How accurate is papation dating?? rectal temp sign?

usmckitties

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Our 11 month old female, Daisy, recently managed to escape the house while in heat (we had planned to spay her but she went into heat and our vet prefers not to spay in season females so we were waiting it out). She is our breaking and entering expert (always opening and getting into various cupboards, drawers, etc in the house) and with the added inspiration of being in heat someone managed to pry open our sliding glass door (it *bounces* and sits about 1-2" ajar if it is closed too hard.....which is what we figure must have happened w/out anyone noticing) and get out
. She wasn't out *that* long as she returned w/in the day but it has become apparent she was out long enough to find a boyfriend.
I noticed her changes a couple of weeks ago and with her recent escape in mind it seemed pretty likely she was pregnant - I took her to the vet and he palpated her to confirm the pregnancy and he thought she felt to be at about 50 days.......BUT.....though I am not 100% sure I *think* by my memory of when she escaped it would have been more along the lines of 32-34 days. I am wondering how accurate the dating by palpation generally is because if he is right then that would mean she hit 63 days yesterday but I don't see much (other than her admittedly pretty large abdomen at this point) evidence of her being that close (her nipples are a little larger and quite pink but no "bagging up" or milky substance present, appetite is normal/ravenous, very very minimal nesting behaviour, normal steady temp, etc). It is important that we are on top of things w/her as with a 6 month old Great Dane pup and a 3 year old little boy in the home we need to confine her/the kittens for their own safety but if she still has over 2 weeks (if my date was right she should be at 46-47 days) left to go confining her to the room we have chosen will probably just stress her more than help.
Also - for those with experience who used rectal temp as a monitor....how true has it held, in your experience, with the drop in temp coming 12-24 hours in advance of labor/delivery?? (I have had litters before but that was with farm cats so it wasn't the in house watching/monitoring situation we are in now)
 

pondwader

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It's too bad no one wrote anything down... I would just think really carefully about any events or appointments that may have coincided with her escape. That may jog your memory to pinpoint it a little more. Palpating can be done at 25-30 days and feel something like litte marbles (the skulls harden at this point) After 30 days or so the kittens begin to fatten up and each placenta is as big as each kitten so after 30 days it is hard to predict an accurate date, because they just feel like fat little sausages. Your vet may be right, but it would be hard for even a vet to tell at that point, because maybe the vet thought he/she was feeling 3 kittens, when actually there may be 4 or 5 or 6 kittens at an earlier gestational age. I found the temperature taking to be fairly accurate, but if this kitty still has a couple weeks to go you don't want to induce early labour by disturbing her too much. If you are sure she didn't get out earlier, then just keep an eye on her, and maybe don't take her temp until you notice other signs, like more ambitious nesting, restlessness, lack of appetite etc. If you can't be sure, is there a safe place she can be for a couple of weeks? Better safe than sorry. By the way, what color is your dane pup? Male or female? I love danes, I used to have a black dane and a fawn dane. My black dane used to mother kittens, one day I saw her walking across the room with a kittens tail hanging out of her mouth and almost had a heart attack. I told her to drop it and she did, gently, drop a soaking wet drool covered kitten, who happily crawled back to my dane and snuggled. LOL
 

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One question.... I don't understand your vet saying he/she doesn't like to spay unless the cat is in heat?
The operation is actually slightly more dangerous at that point, because there is increased blood flow to the reproductive organs, and a higher chance of infection if the uterus happened to be open and developed pyometra? If a vet did an operation at that point there would be a huge danger of infection to the rest of the body. Just thought I'd mention it.... I recommend spaying as early as possible. I know vets say 6 months, but I try to have it done by four months as long as the kitten is growing and developing well. Some people say you can't do it that young or it will stunt their growth, but my Winston was bottle fed by me from the time he was ten days old, and neutered at 4 months old, he is now absolutely huuuge. 21 lbs, healthy, beautiful, and the most affectionate and clean cat I have ever known.
 

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I would watch her close , and see if she starts acting funny. We just recently had 5 kittens from 2 mothers,3 last Wed. and 2 on Fri. the first one I didnt see a whole lot out of other than a little discharge, and About 5 in the afternoon I heard a kitten under my bed, when I looked, she had 3 and everything was cleaned up. The other was about 8 in the morning. She was rolling on the floor at my feet and meowing, and when I would pet her she grabbed my hand, licked it really hard and starting biting(not hard, but more the playful biting). I picked her up and noticed a little discharge, so I put her in her cage. 20 minutes later, she had one.At that point tho, I could hold the moms and feel the babies move around. I was kind of in your shoes, not knowing when they actually concieved. They both got out of the house during my sons birthday party, and came home pregnant.Their appetite did slow down quite a bit about a day before and they were really affectionate.I didnt see any milk discharge out of either right before, so apparently the milk actually came in afterwards.
 
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usmckitties

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Pondwader -- sorry for the confusion - when I said what I said about spaying in season is that he does NOT like to spay females actively in heat......maybe I needed to have worded it differently. Thanks for all your input--you actually said much of what I had been thinking (the size of the kittens making it difficult to accurately date her pregnancy at that stage, etc). I can't tell you how much I wish I could clarify the dates in my head but things have been very crazy (long story) around here in the last couple of months so the days all just kind of run together.......

As for the dane -- he is a fawn. He was a b-day present from my DH (I have wanted one forever and we finally own a home with lots of room and are not going to be PCS'ing, moving, anymore so it was a good time to have one).
kimi b -- thanks...and congrats on the babies.....
 

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I know the feeling! Things get so hectic around here sometimes I feel like the days,weeks and months just run together.
 
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usmckitties

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Well, after much racking of my brain and comparing events around the time frame I *think* I have pinned it down to Daisy's escape happening during the dates I originally thought (around April 22) and since according to the vet's guess (by palpation) we are now at like day #68 and she is not at ALL *ready* (her teats are not filling at all, not behaving like other cats I've had in the past, etc) I am thinking the vet was just feeling a lot of kittens at earlier gestation but thought it was fewer kittens at a later stage and so that means she is due in *about* 1 1/2-2 weeks rather than a few days ago. If she showed any signs of being ready I woud be concerned that she is going overdue but I really think that she still has some time to go..........
 

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That's what I thought... go with your instincts and just keep an eye on things... good luck, and keep us posted!
 

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Hello. Interesting thread because I have a pregnant cat. (My first cat. Her first pregnancy.) She is quite plump but still is eating. I can feel and see her babies moving. I don't want to take her rectal temperature.
But can you tell me the signs of nesting? Do all cats nest before they go into labor?

We put a cardboard box with towels in the bathroom closet, but she doesn't seem to like it. Will she decide to use it after the labor starts? How will I know the time has come?

Should I use something different for her to birth those babies in? Thanks!
mrsd
 

pondwader

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Well, most of my cats have wanted to go anywhere that I didn't want them to...lol... like the middle of my bed, in my dresser, in my closet on top of my shoes, one had her kittens in the bathroom sink, and one wouldn't leave me and had them right on my lap on the couch one night. The cardboard box is fine though, they usually prefer somewhere dark, quiet, warm and out of the way of household traffic...
 

spotz

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Originally Posted by pondwader

One question.... I don't understand your vet saying he/she doesn't like to spay unless the cat is in heat?
The operation is actually slightly more dangerous at that point, because there is increased blood flow to the reproductive organs, and a higher chance of infection if the uterus happened to be open and developed pyometra? If a vet did an operation at that point there would be a huge danger of infection to the rest of the body. Just thought I'd mention it.... I recommend spaying as early as possible. I know vets say 6 months, but I try to have it done by four months as long as the kitten is growing and developing well. Some people say you can't do it that young or it will stunt their growth, but my Winston was bottle fed by me from the time he was ten days old, and neutered at 4 months old, he is now absolutely huuuge. 21 lbs, healthy, beautiful, and the most affectionate and clean cat I have ever known.
Numerous studies by well respected Veterinary institutions have shown minimal significant developmental differences between S/N animals. In one of the longer term studies, three groups were studied.

One group S/N at 8 weeks, one group at 6 months, and the last group at 1 year.

The only development difference was noted in male cats, and was related to physical appearance and disposition. The later the S/N delay, the more deterimental the effects were.

Growth was not stunted, nor health compromised.

Bottom line, S/N is possible from 8 weeks on. Anyone who is not planning on breeding their cat, should have the S/N done as close to 8 weeks as possible.

Spotz
 

anne g

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I have read about these studies, but it seems always that people are referring to them without real reference. I would suppose that at least some of the studies are published. Do you know where, authors, titles, dates - anything substantial? That would be a great help.
 
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