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Teacher washes out students mouth with soap

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast....ap/index.html

Oh my goodness, I have not thought of my mouth being washed out with soap for years - my mother did that to me if I swore, it worked on me. And I am fine now
post #2 of 37
I say "Good for the teacher!!!!!!!!"

The most telling part is the last sentence of that story:

"More than 40 relatives of children in Thomas' class have asked for her to be reinstated."

That indicates to me that this is a good teacher, and good teachers are hard to find.


Jeff
post #3 of 37
you know.. I gotta say he probably deserved it
post #4 of 37
Oh for Pete's sake!! I have done it as a last resort and my daughter HATES IT. But it works!! It's non-toxic. It doesn't hurt, and it symbolically gives the right message. The punishment fits the crime. Suspension for a week does NOT fit the crime.

But the article shows the problem. His FOSTER mother didn't know. Hm. Perhaps if this kid had a mother who gave a rat's behind about him he wouldn't feel the need to lash out and misbehave so much. I feel for his foster mom who, I'm sure, has to deal with this and worse at home.

I love the message that this sends to the students, too. Don't you? "Misbehave all you want! We can't discipline you, so go right ahead! Walk all over us if you'd like!" Somebody ought to smack the principal who put her on leave up side the head. She even took him to the NURSES OFFICE to do it so he'd 1) not be publically humiliated and b) be safe!! Sheesh...I dread the day when this generation of undisciplined kids grows up and starts making our laws for us and running our countries.
post #5 of 37
no way, this is terrible!!! ok, it is ok for the PARENT to do it, but not a teacher.

if someone did this to my child, i would go up the wall, that teacher should be sacked
post #6 of 37
The teacher had no right to discipline the child this way. It was out of bounds. The child needs help, if he is not getting it, not a mouth that smells "April fresh."
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
The teacher had no right to discipline the child this way. It was out of bounds. The child needs help, if he is not getting it, not a mouth that smells "April fresh."
Damn right, how could people say that this is right?
post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazx01
Damn right, how could people say that this is right?
I used to be a teacher, that's how, and I'm a parent. 1 drop of soap is in no wa out of bounds, as far as I'm concerned. Teachers HAVE to be able to discipline their students and in this case the punishment fits the crime. Why is it ok for the parent and not the teacher who is with the child 6 hours a day who is attacking other students? If the parent were disciplining the child properly herself, would he have been saying these things in the first place? Would he have been suspended numerous times? Doubt it. So if the school doesn't do it, who will?
post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiMa
I used to be a teacher, that's how, and I'm a parent. 1 drop of soap is in no wa out of bounds, as far as I'm concerned. Teachers HAVE to be able to discipline their students and in this case the punishment fits the crime. Why is it ok for the parent and not the teacher who is with the child 6 hours a day who is attacking other students? If the parent were disciplining the child properly herself, would he have been saying these things in the first place? Would he have been suspended numerous times? Doubt it. So if the school doesn't do it, who will?
1 drop of soap of 50 drops of soap, a teacher has no right to do this to anybodys child, how dare they think they can do this???? As i said before if it had of been my child i would have gone up the wall!
How is pouring soap into a childs mouth going to disciplin? Oh, and if it is so right, why has the teacher been suspended?
post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazx01
1 drop of soap of 50 drops of soap, a teacher has no right to do this to anybodys child, how dare they think they can do this???? As i said before if it had of been my child i would have gone up the wall!
How is pouring soap into a childs mouth going to disciplin?

She didn't pour it, she put one drop on the child's lip. This has been done for go only knows how many years. My mother did it to me and as I said, I have on rare occassion done it to my daughter. It gets the point across. When teachers are told they don't have the right to discipline their students is when we get students who disrupt and hurt and kill other students. They learn to have a complete lack of respect for their teachers and for the other students. I'm a little appalled that people think that teachers DONT have the right to discipline their students! As I said, who else if not the teacher? Parent certainly isn't.

Quote:
Oh, and if it is so right, why has the teacher been suspended?
Good question! Why HAS she been suspended? Obviously 40 of the parents are wondering the same thing! She shouldn't have been suspended at all.
post #11 of 37
When i was at school, we didnt have teachers pourung soap into our mouths if we did something wrong! We got detention, essays, made to stand outside the headmasters office all day, taken out of lessons and made to do our work in an office with just one teacher in there with us all day.
Just because you pour a bit of washing up liquid into the pupils mouth, doesnt mean to say that they arent going to attack the teacher, or as you said about the killings, if anything, its going to wind them up more, dont you think?
Back to when i was at school, the punishment we got, we didnt have pupils attacking teachers, or teachers getting killed.
If i had of been that childs mother, i would have marched straight down that school to pour some of my washing up liquid into their mouth, and see if they like it!
post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiMa
Why is it ok for the parent and not the teacher who is with the child 6 hours a day who is attacking other students? If the parent were disciplining the child properly herself, would he have been saying these things in the first place? Would he have been suspended numerous times? Doubt it. So if the school doesn't do it, who will?


Too many parents allow their kids to run completely wild - if they're the only ones who have to deal with the out-of-control child, fine. But they're not - those kids run all over & abuse the other kids, disrupt class, and make it impossible for the kids who do behave to get the education that they're in school for.

The article said that the boy had been suspended several times, and it's obvious that wasn't working. He probably viewed it as a vacation, a reward. Kids who behave like that should be kicked out for their parents to deal with, or sent to a separate class where they could disrupt only each other, and receive the therapy &/or discipline they need, and not interfere with the rest of the kids.

I think the teacher did what was necessary to get the point across to that boy, in a way that did not harm him. It's not like she spanked him, or washed his mouth out in front of the other kids. She took him to the nurse's office. Not even public humiliation - unlike the little girl on the receiving end of his foul actions.
post #13 of 37
i do see what you are saying, but how can you think that squirting a bit of washing up liquid in his mouth is going to stop him?
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazx01
i do see what you are saying, but how can you think that squirting a bit of washing up liquid in his mouth is going to stop him?
Worked for me when I was a kid - Mom only did it once!

I'm not positive, but I think the main reason is that the child realizes that the adult is serious, and will follow through with discipline if he/she keeps misbehaving. It's not so much the manner of discipline, as it is that the child can consistently connect a behavior (good or bad) with a consequence (positive or negative). The consequence needs to be something that makes an impression - for some reason, soap does.
post #15 of 37
But, if the kid is as bad as he has been made out, then i dont think a bit of soap is going to do anything, im sorry, im not trying to start arguements , but i really dont think this kid will take any notice of this, i dont think it will change him.
post #16 of 37
cazx01:

It's pretty clear that you aren't an educator. I am not saying that this teacher's actions were necessarily correct, but put yourself into an educator's shoes. Options for discipline have become fewer and fewer.

Students can't stand or sit out in the hallway: they are unsupervised, and you are responsible for their safety.

What school system has the budget to have a teacher who sits in a room with one kid all day?????

What does out-of-school suspension teach a child??? Misbehave and you get a day off?

It's easy to wag a finger and say "wrong". Have you got any solutions? BTW, in the school setting in the legal sense, teachers operate in loco parentis, meaning in place of the parent.
post #17 of 37
Understood, Carrie.

You may well be right, though I do hope the fact that he actually received a negative consequence in response to his actions at school for once will make a difference.

I'd like to find a way to follow up on this story, to see if it worked, and also to see what happens to the teacher. I think what happens to her might affect the impact it has on him - if she's disciplined for disciplining him, it might send him the wrong message.
post #18 of 37
[quote=DiMa]She didn't pour it, she put one drop on the child's lip. This has been done for go only knows how many years.

First of all this is what SHE said she did...we don't know this for sure. As for this method "being done for years"...so have a lot of punishments, hitting with rulers, whippings, spankings etc. Just because something is done frequently doesn't make it correct. There are rules in the school on how to discipline a child...I can bet washing a child's mouth, or lips out with soap isn't on the OKAY list. Is this what we teach children...that when you (child) get out of control you get punished, but when teacher gets out of control, she/he can do whatever she/he wants...meaning go against the rules. A bit of a mixed message don't you think? She may be a wonderful educator, but she lost control. She should have sent him to the principals office, if she could not handle him in the classroom. Again this child needs serious help, he already feels unwanted in a foster situation, he is acting out...starved for attention. I see enough of this behavior in the family homeless shelter I work in.
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb25
cazx01:

It's pretty clear that you aren't an educator. I am not saying that this teacher's actions were necessarily correct, but put yourself into an educator's shoes. Options for discipline have become fewer and fewer.

Students can't stand or sit out in the hallway: they are unsupervised, and you are responsible for their safety.

What school system has the budget to have a teacher who sits in a room with one kid all day?????

What does out-of-school suspension teach a child??? Misbehave and you get a day off?

It's easy to wag a finger and say "wrong". Have you got any solutions? BTW, in the school setting in the legal sense, teachers operate in loco parentis, meaning in place of the parent.
My school system had the budget to have a teacher sit in a room with one of us all day.
I know this because it happend to me, dont get me wrong i wasnt horrible or anything, i got sent out of class for talking in the middle of a lesson, believe me, once you had a day in the office with the deputy head all day, you would do anything not to let that happen again
But you are right, i dont have the experience in teaching education therefore i cant understand what it must be like to have teenagers given you are hard time every lesson, i can only just imagine what that must be like, i didnt mean to offend you or anyone else in my posts before, sorry if i did
post #20 of 37
I have to put in my here. I've been teaching for 24 years, and while I find this particular teacher's response a bit extreme, I can understand it. You wouldn't believe the number of totally disinterested/hopeless parents I've encountered over the years. You tell them their child hasn't been in school for 3 months, is addicted to heroin and ripping off everything in sight, is physically abusive, and they shrug their shoulders and tell you they "have no control"! Detention and/or suspension works for most kids, but not all. I've never physically disciplined any of my students, but I've become able to be such an incredible b***h that some of them probably would've preferred having their mouth washed out to one of my tongue-lashings. There are a lot of "parents" out there who push all responsibility off on the schools. I don't work in an inner city public school - my experience is limited to universities and private schools, so if I've often encountered such situations, think what it must be like for a teacher working in a public school.
post #21 of 37
I used to teach high school German and English in public school and believe me, it's not fun, even if you LOVE teaching and adore kids. Sending them to the office isn't usually an option. Detention is useless. Suspension is a free vacation. Expulsion is a life sentence. If you don't discipline the kids, you can bet no one will. And as Deb said, teachers are supposed to act in loco parentis.

When I left teaching (I haven't left for good, just until my daughter is more healthy) I was teaching 3 levels of German and senior English for the kids who failed other English classes. They called it "dumbed-down English." Nice, eh? No one ever did homework. No one tried to pass tests, or even take tests. I only did that class for one semester before I left teaching, and I was at the end of my rope. I'm a very good teacher and have been able to make a difference to a lot of "problem" kids, but this class believed they were hopeless, their parents believed they were hopeless, their peers believed it and so did everyone else. Therefore, they WERE hopeless. Many of them couldn't read and thought it was "cool." Guess what? Those kids still graduated. Isn't that lovely? America seems to just want these kids out of there hair so they let them do whatever they want and then give them a diploma. Education is not valued here like it is in other countries. Carrie - perhaps this is a cultural difference between our two countries. We seriously don't value education. Why do you think that teachers are the lowest paid professionals in the country?

Quote:
Is this what we teach children...that when you (child) get out of control you get punished, but when teacher gets out of control, she/he can do whatever she/he wants...meaning go against the rules.
The teacher wasn't out of control. That's the whole point. She took the child to the nurses office where, under the supervision and witness of a health care professional, she did what parents have been doing forever to teach their kids that if they are going to use their mouths for dirty words, they will get them washed out. Will it deter him in the future? No - because now he knows that he can do whatever the heck he wants. The moron who suspended the teacher has reinforced this. He's just learned a very valuable lesson: Do what you want, say what you want, then claim abuse and you can get away with anything. I'm sure the jury will understand when he gets off for rape because he claims that he was the victim in some way.

He verbally sexually assaulted a little girl. If he were my kid I'd have done a lot more than wash his nasty mouth out. But those of you who are not educators and/or parents can't really say what you would or wouldn't do, as it's really not something you can predict when you haven't had the experience. I'm not saying this to make flames or to offend, it's just the honest truth. Things are very different when you are responsible for 40 kids and one or two are abusing the rest and you have no means to discipline and the system and parents reinforce the child's belief that he can abuse who he wants how he wants.

As they say, walk a mile in my shoes.

P.S. This is coming from the mom of a child who has many many behavioral problems, who is often violent and uncontrollable due to her developmental disabilites, manic depression and OCD and something called ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). My kid tears her face up, hits teachers - and me - and doesn't have a lot of control over it. But she is still disciplined and if her teacher didn't do it, I'd yank my kid out of her class.
post #22 of 37
She was WAY out of line.
post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcat
I have to put in my here. I've been teaching for 24 years, and while I find this particular teacher's response a bit extreme, I can understand it. You wouldn't believe the number of totally disinterested/hopeless parents I've encountered over the years. You tell them their child hasn't been in school for 3 months, is addicted to heroin and ripping off everything in sight, is physically abusive, and they shrug their shoulders and tell you they "have no control"! Detention and/or suspension works for most kids, but not all. I've never physically disciplined any of my students, but I've become able to be such an incredible b***h that some of them probably would've preferred having their mouth washed out to one of my tongue-lashings. There are a lot of "parents" out there who push all responsibility off on the schools. I don't work in an inner city public school - my experience is limited to universities and private schools, so if I've often encountered such situations, think what it must be like for a teacher working in a public school.
Much worse. Much Much worse.

Parents don't care, and they don't provide discipline. Heck half of the kids in the school system are only there because they legally have to be. The parents make them go, because they get charged with a crime if they dont. However if the parents discipline their kids, then someone else comes along and charges them with child abuse. Teachers aren't allowed to use any significant form of discipline because of the fear of lawsuits.

Nobody wins. Suspensions, Detentions, etc only seem to work on kids who are blessed with halfway decent parents. "Tougher" kids demand "tougher" solutions. What was done might have been out of line, yes, but at the same time, the other methods have already been tried...something new and different can't do any worse than fail also.

Having gone through public schooling, and also having a parent who was a teacher and left the profession due to mandated avoidance of any form of discipline, I can speak from two different perspectives. I've been in multiple school systems, in multiple states, so it wasn't just one bad school. It's a universal problem.

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire....water works most of the time, but not always.

Spotz
post #24 of 37
The first time I brought a nasty word home to my parents and tested it out on them (5th grade) My mother marched me to the bathroom where she lathered up a bar of Ivory soap, and took my toothbrush and scrubbed it good on the wet soap. Then she stood over me while I brushed my teeth for 5 minutes. She wouldn't let me rinse for 10- it was nastier than the word I brought home.

But I learned my lesson that day, and never cussed at my parents again. I believe the teacher was doing the only thing she thought she could. It is a shame no one backed her up. Sends the wrong message to a kid headed for the land of hoodlums.
post #25 of 37
I have the utmost respect for people that are teachers.

The amount of BS that they have to deal with on a regular basis, is astounding to say the least. Yet even after all of that, the fact that they can still manage to bring themselves in front of a group and propogate knowledge, is amazing.

It is truely a labor of love for most of the teachers I have known, they teach because they know that if they can wade through the less desirable parts, that they can reach out and touch some kids.

It's a profession that I wish I had the tolerance to do. I enjoy helping people, and I enjoy teaching people, but the restrictions and environment associated with scholastic teaching at a primary and secondary school level is totally undesirable.

College seems to be the last field that hasn't been totally affected by disciplinary problems.

Spotz
post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by hissy
The first time I brought a nasty word home to my parents and tested it out on them (5th grade) My mother marched me to the bathroom where she lathered up a bar of Ivory soap, and took my toothbrush and scrubbed it good on the wet soap. Then she stood over me while I brushed my teeth for 5 minutes. She wouldn't let me rinse for 10- it was nastier than the word I brought home.

But I learned my lesson that day, and never cussed at my parents again. I believe the teacher was doing the only thing she thought she could. It is a shame no one backed her up. Sends the wrong message to a kid headed for the land of hoodlums.
Probably already well acquainted...

Spotz
post #27 of 37
my mum in law is a 4th grade teacher, and has to deal with a great many children that don't behave like a civil being. whatever the reason, it's not right to let the child think it's acceptable to do the things he KNOWS are wrong. I said a turkish curse word when I was 5, and I'm lucky that all I got was a spanking.
My mother in law is afraid to discipline her students because of this exact thing, and you know what, it's not just the fosters that have this problem. There's so many children who's parents spoil them to the point hat no disciplinary action that a teacher can use will help them. Parents help their kids skip out on their punishment. you know, it'sn no wonder how many people we have that are unproductive to society and our crime rate is so high.. I think if the teachers and schools in the US had half the rights of other countries, we'd be better for it.
post #28 of 37
I dont think it was the teachers place to do this..he or she should have sent the
child to the office so they could call the parents and let them was the childs mouth
out with so if they decide to - IMO
post #29 of 37
Chelle,

You are missing the point. Left to the parent to decide? Nothing would have been done. If you read the entire article, the kid himslef never said a thing about the incident to tthe foster mother. After working in elementary education for almost 20 years, that means the kid knew he did wrong.

From the 'politically correct' society, what this teacher did will be deemed as wrong, and she will most likely be fired.

It is a shame, however. More and more teachers are expected to deal effectively with unmanageable children with little or no resources.
post #30 of 37
I don't see what the problem is, here. The kid did something unacceptable and he was disciplined in an appropriate manner. He doesn't seem to be any the worse, for it. It isn't as if the teacher injured him.

Good grief, I got MY mouth washed out with soap, too. I used a word, that I'd seen written on a wall. My grandmother explained what that word meant and THEN washed my mouth out with soap. I STILL don't use that word.
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