave. Heck they didn’t know if it was a terrorist bombing on the first WTC attack until an hour or so into the situation during the Clinton Administration (I was in the military at that time and we were put on alert but only about 20 minutes after the fact, but that decision was NOT by the president, it was by our HIGHER ups. What the President did was in my book okay. But once other things occurred he was lifted off on Air Force One and taken else where besides the DC area, which is normal for ANY such occurrences. The Congress was at that time also being evacuated to Mount Weather at the same time since they didn’t know what to expect, which hence why Bush went to Offut AFB in Nebraska into a bunker. I know what was down there and what he was doing, but he was DOING HIS JOB. In a nutshell, he was getting briefed by his national security advisors, the Joint Chiefs and many others about the on going situation. He also may have been picking targets incase there was a NucDet recorded on US Soil. What he did was par for the course. This is normal for all presidents, not just Bush. From what I understood, Clinton had a hard time understanding what SIOP procedures were, but when I was 18, 6 months out of graduation of high school, I understand fully of the whole operation. I know that to be FACT btw.

If Michael Moore or anyone else doesn't understand National Security or have the time to research the procedures, then I don't know what the say. This is all I will say on this subject since being it is off-topic to a point.
post #33 of 47
Originally Posted by valanhb
I support him because he's a man of his word. Because he has the juevos to go after the bad guys because he feels it is the right thing to do, even if it means his popularity rating goes down because of it.
Yeah, he did what HE wanted to do, not what the majority of Americans or people of the world for that matter wanted him to do. He just followed his own personal little system of ethics. He seems to be forgetting that America is not a dictatorship, and he is not King Bush. I can't believe people were talking about impeaching Clinton for adultery, but everyone seems to be okay with Bush ignoring the Constitution (Seperation of Church and State NUMEROUS times), and blatantly ignoring the wishes of the UN and his own people.

During this war, he changed his reasoning for attacking several times. First it was all about 9/11, then when he could find no proof that Iraq had anything to do with it, it was about finding WMDs, then when we weren't finding any, he started talking about how this is some sort of humanitarian war to free the people of Iraq. What a crock. He just wanted to flex his muscles, and he has killed thousands of people in the process.

And then he has the gall to cut benefits to retired vets, and is now working on cutting benefits to current soldiers. My husband's grandfather fought and was injured in WWII and Korea. In the mail several months back he recieved two letters: one, a letter of commemoration that he would be listed on the new WWII wall in D.C., and two, a letter than his Vet benefits were being cut. Ironic.

This is just a tiny portion of my problems with this man, if you can call him that. I could go on all night, but my blood pressure is rising just talking about this much. IMHO this is the worst administration in American history.

post #34 of 47
Since People are bringing up the anti/pro-Bush rhetoric, I think I'll put in my 2 cents.
I am of the very UNPOPULAR opinion that electing a bush into the white house once more put the wheels in motion on this one. Every time there is a bush in the white house, we're at war with Iraq (which I don't think that the fact it's one o the largest petrol exporters in the world has anything to do with at all....right, note sarcasm). I don't think much more of Bush than him having Cheney's hand up his arse, but again, that's my opinion.
All the same I'm certainly not going to see this sensationalist film.
post #35 of 47
Originally Posted by valanhb
I support him because he's a man of his word. Because he has the juevos to go after the bad guys because he feels it is the right thing to do, even if it means his popularity rating goes down because of it. Because of his tax cuts (which, by the way, I have gotten benefit from and I am FAR from wealthy!), the economy is recovering from 9/11 and the recession that was starting before 9/11 and plumeted following.

OK, the man is not perfect and I don't support everything he has done in office. I don't like a lot of things about the Patriot Act. I'm not some blind follower, I have my own opinions. I don't like the ban on the stem cell lines, I don't like his stance on gay marriage. He isn't the same kind of leader Reagan was, which was much more than "smoke and mirrors". He ended the Cold War for goodness sake, AND got this country out a financial hellhole. He doesn't have the charisma of Clinton. But given the circumstances of his Presidency, I think he's doing a pretty good job overall.

My thoughts exactly...I will reelect President Bush. He is doing what he feels is right--that's what I have gathered atleast.

Also, it doesn't matter who is in office-there will always be terrorism to deal with.
post #36 of 47
Originally Posted by Aquarius
I can't believe people were talking about impeaching Clinton for adultery...
Let's not re-write history here. Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath at a trial. The subject happened to be adultery. That's a crime for anyone to do, it's called perjury. While they tried to, and succeeded, in focusing the issue on the relationship with Monica, the real issue was perjury.
post #37 of 47
Thread Starter 
thanks for sharing those thoughts. I agree that I think he believes he did the right thing invading. You know I was actually for this war at first. It's so embarressing how it was handled though. Our standing with the world right now is SO bad due to the arrogance of his administration. And I am convinced now they didn't care about diplomacy and getting an international community into Iraq.

Also you may have had a small tax break, but remember the upper one percentile (I hear 30 percent of Americans think they are in the upper one percentile...but it's the multi millionaires...) got the most. Now is that fair?
And the military is under paid and dying?

I don't think he is a bad man, I don't think he knew about 9/11 ahead of time. I dont' think he means harm, but I think he isn't in charge, I don't think he is very intelligent. And I think we need to get a new leader in there to rebuild relationships with the world.
post #38 of 47
To get back to the film, CNN has an article today with comments by Moore himself, and some reviews. http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movi...ilm/index.html
post #39 of 47
Thread Starter 
I just saw it. He never says Bush knew about 9/11 ahead of time. He does show how close to the Saudi's he and his Dad are. That can't be disputed. There were Saudi interests in the Carlyle group that his Father was invovled with for instance. He does state, which interviewees back up, that the bin laden family was shuttled out on or around 9/13/01. Also that a friend of W's, whose name was on his miliary records but blacked out later, turned into a big supporter of W's first business venture. This gentleman is....yes... the financial organizer in Texas for the bin laden family (who yes, are big but not that big)

The thing he does that is the best is he puts a human face on the soldiers. He also shows that who is fighting this war and paying for it in losses are poor families. He shows a chilling scene of Military recruiters going out to strip malls in poor areas and "selling" military service to young men and women. First some kids talk of how they do it by approaching them and then selling it, he THEN he shows them actually doing this. They don't choose to go out to the wealthier areas to recruit.

I think the most profound moment though is when a Mother who has just lost her son reads his last letter to her. The son is no fan of Bush by the way, he hope the "fool" isnt re-elected.

I think everyone should see it, even if you support Bush just go. I mean the music is good and it's well put together. And you can go, know what it *actually* does say, and can blow it off. If you aren't a supporter you will have more resolve.
post #40 of 47
Well, I guess because Michael Moore says so, it is gospel
post #41 of 47
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by jcat
To get back to the film, CNN has an article today with comments by Moore himself, and some reviews. http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movi...ilm/index.html

Also yes, it's a well made film. I don't have a lot of patience with badly made movies so it's nice to be able to appreciate too a well edited piece, uses humor well to balance the heavy. It's just great. I can see it winning at Cannes. The last shot alone is worth the price of admission. I swear I can't get it out of my mind!!!!
post #42 of 47
Thread Starter 
Hissy...no...but if Bush says it is gospel? The point is NO ONE speaks the gospel. Bless Michael Moore for have the balls to speak his mind, and bless him for dedicating it to the troops.

Bless free speech, bless democracy and bless America. I want it to be all it can be. And we are missing the mark now.
post #43 of 47
nah we probably wont see it
post #44 of 47
Originally Posted by Marge
...Bless Michael Moore for have the balls to speak his mind, and bless him for dedicating it to the troops...
Agreed. It happened during Vietnam, and it is happening again. Many American troops are giving the ultimate sacrifice just to be able to get a college education and a better job for the future. But they know very little about this war; they've only been told what the government wants them to know, which can explain why so many people are disillusioned by this war.
post #45 of 47
Originally Posted by hissy
Well, I guess because Michael Moore says so, it is gospel
Well, Bush thinks he wrote the gospel.... I'll put my buck in Moore's church basket anyday!
post #46 of 47
Pass! You know, hm. I think I'll stay out of this one
post #47 of 47
still no interest in watching it....
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