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Humiliation of the Iraqi Prisoners....

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
I don't condone the humiliation done to the Iraqi prisoners, in fact, I think it was downright sick. I recieved the following in my email today, and was wondering what the rest of the Catsite community felt about it. Do you agree, or disagree? I think the gentleman who wrote it made some very valid points, but I do not think they justify the actions toward the prisoners.


"I am not condoning what happened to the Iraqi prisoners...however, I think it is vitally important that in my head I have these matters in proper perspective...

Saddam had Iraqi men, women and children put to death in human meat grinders on a daily basis...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Saddam had people thrown off of 3 - 4 story buildings, while their relatives were forced to watch...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Saddam had people's tongues cut out, limbs chopped of, and even beheaded, while their families were forced to watch...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Saddam's sons, as well as other Administrators and military personnel raped and sodomized Iraqi girls, some as young as 8 years old, on a daily basis...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Saddam's regime indiscriminately put to death millions of Iraqi citizens on a daily basis, during the term of his brutal dictatorship, as evidenced by the mass graves recently uncovered in various parts of Iraq...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Terrorists recently exploded several car bombs in Baghdad, killing 17 innocent Iraqi children and several dozen innocent Iraqi citizens...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Terrorists have been killing American/Coalition soldiers on a daily basis since we sent our troops, many of whom gave their lives on Iraqi soil, used US taxpayer dollars to liberate the Iraqi people...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

Four Americans were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were burned, mutilated, drug through the streets and hung on a bridge...while Iraqi people cheered and stoned the bodies...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...

AND NOW, A FEW IRAQI PRISONERS HAVE BEEN HUMILIATED (poor babies)... A PAIR OF WOMENS UNDERWARE PUT ON THE PRISONERS HEADS, A FEW NAKED PHOTOGRAPHS... AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE AND THE ENTIRE ARAB COMMUNITY GO
BALLASTIC... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

As I said, I don't condone what happened to the prisoners... but until the Iraqi's and the Arab Community gets their act together... I wish the American news elite would stop being part of the problem and stop using this story to the benefit of the Arab community.

I DON'T WANT MY PRESIDENT TO APOLOGIZE TO THE ARABS"
post #2 of 29
Well, there is one point that is incorrect in that piece.

Quote:
Four Americans were killed in Fallujah, their bodies were burned, mutilated, drug through the streets and hung on a bridge...while Iraqi people cheered and stoned the bodies...
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
There actually was an outcry for that, from the Iraqis and especially the Muslim Clerics who condemned that action.

What he is absolutely correct about is the failure to condemn the actions of the terrorists and especially the imported terrorists who have absolutely no concern for the Iraqi people, just want a Western body count and they don't care who they take with them in the process.
post #3 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissom
NO OUTCRY FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR THE ARAB COMMUNITY...
And if the people gave this outcry, would they not be subjected to the same atrocities? Just the fact that he continued to do this suggests that there were outcries and he took care of them thru more torture and murder.

I cannot condone what was done to the prisoners. And I applaud the judge that ruled they cannot level the prison as it is a crime scene. What puts the U.S. above other countries in accepting that they did this? Do we not pride ourselves for setting a world example?
post #4 of 29
If there was an outcry from the Iraqi people before - they would have been killed. Period. Now the Iraqi people have a voice, and are not afriad to use it.
post #5 of 29
Death is not humiliating to these people. Dying a martyr's death is a tragedy, yes, but it is also an honor, so to speak. Christ was also tortured and murdered, but his death is something that 2000 years later we are still seeing as a neccessary tragedy. His death was an "honorable" death.

That's sort of how the Islamic people see the deaths of their people at the hands of this lunatic, Saddam. I'm sure it outraged them, killed them inside, destroyed their spirit...but humiliating? No. Their deaths ensured them a place at the side of Allah. The humiliations that the prisoners were put through ensure their place in hell, as far as they are concerned. What our solidiers did to them is far worse than death in their eyes, and I believe the soldiers and all who were involved knew it.

If given the choice of death and hell, I'd choose the former, too. I therefore agree that what we did to them was worse than what they've done to us. I'm not saying the beheadings were not horrible tragedies, but when put into perspective, it does not seem nearly as bad as filling out their name tags and sending them straight to hell, which is what they believe we've done.

Quote:
AND NOW, A FEW IRAQI PRISONERS HAVE BEEN HUMILIATED (poor babies)... A PAIR OF WOMENS UNDERWARE PUT ON THE PRISONERS HEADS, A FEW NAKED PHOTOGRAPHS... AND THE IRAQI PEOPLE AND THE ENTIRE ARAB COMMUNITY GO
BALLASTIC... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
I'm sorry, but this "poor babies" line just infuriates me!! Those men did not deserve that treatment. They did not deserve any of this. They were forced by a despotic maniac to fight to the death for him, were most likely brainwashed into believing they were doing the right thing, and were LUCKY enough to be captured by American forces so that theÃ:censor:r families didn't suffer their loss, just their absence for a while. And what do we do? We prove to them - ONCE MORE - that we'r all talk and that Americans are worse than their psycho Saddam is. After all, Saddam just killed them and made martyrs out of them. But the Americans disrespected and dishonored them.

Does anyone realize that they can never sleep with their wives again? They cannot have children after this? They believe that they are dirty and unable to sleep with a woman after they have been exposed to homosexual acts or even play acting or posing. They are now defiled. They believe in shame, unlike so many westerners.

As far as the president apologizing....is this person KIDDING????? He owes a lot more than a lousy apology!! He will never be able to make right what he's done wrong...what he's allowed to happen. That these soldiers weren't immediately thrown in prison for treason and crimes against humanity (that's what I consider this, since we have international laws about treatment of POWs) just shows how very little this president seems to care about the Iraqi people and their beliefs. It doesn't matter what WE believe, it matters what THEY believe. And we have no idea how far the soldiers actually went with these prisoners. I do NOT believe they should be given the benefit of the doubt. They should be tried and punished severely - anyone who took part or turned a blind eye. Until they are, we are just proving to the world and the people of Islam in particular, that we really are as terrible as they all think we are.

post #6 of 29
If you're asking if I agree with what was done, of course I don't. Any time anyone hurts, kills, humilates, etc., someone else, it is wrong. I can understand the anger these soldiers had, having seen their friends killed and whatnot, but stooping to this level was the wrong thing to do. I am not a very "involved" person in politics, but I am concerned as far as what the U.S. is doing...It seems to me we are trying to make a United States of Iraq...but I admit that I am uneducated as to the process the U.S. is trying to accomplish over there. I mean my thoughts are, if we start out like this, where do we stop???
post #7 of 29
My father is islamic. He weeped for their souls becaus of how badly his marks them (religiously) This was against all their morals, and codes, and rules of life. it isn't just a shaming act that is part of being imprisoned. this wasn't just something that demeaned them. It made their souls unclean. In islam there isn't such a legacy as a forgiving god. There isn't a way to clean your soul, and there isn't retribution. It's ruination to them. They feel that god has automatically turned them away because of soemthing they can't control. Thank you for belittling an entire religion.
You've just proved every feeling that the iraqi's have about the americans.
post #8 of 29
Just makes me wonder how we can possibly live in a country that is so inherently evil.

Oh, right. We aren't. We just see it on TV and in the newspapers and on the radio and on the internet. We only see how horrible our military is, not the thousands over there trying to do right by the Iraqis. We only see and hear and apparently some actually believe that it is OUR fault that these terrorist thugs are doing what they are doing.

Of course I won't say what happened at that prison was right or justified in any way, but it was a SMALL GROUP of soldiers who did it to a SMALL NUMBER of prisoners. This isn't our whole military, this isn't our whole country. Quite frankly I cannot imagine seeing this single incident in the whole context of our country as a defining term. That's just sad.
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
Just makes me wonder how we can possibly live in a country that is so inherently evil.

Oh, right. We aren't. We just see it on TV and in the newspapers and on the radio and on the internet. We only see how horrible our military is, not the thousands over there trying to do right by the Iraqis. We only see and hear and apparently some actually believe that it is OUR fault that these terrorist thugs are doing what they are doing.

Of course I won't say what happened at that prison was right or justified in any way, but it was a SMALL GROUP of soldiers who did it to a SMALL NUMBER of prisoners. This isn't our whole military, this isn't our whole country. Quite frankly I cannot imagine seeing this single incident in the whole context of our country as a defining term. That's just sad.
Heidi, a number of questions have been raised in the armed forces, the legal community, and the media about the role played by the Pentagon's apparent attempt to circumvent the Geneva Convention by defining some of those detainees as something other than POWs. I'd say it might be best to wait and see what conclusions are eventually drawn - while it's possible that these actions were indeed "isolated cases" performed by individual soldiers, it's also possible that the soldiers charged were not acting on their own initiative. It's just too soon to know what to think.
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
Heidi, a number of questions have been raised in the armed forces, the legal community, and the media about the role played by the Pentagon's apparent attempt to circumvent the Geneva Convention by defining some of those detainees as something other than POWs. I'd say it might be best to wait and see what conclusions are eventually drawn - while it's possible that these actions were indeed "isolated cases" performed by individual soldiers, it's also possible that the soldiers charged were not acting on their own initiative. It's just too soon to know what to think.
You're right Tricia, there are a lot of unanswered questions about how far up it really goes, and there is a lot of finger pointing ("I didn't do it" "I was just following orders" "I didn't know about it"). Quite frankly I am very disappointed in the individuals who did this, and even more disappointed about the passing of the buck down the line to the lowest rank.

But my rampage was really that this is not what defines America, Americans, or our military. This has been taken out of context, out of the bigger picture of what is going on over there. We hear about this day after day after day, and yet how often do we hear about the education system being put into place, or the infrastructure being built, or even how the Iraqi people are now being employed by the new Iraqi government? It isn't reflective of what I am, nor anyone I know. It is not reflective of any of the people I know who are serving in the military, or who have served in the military in the past. I just get tired of this being the only thing talked about, and seeing the whole of the military and every man and woman who is serving over there having the blame placed on them. Regardless of how high it goes, this isn't how America or Americans are, and it isn't reflective of the society, culture, military or individuals who are Americans.
post #11 of 29
Thank you for belittling an entire religion.
You've just proved every feeling that the iraqi's have about the americans.[/quote]
Yes Denise I agree with you. In a county that is supposed to be open-mined, with freedom and liberty for all, we certainly have a lot (not all) of people who are closed-minded and want to blanklet a whole country and its religion as evil. The seeds of prejudice are sown in this manner, hence the term, the ugly American.
post #12 of 29
I can honestly say I appreciate the things america is doing that are good. however, people fail to see that while this act only happened to an isolated number of people, how detrimental it was for the iraqis to know and see that this was done. This has put all of the trust back to when this whole thing started. Even if this was an isolated incident, it shamed the nation. If only you could see my father, you would know. He's only ever cried when people close to him have died, and even then, not any great amount. He bawled. He doesn't go to church, and he did that day. His friends went to dinner and then had prayer together over this.
The people punished were few, but the effect was large.
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
"As far as the president apologizing....is this person KIDDING????? He owes a lot more than a lousy apology!! He will never be able to make right what he's done wrong...what he's allowed to happen. That these soldiers weren't immediately thrown in prison for treason and crimes against humanity (that's what I consider this, since we have international laws about treatment of POWs) just shows how very little this president seems to care about the Iraqi people and their beliefs. It doesn't matter what WE believe, it matters what THEY believe. And we have no idea how far the soldiers actually went with these prisoners. I do NOT believe they should be given the benefit of the doubt. They should be tried and punished severely - anyone who took part or turned a blind eye. Until they are, we are just proving to the world and the people of Islam in particular, that we really are as terrible as they all think we are."

I think this rather reassured that he won't be reelected. In fact, I hope not. I never agreed with his policies towards Iraq. I agree that the treatment was terrible, and I think that the participants deserve much more than a court martial. My question was: Is this attitude of "they did it to themselves and its okay, but we do what they do, and its a horrible crime" the same attitude everyone else has. I agree that they couldn't speak out due to the conditions of the time, I am merely wandering if the attitude of the email person is the same as a majority of people.
post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlecat
I can honestly say I appreciate the things america is doing that are good. however, people fail to see that while this act only happened to an isolated number of people, how detrimental it was for the iraqis to know and see that this was done. This has put all of the trust back to when this whole thing started. Even if this was an isolated incident, it shamed the nation. If only you could see my father, you would know. He's only ever cried when people close to him have died, and even then, not any great amount. He bawled. He doesn't go to church, and he did that day. His friends went to dinner and then had prayer together over this.
The people punished were few, but the effect was large.
What do you believe happened in the afterlife to the people who flew the planes on September 11th?

I have a copy of the Koran: grant it, it is a translation from the 1950's for Penquin Classics.

Every chapter begins with the phrase "In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful". Doesn't 'merciful' mean forgiving? There are many statements through out the work which at least to my reading, say that Allah will forgive the sins of the believers, assuming that their good deeds were greater. I'm curious about why you said above that the abused prisoners were effectively condemned to hell for something they had no control over it. (This is a question about what you said, not a comment on the prison situation.)
post #15 of 29
Eh but where you're not looking is what he'll do to them first. purgatory is indeed worse than hell. Beyond this, each translation is differing based on the nation the translation was meant for. it is considered better to become a eunic than to participate in homosexual acts there. or any other sexual atrocity.
That's just the way it is. this is not a forgivable sin.
and I point out that while my *father* practices islam, I do not, and we are turkish, who are really more of "islam lite" in that he is not orthodox. He believes they will be going to hell. But is it man's place to condemn another man?
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlecat
Eh but where you're not looking is what he'll do to them first. purgatory is indeed worse than hell. Beyond this, each translation is differing based on the nation the translation was meant for. it is considered better to become a eunic than to participate in homosexual acts there. or any other sexual atrocity.
That's just the way it is. this is not a forgivable sin.
and I point out that while my *father* practices islam, I do not, and we are turkish, who are really more of "islam lite" in that he is not orthodox. He believes they will be going to hell. But is it man's place to condemn another man?
As to the actions on 9-11, it was everyone's place in the civilized world to condemn the actors & planners without reservation or equivocation and without regard to race, creed or nationality. People directly harmed by them may opt to forgive their actions based upon their own conscience and faith, but what they did was worthy of universal condemnation.
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucia
As to the actions on 9-11, it was everyone's place in the civilized world to condemn the actors & planners without reservation or equivocation and without regard to race, creed or nationality. People directly harmed by them may opt to forgive their actions based upon their own conscience and faith, but what they did was worthy of universal condemnation.
I completely agree.
post #18 of 29
yes. I don't condone this at all. I just don't think it's my place to condemn their heavenly fate. I think it's certainly their place to worry about it, and also the countries to mourn the event. but this is all semantics. They probably found out right quick that they were wrong, but of course, due to the religious brainwashing that they went through (and let me assure you they are a MINORITY) they thought they were right. yes. this was a horrible act, no I do not remove the of culpability, but keep in mind the majority of the culpability remains in their radical leaders. This is like saying the entirety of ireland is as responsible for all those acts, as the IRA. Misinformation is a terrible thing.
Remember: Oderint dum Metuant. (translates to "let them hate as long as they fear")
post #19 of 29
I realize that a lot of people of Islamic faith believe that those prisoners will go the Hell because of the humiliation they recieved at the hands of OTHERS while in that prison. What I don't understand, is how they can ACCEPT such a belief and still worship a God who would be so unjust. It seems that those belief's are totally opposite to what is in nature instilled in mankind, whether or not a person is religious.

By nature we all know that is wrong to kill another person, yet those Islamic militants still chose to MURDER thousands of innocent people on 9/11. I don't think they stopped and looked at the Western view when they murdered everyone. Now they may have thought they would go to heaven because they died in the name of Allah, but did they even consider how we felt about that? No. They HATE us, and everything we stand for. I don't condone what was done in the prison by American Military, but it isn't like WE were the only one's who have done wrong.

What offends me, is that so many people come here from Islamic nations to get an education and to take advantage of all the good things we have to offer here in the US and other Western Countries, then take it back to their country to use their Western gained Knowledge to try to destroy us. I'm not saying EVERY Islamic person is doing that, but a lot are. Just look at where those pilots were trained, so that they could inturn turn around and fly those planes into the Trade Center and the Pentegan.

I may sound extremest, but I am so sick and tired of us trying to show compassion to a people who would kill each and every one of us, as soon as look at us.

We are punishing the people who humiliated the prisoners, because we KNOW legally it was wrong, but we also know in our hearts it was wrong as well. However, it does NOT in my opinion justify the fact that they are beheading people. I guess I would NOT make for a good Islamic girl, because I simply could NOT accept a God who would codemn me to Hell because of something that SOMEONE else did to me. As Lucia said, if Allah is Merciful, then Allah would NOT be so unjust, and I truly believe that Allah would NOT approve of what was done in HIS name on 9/11, nor would Allah approve of the beheadings.

We always have to walk the line of Political Correctness, and at this point in time, I'm getting sick of it. If they don't want us over there, and they are going to keep killing us, then why should we allow them to come here? We should just send them all home, and we should just leave their countries and allow them to fend for themselves, but NEVER, EVER again in a million years allow them to come here and get educated, so that they can use that education to destroy us.
post #20 of 29
you said it right there.
Extremist.
That is the key word. And may I point out that questioning the right or wrong of any religion is really quite odd. When all you have is the cultural beleifs and the religion from your past, because all the rest had been taken away from you, thenthe only thing you have is to continue the practice of that religion. The problem occurs when the younger, angrier generations meet up with the militant extremists.
Yes, all of Islam pretty much took that as a slap in the face, no matter if they are militant or not, because tht's something that everyone is taught. I don't speculate that they are correct, but I don't think it's fair to speculate who's religion is correct either.
post #21 of 29
Well, the whole of America was slapped pretty hard - no punched right in the face with 9/11. And with Daniel Pearl's beheading. And with the Falluja four's desecration. And with Paul Johnson's beheading. I don't understand how people seem to forget about all of that in light of the prisoner scandal, and somehow make us take the blame.

I don't see all Muslims in the same light as the extremists/terrorists. I don't know anyone personally who does. Yes, I'm sure there are some out there, but I'm not and I'm tired of being lumped in with them. And I'm sorry, but I don't feel guilty about what happened to the prisoners. I didn't do it, I don't approve of it, and I won't take the blame for it.
post #22 of 29
And many folks that lived in Germany weren't involved in the execution of millions of Jews. They didn't do it, but didn't do anything to stop it either. Does this make them guilt free? And yes, the example is extreme, but every mass injustice starts small.

I don't believe in taking out revenge as justice. I do believe that as world leaders, we should be setting an example to the world. Christian morals would have us turn the other cheek, and never an eye for an eye. I'm not even religious, but still believe strongly in these values. I can't condone what we did as a country to these prisoners.
post #23 of 29
So it's right to do it back then? Oh well. people are set in their ideas. That's the way it is with these types of things. I think I'll end my thoughts on this thread, as I don't want to aggrivate myself playing devil's advocate. I do, however, hope that I helped to inform some people of why this atrocity upset the entire islamic nation. I'm not saying I condone what was done to the US, but i will say that perhaps hammurabi's code was laid to rest for a reason. I'm afraid that we are just going to keep "paying eachother back" until there is no more "eachother". I personally don't think this is the way to go. So when you see me in Sweden, hiding under a rock, you'll know I feel the end is near.
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissom
I agree that they couldn't speak out due to the conditions of the time, I am merely wandering if the attitude of the email person is the same as a majority of people.
Amber - please know that I was NOT speaking to you when I addressed the email you posted, merely to the writer of the email

I hope that this is NOT the attitude of the majority of the people. I haven't spoken to anyone about this yet who felt this way, unless they are feeding me a line of poo about it Of course, I tend to have friends who think similar to my line of thinking and 3 of my 4 closest friends are NOT American, though 1 have lived in America for about 15 years (she's from Scotland and the other two are English and German).

I guess we'll find out how people really feel at the next election.
post #25 of 29
Hmmm, this is interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the responses I am understanding that if you don't think that the prisoners being abused was as bad or worse than what the terrorists have done, then you condone it?

I have said in every post and I will say it again....I do not condone the actions of the military personnel in that prison. It was an atrocious thing to do, regardless of the situation or what their beliefs are.

I have tried to make my point clear, I'll try again. The attitude that disturbs me is that somehow we now deserve whatever the terrorists do because of the prisoner abuse. It disturbs me that people aren't as horrified by Paul Johnson's beheading because it was "just retribution for what we did to the prisoners" even though the terrorists didn't even say anything about it. It disturbs me that even in talking about 9/11 the prisoner abuse is brought up in a way to lessen what happened and what evil was brought into our country.

Denise, I appreciate the perspective you are offering on this and why it was such an atrocity to treat the prisoners in that way. I am certainly not going to disagree that it was wrong, plain and simple, for that to happen as revenge or otherwise.

I just don't even see where the responses to my point of view are coming from, honestly. I didn't say it was OK for them to abuse the prisoners, I didn't say revenge was the right thing to do. I'm trying to say that it is a matter of perspective, and that this incident, no matter how horrible, does not justify in any way what the terrorists are doing or have done in the past, nor does it in any way mitigate 9/11 or any other lives lost to them.
post #26 of 29


Wow, i can't believe some of the stuff i'm reading!!!!
So, if one of the American prisoners was treated in that way by the arabs it's ok???? What happened to the whole human rights thing you love to parade about????

The attitude of some of you here quite frankly stinks and the 'higher than thou' American attitude is really showing here.

I'm too upset to read through the whole post. And no maybe i shouldnt have clicked to read this thread, but unfortunately the title heading on the main page caught my eye.
I'm afraid it's some of the opinions expressed here is what infuriates the arab and islamic world and causes future trouble.


I don't think i'll be visiting this website in future.
Great website, but too many narrow minded people.
post #27 of 29
I hate to say this, folks, but this thread is a real mess. I've read it through twice, and I'm still not sure who is responding to whose post. While you are "answering" the "last" post, other members may be posting their reactions, and this seems to be leading to a lot of misunderstandings. This is a very emotional topic, too, which complicates matters.

I would like to point out one thing: My understanding is that the interrogations in Abu Ghraib prison primarily concerned attacks on U.S. service personnel in Iraq. As Iraq was not involved in the 9/11 attacks, as even G.W.B. has now stated, I myself don't believe that it's correct to connect the two in this thread, even if it does turn out that al Qaida members have been the instigators of the spate of beheadings. Let me put it this way: What would be the point of "punishing" a Canadian, Briton, Australian or New Zealander for an offense committed by an American?
post #28 of 29
I've been watching this thread with a great deal of interest. I'll try to address the pertinent points as I saw them.

Grissom: You are correct. The Iraqi public didn't speak out. Speaking out against that regime while it was in power was tantamount to suicide...not just for the person that spoke out, but in many instances the entire family simply vanished. You don't bring words to a gunfight. You'll lose every time. People waited to speak out until AFTER they knew for a fact that Saddam was in custody. They were terrified that he would come back or that we would leave without finishing the job again.

DiMa: I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I was also upset by what happened in the prison. I'd also be remiss not to point out that there are now 7 indictments I believe. Someone should divide 7 into 130,000 plus troops and come up with a percentage. War isn't a game, and it's not pretty. In almost every conflict in history there have been people that took advantage of a situation outside accepted norms. Saddam gave rewards to his people that went beyond those norms. We put them on trial.

Some quotes from you:
" They did not deserve any of this. They were forced by a despotic maniac to fight to the death for him, were most likely brainwashed into believing they were doing the right thing, and were LUCKY enough to be captured by American forces so that theÃ:censor:r families didn't suffer their loss, just their absence for a while. "

I'd like to see your support on this "fact". Conscripts in Saddams army were prodded. His vaunted Republican Guard was a whole different story. We're still fighting those people. The difference is that they aren't wearing uniforms anymore and we still are.

"That these soldiers weren't immediately thrown in prison for treason and crimes against humanity (that's what I consider this, since we have international laws about treatment of POWs) just shows how very little this president seems to care about the Iraqi people and their beliefs."

If I have this right, you wanted to immediately toss them in jail. Congratulations. You just threw out the Constitution with the bathwater. The "other guys" do that. We don't. The personnel currently under charges will be tried under the provisions of the UCMJ in a military court and if found guilty, will be punished accordingly.
The elements for treason don't exist, so that's a moot point. Crimes against humanity? You may wish to do further reading on that one. That's also off point.

" And we have no idea how far the soldiers actually went with these prisoners. I do NOT believe they should be given the benefit of the doubt."

There went that pesky Constitution again. Right out the window. Presumption of innocence prevails until the accused are found guilty in a court.

Valanhb:

"Just makes me wonder how we can possibly live in a country that is so inherently evil. "

I've been wondering the same thing. Perhaps we should move to a more enlightened country...say Afghanistan. I hear that beekeeper outfits for women are all the rage there. WooHoo.
I'm seeing a VERY broad brush being used in this thread to paint the United States Military, and the United States as a whole.

I believe that I've covered the salient parts of the early conversations on this thread. Again, I would ask that someone do the math. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that this was an abberation. It will be addressed in due course in an accepted legal manner.


Jeff
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by grampngram
I've been watching this thread with a great deal of interest. I'll try to address the pertinent points as I saw them.

Grissom: You are correct. The Iraqi public didn't speak out. Speaking out against that regime while it was in power was tantamount to suicide...not just for the person that spoke out, but in many instances the entire family simply vanished. You don't bring words to a gunfight. You'll lose every time. People waited to speak out until AFTER they knew for a fact that Saddam was in custody. They were terrified that he would come back or that we would leave without finishing the job again.

DiMa: I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I was also upset by what happened in the prison. I'd also be remiss not to point out that there are now 7 indictments I believe. Someone should divide 7 into 130,000 plus troops and come up with a percentage. War isn't a game, and it's not pretty. In almost every conflict in history there have been people that took advantage of a situation outside accepted norms. Saddam gave rewards to his people that went beyond those norms. We put them on trial.

Some quotes from you:
" They did not deserve any of this. They were forced by a despotic maniac to fight to the death for him, were most likely brainwashed into believing they were doing the right thing, and were LUCKY enough to be captured by American forces so that theÃ:censor:r families didn't suffer their loss, just their absence for a while. "

I'd like to see your support on this "fact". Conscripts in Saddams army were prodded. His vaunted Republican Guard was a whole different story. We're still fighting those people. The difference is that they aren't wearing uniforms anymore and we still are.

"That these soldiers weren't immediately thrown in prison for treason and crimes against humanity (that's what I consider this, since we have international laws about treatment of POWs) just shows how very little this president seems to care about the Iraqi people and their beliefs."

If I have this right, you wanted to immediately toss them in jail. Congratulations. You just threw out the Constitution with the bathwater. The "other guys" do that. We don't. The personnel currently under charges will be tried under the provisions of the UCMJ in a military court and if found guilty, will be punished accordingly.
The elements for treason don't exist, so that's a moot point. Crimes against humanity? You may wish to do further reading on that one. That's also off point.

" And we have no idea how far the soldiers actually went with these prisoners. I do NOT believe they should be given the benefit of the doubt."

There went that pesky Constitution again. Right out the window. Presumption of innocence prevails until the accused are found guilty in a court.

Valanhb:

"Just makes me wonder how we can possibly live in a country that is so inherently evil. "

I've been wondering the same thing. Perhaps we should move to a more enlightened country...say Afghanistan. I hear that beekeeper outfits for women are all the rage there. WooHoo.
I'm seeing a VERY broad brush being used in this thread to paint the United States Military, and the United States as a whole.

I believe that I've covered the salient parts of the early conversations on this thread. Again, I would ask that someone do the math. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that this was an abberation. It will be addressed in due course in an accepted legal manner.


Jeff
The voice of reason shows its head! Thanks, Jeff, for stressing the dangers of oversimplification.
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