Hepatic Lipidosis won't eat AGAIN

I will try that tonight.

The only reason I didn't do that last night is because I didn't know if his kitty sixth sense would be honed into the hidden meds in the tuna...and he wouldn't eat it....and would then have to be stressed by the entire medecine procedure.

But, tonight, I will give that a go and see if it helps. Also may try mixing directly with a pinch of tuna, rather than juice...because he doesn't seem to like lapping it off the saucer...and always prefers to eat his pinch of "treat" tuna from a paper towel on the floor. If this doesn't work, I'll mix up a batch of tuna juice surprise and give to him via eyedropper. Atleast with tuna juice, I know he'll like the flavor and won't taste the pill.

Thanks again for the suggestion--it really was a life saver.

Hurrah! Great to read this

Ssbeatnick,

I've read your posts and I am really concerned with Dylan's nutritional approach.

You must know that Hepatic Lipidosis requires a high protein diet in the initial treatment period. Once the lab result indicate normal ALT, ALB, BUN and total protein, etc, and once kitty is eating *sufficiently* on his own, only then can you approach a diet with less protein.

The various cans of food you've been tempting are probably the worst thing you can do toward Dylan's recovery. I'm sure your vet recommended Hill's A/D or Eukanuba Recovery Support, and with good reason. These are the two most common dietary approaches for HL, they are forumlated specifically with high protein and calories, both of which are the nutritional mainstays in HL (supportive care also involves appropriate fluid support and antibiotics)

Since you are attempting several different types and varieties, you could actually be harming Dylan by inducing food aversions, a food aversion or finickiness is NOT what you want to deal with. Please, talk to your vet about using the A/D or Recovery diet and stick to them alone. Forced feeding is rarely a good approach with HL, while some cats may be diagnosed early on and able to be treated by forced feeding, the majority recover faster with the entereal feeding tube placed for direct nurtitional support (also bypasses the need for chewing, it delivers constant nutritional support).

Tuna and fish flavors are the worst varieties for HL...they don't contain necessary protein nor caloric intake an HL kitty needs. Feeding too much of a fish variety can also cause yellow fat disease (i.e., pansteatitis), as well as thiamine deficiency, insufficient intake of vitamin e and vitamin k, and fish/tuna are high in fat and magnesium. The liver requires high protein, high calorie content to regenerate (hence the veterinary prescription diets...they are properly formulated)

The key to successful treatment of HL is the nutritional approach, and *consistency* is the number one key element. Feeding A/D on a consistent basis (with your vet's specific instructions on amounts/schedule) will lend a faster recovery. Even if Dylan starts eating his previous dry food on his own, this is NOT a gaurantee that he is out of the woods. HL is not considered cured until kitty's lab results are completely normal, there are no symptoms of HL and that kitty is eating sufficiently on his own without the aid of a recovery diet or medications.

Please don't take matters into your own hands with Dylan's nutrition. As you've witnessed, he is having a set-back, this is every indication of nutritional failure--you can't risk further liver degeneration. Speak to your vet about continuing with A/D only from this point onward.

As for the trouble administering pepcid, ask your vet for carafate instead (sucralfate)..it is easy on the stomach and intestines, safe for use in cats to prevent gastric ulcers, can also be mixed with water in a syringe for easier administration. If you are also giving amoxicillin, this too can be given as an oral suspension. Oral suspensions are easier for the cat during times of illness....................................Traci

Susan,

The post by Cat-Tech is a serious one, one I wanted to comment on. My feeling from reading your posts is that you are working with your vet on Dylan's care, are not feeding fish exclusively (and except for the tuna in water - which, as I've read, it is tuna in oil - a heavy diet of this - that can lead to steatitis) and what cat food with a fish flavor you are feeding have added vitamins and minerals to make them come up to AAFCO standards.

I know that without having the experience of being a vet tech or a vet, there is much to learn in this thread, and sometimes the advice may be blunt. I hope you know it is because those of us commenting really care about you and Dylan.

My reading of articles one can find from various vets and vet clinics as published on the net does include the use of feeding "smelly foods" (which to me includes those fishy blends!), and trying to stimulate your cats appetite before other often needed options of force-feeding and feeding tubes.

I would run all of this by your vet..share just how much Dylan is currently eating and what he is eating, ask about the calorie requirements and if what you are feeding is adequate proteinwise. Several of us have mentioned that aggressive treatment/feeding is key...I have been encouraged by the efforts you list of Dylan eating, but agree it would be a good idea for you to check with your vet if it's enough...and if not, to move to another step.

wishing you and your sweet Dylan, all the best

Pat and Alix,

I use a direct approach for various reasons. The number one reason is to be thorough and to re-connect an owner with their vet because it is the vet who is the only one who knows the cat's history/illness/treatment plan and advises accordingly. I never meant my direct approach to come off sounding as if I didn't truly care....on the contrary, feline health is my profession. Liver diseases are my specialty, primarily Hepatic Lipidosis. Having treated many cats successfully, I share my knowledge and training openly in the hopes of helping further.....owners can then verify with their vets and are encouraged by me to do so.

I was also quick and direct because there are warning signs in the posts. Food aversions lead to finickiness, which in turn lead to poor appetite, not eating, insufficient intake, eventually diarhhea and vomiting. Force feeding an HL cat is often very stressful on the cat...the cat is already compromised by not feeling well, nauseated, ill, depressed, under extreme stress, feeling every effect of the condition (note: stress is the number one predisposition to HL, followed by sudden or drastic weight loss, decreased appetite, poor hydration). When the treatment approach is not followed or consistent for whatever the reason, one can certainly expect failure. The primary treatment approach for the majority of HL cases involves agressive, consistent feeding with the proper diet geared for the condtion. In this case, as I mentioned, A/D, Recovery Formula and other similar veterinary diets are formulated for those specific purposes. It's not enough to have the correct balance of *nutrients* for a specific condition, it is paramount that the diet is formulated and given for the specific need. HL nutritional support demands high protein and calorie content....most commercial canned cat foods do not contain the proper ratio for that need (i.e., liver regeneration). Commercial canned foods may also contain a higher amount of fat (note: HL requires calories, not fat), and since the liver is already compromised with fatty depositis and lipids, fat content is the last thing an HL kitty needs to recover.

Once out of the critical stage, when lab results are normal and all health signs indicate recovery, then the diet can be gradually changed to a more appropriate adult maintenance diet, preferrably low-protein if kitty has a history of liver problems, kidney problems, etc. Each case varies, each kitty has different nutritional requirements based on general health condition, age, lifes stage and whether or not other health conditions are a concern.

The most common failure in HL is when the owner attempts to force-feed at home. Many problems can develop with this approach. Depression, insufficient intake of protein and calories, insufficient amounts on a daily and consistent basis, complications such as vomiting, nasuea, poor fluids support, secondary infections or even secondary organ disfunction can all result in failure of treatment. I'm not saying not to attempt to force feed at home, I'm saying that there is more risk in this approach as opposed to a parenteal feeding tube approach. Many owners are simply non-compliant and will fail to tell their vets if they change the treatment plan or take matters into their own hands. For this reason, it is important to have a working relationship with their vet so that every detail of the treatment plan is met accordingly and that problems are addressed immediately with the vet at the first sign of set-back or secondary illness. Finicky cats can often spell disaster, and my point is that a food aversion or attempting to use too many varieties can cause those aversions and will result in the above mentioned problems..................................Traci

Originally Posted by cat-tech

Pat and Alix,

I use a direct approach for various reasons. The number one reason is to be thorough and to re-connect an owner with their vet because it is the vet who is the only one who knows the cat's history/illness/treatment plan and advises accordingly. I never meant my direct approach to come off sounding as if I didn't truly care....<snip>

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Traci,
As an RN in high risk L&D, I was known for being very direct when a mom in labor wasn't listening and the baby was at risk, I understand.

As I said in my post, I know that all of us responding to this are doing so out of caring and concern, no doubt about that

I am learning a great deal from this thread and appreciate your expertise and your sharing,

I haven't been particularly optimistic about this situation for past two days...But before I talk about that I wanted to address some of the points that Traci made in her two posts (Thanks for the extra info Traci, I will have a lot of questions when Dylan goes in to the vet.)

Dylan has actually not been eating that much fish/tuna (but when he does they are cat foods specifically forumlated for cats and not "people" food, thus have additional vitamins and nutrients added) Several weeks ago, there was about a 4 day period where what he was interested in eating was an Ocean whitefish and tuna fancy feast and was eating two 3oz. cans a day.

Now, his thing is beef. Anything beef. He has ZERO interest in most everything else. He is really into beef. And when he loses interest in cat food, he LOVES gerber beef and gravy baby food. (it is pureed so he can almost drink it--I also compared the protein levels on it, compared to the one remaining can of prescription cat food that vet gave and it had higher protein, lower fat than the cat food.)

AT any rate. The reason initially that there were so many varieties is because he grew up on only dry food and I needed to find out what he liked.

I now know (and might add that I have a gazillion cans of chicken and turkey varieties of cat food that he won't TOUCH!) what his favorites are and it really on varies between about three types, and the only variation is in the texture that I buy it.

I am in very close contact with my vet, speaking to her by phone atleast 2 times a week or so. She calls to check up on how he is doing. (and just as an aside, he has been to the vet now 5 times since MAy 15th.)

When I first switched to this vet about 3 weeks ago, on the first visit, I brought all of Dylan's records from the old vet, AND a very large shopping bag full of every single kind of cat food, cat treat, crunchy food, canned food, baby food, etc. that I have been feeding him...and literally spend 30 minutes going over each with my vet (and several were ruled out by her--the rest got a thumbs up, so long as he ate a specific amount each day)

Now, as for what is going on with Dylan. Last night I really thought that today would be his last day.

It was a terrible thing to think. He has eaten beef and gravy baby food for two days now. (two 3oz. jars a day) He is still drinking water and using the bathroom, but is VERY DEPRESSED.

Yesterday I unplugged the Feliway thingy. I think it may have been upsetting him more, and it wasn't helping with his mood at all.

He is sleeping on the couch next to me now.

I am going to take him to the vet in a little while to see what she wants to do next. (because obviously he can't eat baby food alone)

I am going to ask her to give him some subcutaneous fluids, because they always make him feel better...and may also discuss the feeding tube and if she thinks that is the best thing to do. (she had mentioned that down the road it could be)

AND I am going to request different medication for him, because I can't keep giving him pills. (and he is now only on these antacid pills....the Vet took him off of the antibiotics)

I don't know. I am just not optimistic, even though he is acting mostly normal and is walking around the house and such....I don't know if he will/can beat this. This is terrifying.

Please let us know how the vet apt. goes.

wishing you and Dylan all the best,

sbbeatnik,

I could post a very lengthy and detailed post on nutrients/vitamins/mineral requirements for cats with specific disease, but I will spare you. My original intent was to ensure you understood the *very* specific needs for an HL kitty. Unfortunately, those needs are *not* met with commercial cat foods or other *tempters* and least of all, gerber baby foods. You could take one look at the ingredients and nutrient content of a jar of gerber baby food and make an educated guess that it doesn't contain the *essential* elements of protein, calories....it is not just about protein, it is also about *quality and source* of the protein. Protein and calories are also not the same as fat content.

As previously mentioned, owners commonly mistake tempting with various foods is enough, when actually, this is the most common reason for treatment failure. As also previously mentioned, *consistency* in the type, amount and spefici feeding schedule are crucial to recovery. Without that consistency, failure is likely to result.

You've noted warning signs of failure several times. Originally, Dylan was not eating...over time, he was eating, but not enough.....now he is once again, anorexic and may be suffering dehydration which is also detrimental to the liver. In as simple terms as I can possibly describe, the failure occurs because the consistency was not met. If a cat is not eating, is finicky, turns away all the tempted foods, he is not going to get the intake of crucial protein and calories he needs to regenerate the liver. A bite here and there, or a teaspoon of this or that here and there is defeating the purpose altogether. If there is even one day of anorexia, this can set the disease process back even further, making it much more difficult to treat and expect recovery.

I am more than surprised (and somewhat appalled), that your vet did not follow typical guidelines in treatment when you opted to care for Dylan at home. She should have sent home with you a detailed instruction sheet that included a specific feeding schedule, and she should have sent home with you a prescription diet only and requested you follow the instructions exclusively. She should also have requested a recheck per week to monitor weight, hydration status, perform a liver enzyme check to monitor whether or not the liver was in fact regenerating properly. Perhaps at that point in time, she may have felt Dylan was eating sufficiently on his own, but according to your posts, more than once, that was certainly not the case. Was she completely aware of that? Did she know that Dylan was not eating sufficiently and getting an adequate intake on a *daily* basis? Please understand that while he may have been anorexic one day and may have eaten alittle the next day, this does *not* compensate or make up for the daily requirement and intake he needs.

Again, it's not all about "nutrients and vitamins" in the various cans of foods you're using. It is the correct *ratio* of protein and caloric intake that completes the balance the liver requires for regeneration.

I'm happy to hear that you're getting him seen, and I hope that if your vet advises as such, that you will opt for a parenteal feeding tube if lab results or dehydration or weight loss indicate the need.

On another note, it might interest you to know that A/D contains beef liver. There is nothing that can match this Rx diet (save for similar veterinary diets for HL) as far as palatability, protein/calorie level, and success in treating HL...................................Traci

I am like most cat owners. I love my cat--in fact stike that--I am not like most cat owners...I am not typical. I would not put my pet to sleep simply because he is slightly sick and that the diagnosis is potentially grim...

I instead have done all that I can do...at the expense of every last dime in my bank account from paycheck to paycheck...all has gone towards his care...and the MANY visits to the vet. I took him from a vet who gave me the advice originally to "give him these antibiotics and come back and see me in 4 weeks~but prepare yourself for the worst!" and took him to another vet, with more exerience dealing with this disease--sparing no expense

But, I could not possibly treat Dylan's illness without the help of my Vetrinaraian.

I am doing ever single thing in my power to keep him alive.

Originally Posted by sbbeatnik

<snip>I am not like most cat owners...I am not typical. I would not put my pet to sleep simply because he is slightly sick and that the diagnosis is potentially grim...<snip>

I am doing ever single thing in my power to keep him alive. <snip>

I would do ANYTHING for him.

<snip>
This was my only source of support--and I don't feel like I have that now.

<snip> I am a mother to him, and a caregiver...and I have just been doing the BEST that I can with the support of my vet.
<snip>

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I think you will find that many of the members here are just like you...loving their cats deeply, regarding them as more than a "pet", and doing all that they can, the best that they can, when a crisis arises.

I know all too well some of what you are feeling, due to recent and pending losses of ill cats that are a part of my heart, so I hope you will believe me when I say, you have support here, from me, and from many others I know...I hope you will continue to lean on us when you feel the need.

<<<<hugs>>> and wishing your sweet Dylan recovery,

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

I think you will find that many of the members here are just like you...loving their cats deeply, regarding them as more than a "pet", and doing all that they can, the best that they can, when a crisis arises.

I know all too well some of what you are feeling, due to recent and pending losses of ill cats that are a part of my heart, so I hope you will believe me when I say, you have support here, from me, and from many others I know...I hope you will continue to lean on us when you feel the need.

<<<<hugs>>> and wishing your sweet Dylan recovery,

Click to expand...

Thank you Pat. You are so sweet. It means so much to me, it really, really does.

thank you.

Please know I think you are doing the best you can to save your cat! I know exactly how you feel....my cat Leo has very rare bone marrow cancer, and it took us 2000+ dollars, to find out he has an uncurable disease they pretty much know nothing about in cats, but we are doing all we can to make his life the best we can be while he is still with us......I share your pain, and know who hard it is to see the cat you love so much be sick! Please know I am hoping your vet will help you and your cat get over this. Don't give up. Positive thinking goes a long way. I literaly tell my Leo to keep fighting hard, and how proud I am of him! This is really hard on you, I know that, so please post when ever you need to talk...you are not alone, many of us o this site want to help you deal with whatever will be!

sending eating vibes! munch munch munch!

I've been following your posts for weeks, but have been too grief sticken with my FIP kitty, Kegan, and my adopted persian Taffy, who suddenly had to put to sleep on Monday to reply.

Dylan is Beautiful, and so are you for everything you are doing for him. Perhaps Traci is right about a more agressive approach, which is the feeding tube. But, I know you have a great vet, so i'm sure she's trying other approaches before taking that VERY drastic measure.

Now that is your decision to make. I had mine, Taffy had fatty liver, plus a mass which required surgery, and for me, i did not want to put my beautiful girl through that. She was Dylans' age, no guarantees what would happen after that, plus she needed surgery to remove a tumor in her intestines, and you know, there are worse things than death, especially if you believe in the "rainbow bridge". Unfortunately, Taffy just had to much stacked against her, your Dylan doesn't.

I know from reading your posts how much you love him, God I loved Taffy like that, Kegan, who's only a baby, and my 18 1/2 year old who I had to put down last summer. But you have to think about yourself too. Your weight, health, etc. I lost 10 pounds the last 2 weeks, and i'm slim to begin with, couldn't focus on anything else, and that's not good for you. Please think about all this, i'm concerned for you.

I'm so sorry for what your going through, it's living hell, hard to believe we can love fur faces so much, I know, especially as I don't have children. Please keep me posted, i'm so sorry your suffering like this, Dylan is sooooo lucky to have you .. . .

sbbeatnik, I have been following this thread and I wanted to let you know you have my support. I understand that this is an extremely difficult time for you, and that you're doing everything you possibly can to help your precious Dylan and get him through this crisis. The members on this board are very caring and supportive people who are always willing to listen, and to help when they are able. I hope you will stay with us and will continue to talk to us about Dylan.

sbbeatnik, Please do not feel as if you are doing less than you should. You are doing exactly what your vet feels is best. There are several different treatment protocols that vets follow for HL. I have worked with 7 different vets, and I have also had another 3 that I use outside of my office. Very few of them take the same approach on most treatments. The best thing you can do for Dylan is to work hard with your vet to make him better.

We care so much about you and Dylan and are here to support you anytime!
Stephanie

There are many other personal circumstances that are going on in my life right now that are happening at the same time as this awful thing that is happening to Dylan. And while I was in the midst of dealing with them, Dylan became very ill, something that in a million years I wasn't prepared for.

I always assumed Dylan would be one of the lucky cats that lived to be atleast 18...although I will admit I was hoping he would live to be 20 something. He is like the wise spirit in my house. It is as if he sees into me and knows how to make it all better--like this kindred spirit. (My other 2 cats--the ones that my parents insisted that I give to them many years ago--never had this emotional connection, even though I loved them)

Dylan goes in on Tuesday(payday) for the follow up Blood Chem. and I will know if he has made progress, is the same or is worse. He will also be having several other tests repeated as follow ups to see where he stands. This will be the 10 day follow up. (from when he was admitted to the hospital)

I am going to also request that he get subcutaneous fluids again because they may be helpful. (even though I did see him drink last night.) Does this seem like a good thing to do?? I mean the last two times I had the vet do this, he got a big extra boost of energy because he was super hydrated.

He has been eating mostly gerber beef and gravy baby food since Thursday night (anywhere from 3-6 oz) and has also eaten a couple of bites of regular canned cat food each day as well. Yesterday...after watching me cry for several hours (and walking over to me and trying to comfort me) He went over to the crunchy food bowl and ate a hefty amount of that. And also did so again this morning after licking the gerger baby food mixture. (I mixed some heated beef baby food with some ocean white fich canned cat food & crunchy food and he ate that)

Be hopeful about Dylan. From what my vet told me with Taffy, there is NO way she would eat anything, and she didn't (and I tried everything) But Dylan IS eating, and that is such a positive sign.

FYI, my boy KeKe, who was diagnosed with diabetes and kidney failure at 15, lived another 3 good years, and just to let you know it wasn't with "nutritional" food. He ate nothing but chicken thighs I cooked for him for 2 years, and then the last year he ate only baby food, once in the check-out line a lady said, as I had probably 25 jars of food, he really liked the ham and they would run out of it quickly (I wonder why that was). The lady said, how old is your baby? When I said 18 her mouth dropped open!

Anyway, it is so great he's eating, no matter what it is. Be optimistic, I am. Hang in there, I think you and Dylan will get through this with a happy ending.