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Why do this to cows? - Page 2  

post #31 of 42
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
valanhb>>>Are you seriously saying that we currently do not grow enough food to feed the world's human hungry?

TTMom>>>It certainly has not been proven that there are any amino acids that humans need in meat. In fact, humans evolved primarily as frugivores, and anatomy shows it. If you'd like a "trustworthy" (as in conservative and biased IMO) source: http://www.eatright.org/Public/Gover...s/92_17084.cfm If you can ever find the name of any protein/amino acid required for human health, I can tell you where to get it from nonanimal sources and/or what the human body synthesizes it from.

Some humans are omnivores, some are carnivores...hell, some horses are omnivores. That doesn't make it healthy, and it certainly doesn't make it right. It's just a description of what is. Deliberately inflicting unnecessary suffering is never right, even if it happens.

We need to "treat them horribly" to obtain their flesh far more than we need to enslave and kill them.

There are "good sheep shearers" just like there could be "good slave owners," but they aren't the norm. Pointing to a few exceptions at small family farms doesn't justify any of the exploitation or overall immense suffering involved in the industry.

So do your farms grow organic produce? I was rather surprised at seeing nutrition comparisons between organic and "conventional" foods.

I'm not particularly concerned about plants--rather, I'm concerned about how they affect sentient beings (whether there are animals living in/on them for example). Stress isn't an indicator of sentience; individual cells, bacteria, and plants are living, but this tells us nothing about whether they can feel anything or have any sort of consciousness. Plants are completely devoid of nervous sytems. There is evidence that plants have defensive processes, but none that they're sentient. Evidence of sight is also strangely absent...

I'd like to know more details about that particular "scientific" experiment. There was a lot of noise about this guy who detected electricity from plants that he claimed signified different emotions. Actual scientists trying to reproduce his experiments didn't get any such results (because they weren't "in tune" with the plants or some such). And he later said yogurt was sentient o.O

I did mention that I'm concerned about plants, although not for themselves; destroying trees and such can harm wildlife, farming produces environmental damage, and so on. If you're at all concerned with any of this, why don't you go vegetarian? Seeing as it takes 10 - 20 pounds of soy, corn, wheat, or whatnot to produce a pound of beef, you'd save a lot more plants by not eating animal products. Here's something interesting by a human who doesn't seem to give a crap about nonhuman animals: http://www.earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm

I have a valid reason for not being concerned about equality for plants--they don't have any interests to be concerned about. What's your excuse for nonhuman animals? Or do you think pigs, chickens, and cattle don't have nervous systems either? And I suppose there's no reason pigs wouldn't but cats would, so it shouldn't bother you in the least if anyone boils a cat alive, other than if it were someone's property and the owner didn't want his/her property damaged. Cat juice is rumored (although proven false) to cure arthritis, which has been a problem of mine for years. Hmm.

My goal in life is not to never harm anyone--that would be impossible. Directly or indirectly, from the money I use on myself rather than spending on others to even the roads I use that were produced with animal products, I use or support harm in some way. But when it comes to easy (and these days very slight) changes in my life compared to firstly the suffering and death of not only sentient but very sensitive and intelligent beings, secondly environmental damage, and thirdly my own health, I can't think of a single rational reason to refuse to do it.

squirtle>>>If you do buy only free range, it doesn't bother you at all that the mother and young are separated early (in the case of dairy cows and calves, usually at a day or few), the males are dehorned and castrated without anesthesia, they're slaughtered at a fraction of their lifespan, and so on? The mothers frequently go nuts, perhaps just as much as when a young male is castrated, and I'd consider that a pretty good indicator of what the mom animal feels about it.

I think we all need to take a step back, and get back to the intellectual side of discussion. Please.

post #32 of 42
Here is a piece of news about a sheep that have not been sheared for 6 years. He was too heavy, he couldn't see where he was going.


As for treatment of animals, if you really want good treatment and great beef, try Kobe-Beef. It is GREAT. But kind of expensive at US$100 a pound. Actually, come to think of it I think that is if you purchase it outside a restaurant. For I remembered paying up to $80 for several pieces when I was eating at a restaurant. Make sure if you do try, try also their raw version. When I mean raw I mean totally uncooked much like the fish on the sushi. Or sashimi to be precise. But the cows are massaged, fed beer, and they are brushed with sake to keep their skin soft.

As for the argument that growing crops are more efficient than animals, it seems that this argument implicitly raises the point that there is not enough food in the world. The fact is there is enough food produced to feed everyone, except that due to a certain catch 22 situation, the food cannot be transported to the people who needs the food. Once the US crop producers gave their surplus crops to Africa (or sold it cheaply). People were no longer hungry for the year but it destroyed the local farming industry, which meant that the next year the food shortage became even more acute. Add to the fact that one major complaint from the third world is that the US and EU are not playing by the rules and are subsidising farm production, thereby making it difficult for third world countries to create a farming industry. Throw in the mess of anti-dumping tariff and that many African nations have now become importer of food and of course the difficulty of these people to grow GMO crops due to opposition to it in Europe makes it a huge problem.

Well, as an aside, there are 'growing' alternatives or to food directly from plants or animals. Most are still in research stage at the moment. For example, there is the 'meat' in the test tube, the manufactured food from sewage.

Weatherlight, one inquiry I have is whether do you support GMO crops? I know you are against eating animals so obviously we need not focus on genetically modified animals. So simply genetically modified crops, soy, wheat, etc.
post #33 of 42
While it is hard for people to become complelty veggie,I think it is important people do. I thought slaughter was the worse someone can do,but this,this is gross,sick,inhumane,horrable,tragic,discusting,unhealthy,unberable,THE WORSE I EVER HEARD ANYONE DO!!!!!!!!!!!! How on earth could someone do this.....
post #34 of 42
Weatherlight, your arguments are not making scientific sense.

As for the proof you posted? Can you give me something NOT on the internet? I've worked with the internet for 15 years and do not trust information on it.

As for vegetarians, I believe they are doing as much harm to the environment as omnivores. What do you think processes your veggies.

To truly live without damaging the environment you would have to live on a farm where you produced everything you ate with no relying on anyone else even for electricity or water or gasoline. I don't know of too many people who can do that although many do (and most of them are actually omnivores and extremely conservative in their viewpoints). And even then, if you don't treat the land correctly you could still be making a huge environmental impact.

As a human being you CANNOT live with making an environmental impact. The same goes for plants and animals.
post #35 of 42
Weatherlight, your quote "I have a valid reason for not being concerned about equality for plants--they don't have any interests to be concerned about." shows exactly how you feel. You don't care about anything but creating an argument. This right here shows me to stop right now. Thank you for saying that.
post #36 of 42

post #37 of 42
Thread Starter 
Okay people Enough is enough! I only ask about the tails being cut off cows,NOT anything else. Post as to what I started not anything else.We are all friends here we do not need any slamming. If you don't want to eat meat DON"T but please keep your slamming to yourself.
post #38 of 42
Good job TTmom! Your replies were very well thought and right on the money in my book.
Weatherlight...if you want to be a vegetarian...good for you. That's great that you feel so strongly about something you believe in and are taking a stand on it. But do NOT try to make the rest of us who do enjoy eating meat feel like we are heartless murderers with no respect for animals or nature! I would never belittle or disrespect you for your beliefs, so don't belittle or disrespect mine! I grew up on a farm...yes...a farm where pigs and cows were raised to be eaten. They were treated well...given free roam of the pastures pleniful in grass, never mistreated in any way. But yes...ultimately, they did end up as Iowa chops or ribeye. That's a fact of life in my world...some animals God created for companionship (dogs, cats etc) and some for food. Heck, if you really want to point fingers...better start with God himself...he's the one who (according to the bible) asked that calves be sacrificed unto him on an alter...and they didn't even get to eat them! Now in Genesis...Cain...who might have been a vegetarian, who knows...decided not to offer up a calf like his brother did and offered fruit and veggies instead. God was angry because Cain ignored his commands and Cain was ostersized..made to leave. (of course Cain reacted then by killing his brother, whose life must have been less important than the cows, but that is beside the point)
Anyway...MY point is....I respect your lifestyle...but don't disrespect mine!!! I eat meat. I like it! That does not mean I am heartless. I DO however have a problem with the animals being treated badly before slaughter...this should not happen. I DO have a heart.
post #39 of 42
Sherral, I see this thread as dealing with farm animal welfare - isn't it why you posted it here? I hope I'm not being too OT in my reply then
I am very concerned with the issue of farm animal welfare and just wanted to add that IMO, making it into an argument about vegeterianism is counter productive for the poor animals' sake. Personally, I am not concerend with animal rights, just as I'm not concerend with "child rights". I am concerened for their welfare only. I think it's our responsibility as a society to make sure that the welfare of animals (and children for that matter) is kept within good standards. Yes, by cutting the standards and hurting the welfare of the animals, some farms may become more financially successful, but I think this sould not be allowed. I would, and in fact do, pay much more for milk, eggs and meat that come from small free-range, animal-welfare conscious farms.
Is it morally wrong to kill the animals and eat them? that's a philosophical discussion for me and for me it's more important to focus on getting all animal lovers aware of some of the horrid practices in the big farms and fight for the welfare of those farm animals.
post #40 of 42
Well said! The most important issue here is not if it is right or wrong to eat meat, but the issue of the care of the animals. I have heard horror stories of the way pigs/cows are treated in confinements and it should be outlawed! These animals deserve to be treated well!!!!!!
post #41 of 42
I just want to remind everyone that the purpose of the IMO forum is to provide an opportunity for members to have friendly debates about serious subjects. We are all entitled to our personal opinions, please do not try to force your opinions and beliefs on others.

IMO rule #3
Have a sense of humor! Or walk away before posting, if you need to get your temper under control.
post #42 of 42
Because of continuing problems between members, this thread is now locked.
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