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Feelings on table scraps - Page 2  

post #31 of 55
Weatherlight:

It is my choice, as far as feeding my pets from the table. Since they already receive a measured amount of food per day to meet their needs, any extra is excess calories that one, in particular, does not need. Neither has any interest in consuming vegetables, anyway. From my research and the opinion of my vet, my pets should not be fed from the table. I also do NOT want to encourage their begging or other inappropriate behavior, such as jumping on the table to get food.

As was stated by a couple of other members, it largely seems to be a matter of choice. Please do not continue to ram your opinion down others' throats.
post #32 of 55
For some reason, I'm seeing a pattern of extreme defensiveness, paranoia, and anger based on nothing more than the mention of veganism, even when the supposed target of all this is something completely unrelated to it...hmmmm...

bumpy>>>Do you mean what if you feed meat to bunnies or hamster? In that case, I wouldn't overdo it. For example, rabbits were used in arteriosclerosis studies. Along with animals like monkeys, they developed it quickly when fed saturated fat and cholesterol. Truly omnivorous/carnivorous animals could handle great amounts of both. (I'm opposed to animal experimentation, but the results of this were interesting...hardly anything new though.)

If you meant rabbit or hamster meat to cats...I don't know where hamster meat would be available anyway.

grampngram>>>Well, to me, killing sentient beings isn't a personal choice like whether one likes mushrooms or not, or whether one likes rap music or not. It's a moral issue, like racism, war, or rape. Of course people won't all agree with me at this time, but I thought I'd like to let you know why I take it so seriously and think it's important.

I hate rap, but I don't even take that this seriously

jcat>>>Why would it be cruelty to animals to give them healthy, cruelty-freer diets? After all, there's no health risks of anything except what I mentioned above in cats fed Evolution/Vegecat, which is hardly "cruelty" when managed, and certainly no more cruel that keeping a cat prone to urinary tract problems on a meat-based diet.

iluvcandy>>>Once upon a time, everything I read said that humans need meat protein :P I do hope you read "Obligate Carnivore" sometime, at the least.

Deb25>>>I hardly see how posting my views and factual information is "ramming" down throats. If I'm guilty of doing that, so is everyone else who ever said, typed, or wrote anything.
post #33 of 55
Weatherlight.

I was respectful in my comments toward you. Much more so than you have been toward others.
I eat meat. So do my animals. You aren't changing my mind, and you may want to rethink your methods in making your point. No one here is showing any signs of paranoia or anger except you. This was a benign thread about feeding table scraps. Now it isn't. This is the second thread I've seen in the past 3 days *that started off in a benign manner, only to degenerate into a vegan versus non-vegan thread.*

I'm not buying into your beliefs. You don't like mine.

Get over it.
post #34 of 55
I suppose that we have differing opinions when it comes to respect. The way I see it, I've been much more respectful to everyone else than most have been to me.

It was a thread about table scraps, until hissy and donnageorge (note, NOT me) brought up that cats NEED meat, which is factually incorrect. Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about: other people post a statement that's off topic, I correct them, and then people blame me for the thread going off topic. Why? It's certainly not because I brought the thread off topic. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that they dislike me personally--not, again, for bringing the thread off topic, but for supporting a vegan diet.

Please. Don't be a jerk first and then point fingers at me. You may win a popularity contest around here, but that doesn't prove you right.

And BTW, I have not seen a single mention of PETA or ACA in this thread until your last post.

And AGAIN, if stating one's thought is "forcing opinions," then EVERYONE here is guilty of doing that.
post #35 of 55
Weatherlight

I heve corrected my post above. You will find the correction between the "*"'s
post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
It was a thread about table scraps, until hissy and donnageorge (note, NOT me) brought up that cats NEED meat, which is factually incorrect. Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about: other people post a statement that's off topic, I correct them, and then people blame me for the thread going off topic. Why? It's certainly not because I brought the thread off topic. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that they dislike me personally--not, again, for bringing the thread off topic, but for supporting a vegan diet.
A point of clarification, if I may: The thread was indeed about table scraps, but surely it's not surprising that the content of the table scraps would be pertinent to any discussion of the appropriateness of feeding them? It was the original poster who identified the content as vegan, and it was in response to that, that the cautions were offered about cats' need for a meat diet. There was no attack on veganism.

There has been some vehemence in the rebuttal of your claims that a vegan diet for cats is healthy, but only because you came out with all guns blazing, apparently unwilling to take seriously what experts on the subject tell us over and over. Our first concern on this site is the welfare of our cats -- and yours.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion. You are also entitled to eat whatever diet you want, and to feed your cats however you believe they will be healthy. Others are entitled to do the same, without being put on the defensive for it. And we're all entitled to believe that persons who do not agree with us are misguided in their beliefs. But I hope that we can also believe that none of us acts in this matter out of any motivation other than the welfare of our cats.
post #37 of 55
Firstly, they weren't saying that the table scraps need to be meat, they were saying cats need to eat meat (I don't know about "attack," but this certainly is saying that cats should not be on vegan diets).

Secondly, if talking about whether or not meat should be included in the diet is appropriate in this thread, then there's no reason to find fault with anyone--pro-meat or pro-vegan--for taking part in such a discussion.

Thirdly, I took perfectly seriously the "cats need meat" idea, which I believed for many years. Only after seeing sufficient evidence to the contrary did my thoughts on the matter change. I was not "brainwashed" or any such thing from birth to believe that cats can be vegan "just because." I don't believe anything "just because," actually. Nor do I feel the need to hold my tongue only because my thoughts may be unpopular.

Fourthly, I can agree completely with your last sentence, unless one considers that I care not only about the cats that live with me, but all sentient beings. This is why Robin came from a shelter, not a pet store, for example--irresponsible breeding for profit is not something I'd support, even if one of the kittens was healthy and cute enough for me to want to bring home. This is also why I encourage others to spay and neuter--it doesn't affect Kitty or Robin in the least if some other cat is fixed or not, but it does affect future generations. Kitty and Robin don't benefit from my volunteering at the local shelter, either. This concern for other sentient beings was what led me to vegan cat diets; I only realized the health benefits after looking into it.

If anyone wants to know, there's no need to worry about Kitty and Robin. Although they aren't actually my cats, I do insist they have a high quality of life. We set aside money for them, so we'll never be out of funds when we need to pay the vet. Our feline-only hospital was found after contacting AVAR, because we were disgusted with vets who advertised kitten packages of sterilizations, vaccinations, and partial toe amputations. We don't feed them vegan food because it's cheap--we order it online from the cheapest retailer, the kibble usually in 8 pound bags of 17.50 with 6.95 shipping. We use World's Best litter because I was concerned about silica dust and ingested clumping clay, however unlikely it was to affect our kitties. We buy it in 43 pound bags; Kitty is large and can't move or dig as he'd like to in regular litterboxes, so we got a big underbed storage thing for him to use. When Kitty had a bald spot on his hock, we did ask for all the tests to make sure he didn't have ringworm, any fungus, etc (all came back negative btw, and the fur's growing back--the vet thinks something temporarily stressed him, or he pulled something that got better, and that's what caused the licking). And as I mentioned before, as slim as the chances were that he'd be having urinary tract problems, we asked that they check his urine sample. They're fed four times a day (my friend gets up every morning at 6:30 am to keep to the schedule), along with digestive enzymes and a yeast specifically designed for cats and dogs. The scratching post was 59.50 with 12.50 shipping; we thought Robin would most like that kind. We grow them cat grass in a mixture of vermiculite and peat moss, guaranteed sterile, pest free, fungus free, etc. I think I have better things to do than to keep going (trying to justify keeping our cats lol, which I certainly don't think should be necessary), but hopefully typing this up will save me from having to do it later :P I'm not tossing them vegetables because it's easiest for me and I don't care about them.

^If people won't read that, I don't know how to get it through their heads Can we just get along and be friends now?

P.S. Because it seems humans are likely to take things the wrong way...my description of our efforts to do what's best for the cats is NOT saying we take better care of them than anyone else takes care of theirs. There, a disclaimer ^^
post #38 of 55
Weatherlight

I can possibly point you in the right direction re: the catbox. We were looking for a larger box for our middle kitty that has grown into a "Monster" critter. Walmart here has a catbox that's 23 inches long and 17 inches wide. That's 4 inches longer and 2 inches wider than any other box we could find.

BooBoo now fits and is a happy kitty. (And we're happy to not be cleaning up "stuff" off the floor. )

Hope this helps.


Jeff
post #39 of 55
I just caught onto this thread. ... So glad, I did too .. I never knew tomatoes were dangerous. A few months ago, Winnie ran off with a tomatoe slice. From now on I will be sure to throw out the tomatoes from takeout!
post #40 of 55
Well the topic of the thread was asking for opinions on feeding table scraps. Since somebody turned it into a debate over a meat vs. vegan diet, I'll also quote 2 sources that defend my opinion on the subject:

"CATS NEED MEAT!

Unlike humans and dogs, cats will go blind if they don't eat meat. Cats need taurine, an amino acid found in meat, to keep their eyes in good shape. Many animals can synthesize taurine from vegetable proteins. Cats can't. Cats need their vision for hunting and have excellent night vision and extensive peripheral vision."

And...

"Unlike humans, and even dogs, a cat’s body cannot manufacture all of the essential amino acids it needs. These amino acids are naturally found in certain animals.

The most important amino acid that your cat’s body cannot manufacture is taurine. A taurine deficiency can lead to blindness, heart failure, and reproductive problems.

In short, your cat needs animal-derived protein to stay healthy."
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
It was a thread about table scraps, until hissy and donnageorge (note, NOT me) brought up that cats NEED meat, which is factually incorrect.
After speaking again today with an expert in the field, an animal health and nutrition specialist, he again said that cats are pure CARNIVORES.....that means that they need meat. This isn't opinion, this is a basic scientific fact. Although he conceded that with synthetic taurine (IF they are able to get the ash content at acceptable levels) it is possible for a vegan diet for cat to work, he said overall it will shorten the cats lifespan, they will produce more gas and have excess stool, and "a slew of other issues" because their systems are made to process meat, not vegetables. The cat's basic anatomy, including digestive system, hasn't changed since their domestication which means that to feed them a vegan diet isn't what they are made to process. Basically, you are forcing your morals and values on a creature that doesn't have such qualms about eating meat. A cat doesn't feel sorry for the mouse/bird/lizard that they kill and eat. While I'm sure the formulas for the vegan cat food is as good as possible, it isn't natural for the cat to eat that way. Nothing in the cat's anatomy goes against the premise that they are, in fact, obligate carnivores and have changed in any way to make them herbivores, or even omnivores.
post #42 of 55
The only table scraps my cats get are the ones they sneak away with. I caught Sam with his head in the tub of butter one nite and Sally will tip the trash over for goodies. I do give them pieces of cheese off tacos from Taco Bell every once in awhile. My boyfriend's mom feeds her beagle dogs table food all the time and they weigh 60 pounds each
post #43 of 55
Quote:
I caught Sam with his head in the tub of butter one nite
LOL
post #44 of 55
It's funny now, sure wasnt then!
post #45 of 55
Well neither of my boys get food scrap very often but occasionally they get some. I always drain the juice off of the can chicken I use and they get that. Occasionally they'll get crumbled hamburger or maybe a little steamed fish.

I don't have any problems with them begging though because the get the scraps in their own food bowls, so they just wait patiently. Unless Samwise smells mac and cheese, he seems to have a real desire to try it, maybe some day I'll let him. I haven't found the food that Gandalf is drawn too. My cat growing up had a desire for Pizza.
post #46 of 55
Do you feed table scraps to the other human inhabitants in your house?

I was wondering does your partner, wife, husband, child, maybe even room-mate take bites off your food, I mean if let us say you both are eating at different time.

Just wondering, hehe
post #47 of 55
grampngram>>>We did hear about a 23 inch long box from our vet, but couldn't find it So we got the underbed storage thing at Walmart instead. I think both the cats like it, so we'll just keep using that. But anyway, thanks ^^

Deb25>>>If you can't read that most taurine in many cat foods is NOT from meat, I don't know what else to type.

valanhb>>>How many cats did he observe producing more gas, having excess stool, dying at early ages, and having "a slew of other issues"? I've never heard of any cat on a vegan diet having problem with stool or gas, nor dying of early ages. The only evidence I have about stool or gas is anecdotal--Max would often have horrible gas on some meat-based foods (and his stool would smell terrible too); he doesn't on vegan food.

http://www.vegepet.com/stories.html
http://www.dotphoto.com/GuestViewAlbum.asp?AID=1422707

Perhaps you'd be interested in Olivia, vegan since she was a kitten in '95; or Ashley and Micky who are seven and been vegan for six years; or Jamie who is six and vegan since 8 weeks; or Alpha, Beta, and Gamma who are all 5 years old and vegan "from the get go"; or Mussi who is 14 and vegan since '95; or the three cats (who live with two dogs and a rabbit) who were vegan since November '89; or Melaney, who was 10 and acting it when switched to Vegecat, but "literally racing around and behaving as playfully as a kitten" after two or three weeks on it, and died at the age of 12 after getting hit by a speeding car; or the three cats and three dogs, age ranging 7 to 16, whose people have been using VegePet products for 10 years. If you think any of the cats died immediately after their stories and pictures were sent in, feel free to be suspicious. *shrug* Some people won't be convinced about a vegan diet until vegan pet food manufacturers test their products on animals like this.

bumpy>>>Not really, but I take bites of my friend's food if I feel so inclined :P
post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
It was a thread about table scraps, until hissy and donnageorge (note, NOT me) brought up that cats NEED meat, which is factually incorrect.
We apologize for any misunderstanding from our initial post. There was no intention of ours to be disrespectful towards vegans or vegan diets.

The reason for us stating that quality meat should be the prime ingredient of any cat food was based on information from our readings and from our holistic vet. Our understanding was that taurine and other essentials for cats were best fed naturally from fresh wholesome meat, not as synthetic supplements.

But if your pet is doing well on a vegan-type diet with appropriate supplements, then that's great. After doing further research of our own on the Internet -- and although the jury still seems to be out on the long-term viability of vegan cat food -- we found that there are people who report their cats doing fine on such diets.

But for us, we feel that a quality fresh meat-based diet (aka BARF: "bones and raw food") that contains in itself virtually all the essentials in natural form -- thus reducing the need for further supplements -- is the more nutritious cat food. We particularly look for ready-made raw meat foods that have been derived from animals raised in free-range farms.

Anyways, although we may disagree on the ideal cat food, perhaps we can at least agree that most commercial dry food and canned food is less than ideal.

Regards,
Donna and George
post #49 of 55
Thank you for your post. And I certainly can agree that most commercial dry and canned foods are less than ideal.

BTW, just a tip: "free range" and "organic" are not the same (I'm speaking U.S. labels here). For the health of your cat/s, I would suggest looking for meat that has both labels. "Free range" animals can still be given growth hormones and antibiotics and fed pretty much anything; "organic" animals can still be put in small cages next to each other 24/7. Also, as you live in Canada, try to look for meats that have not been imported. U.S. slaughterhouses, for example, are far filthier than Canadian ones, with much higher rates of disease contamination.
post #50 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
valanhb>>>How many cats did he observe producing more gas, having excess stool, dying at early ages, and having "a slew of other issues"? I've never heard of any cat on a vegan diet having problem with stool or gas, nor dying of early ages. The only evidence I have about stool or gas is anecdotal--Max would often have horrible gas on some meat-based foods (and his stool would smell terrible too); he doesn't on vegan food.

http://www.vegepet.com/stories.html
http://www.dotphoto.com/GuestViewAlbum.asp?AID=1422707
So, basically, you will dismiss any and all scientific evidence that is contrary to your beliefs, right? Doesn't matter where they come from, you will find fault with it. Fine. The fact that this is his business, his livelihood, and his responsibility to keep up with the latest scientific evidence to keep animals healthy, that he understands animal anatomy, at least pertaining to nutrition, as well or better than most vets, that he has seen scientific studies and nutrition formulas for longer than you've even been alive.... But hey, dismiss it outright because you don't want to see anything contrary to what you believe.

I learned long ago that anyone can produce evidence to support their viewpoint. Obviously no one will change your mind, nor will you change mine. My source has nothing to gain by saying that cats are not anatomically structured to efficiently digest vegetable matter. Your sources do....
post #51 of 55
I don't think someone saying something, without ANYTHING to back it up (what, did he see one cat fart from eating soybeans? how am I to know if you're afraid to or otherwise won't tell me?), is "scientific evidence." It only doesn't matter where opinions come from; they're still opinions! Doctors used to say smoking is healthy; this, too, was opinion. Blindly following someone's opinion because they're a "specialist" isn't something I like to do. It seems we differ in that respect.

If I told you that a "specialist" said that kittens should be taken away from their mothers at one week, would you believe me or the "specialist" if my word was all you had to go on? Would you not find it offensive if I accused you of dismissing "scientific evidence" because it's contrary to your beliefs?
post #52 of 55
www.apperon.com

If you want "scientific evidence" just ask Dr. Pusillo.

Cats thrive best on a properly supplemented, raw MEAT diet.

Granted the source may be somewhat biased due to his selling supplements, however this doesn't affect the viability of true scientific evidence.

Also, it must be noted that for many years now most domestic cats have been fed a mixed diet, and as such, their bodies have indeed adapted to being able to derive some nutrition from non-meat elements in their diet.

I deal more with exotic species of cat, which have not had anywhere near the amount of time to generate such an adaptation.

I'm absolutely positive that domestic cats can thrive on both a vegan and a strict raw meat diet. Both diets need supplementation, however there is no effective argument against the following statment:

"Domestic cats are naturally designed to consume meat, they are a predatory animal, designed to hunt and kill and process live prey, from their external physique to their internal organ design, especially the digestive system."

Just my thoughts on the matter. And for the record, I do not support efforts to further veganism in a true carnivore, I have plenty of practical experience with a properly balanced raw meat diet, and have seen numerous benefits from such a diet.

I do not feed table scraps, even meat. I would not reccomend feeding table scraps at all, simply because human food is typically cooked and seasoned for our tastes, neither the cooking process nor the seasoning process are beneficial to a cat.

Spotz
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
BTW, just a tip: "free range" and "organic" are not the same (I'm speaking U.S. labels here). For the health of your cat/s, I would suggest looking for meat that has both labels. "Free range" animals can still be given growth hormones and antibiotics and fed pretty much anything; "organic" animals can still be put in small cages next to each other 24/7. Also, as you live in Canada, try to look for meats that have not been imported. U.S. slaughterhouses, for example, are far filthier than Canadian ones, with much higher rates of disease contamination.
Yep, forgot to mention "organic" earlier. The food we get from a Canadian maker, Amore (www.amorepetfoods.com), is organic as well. For instance, here's what's listed on one of their packagings:

Amore Turkey and Veggie cat food - 100g (3.8oz)

Ingredients:
B.C. (province of British Columbia) free-range turkey raised without antibiotics or growth hormones (muscle meat, bones, liver and heart), carrots, parsnips, squash, yams, kale, parsley, free-range eggs, salmon oil, and Flack's Ultrakelp.
post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherlight
I don't think someone saying something, without ANYTHING to back it up (what, did he see one cat fart from eating soybeans? how am I to know if you're afraid to or otherwise won't tell me?), is "scientific evidence." It only doesn't matter where opinions come from; they're still opinions! Doctors used to say smoking is healthy; this, too, was opinion. Blindly following someone's opinion because they're a "specialist" isn't something I like to do. It seems we differ in that respect.

If I told you that a "specialist" said that kittens should be taken away from their mothers at one week, would you believe me or the "specialist" if my word was all you had to go on? Would you not find it offensive if I accused you of dismissing "scientific evidence" because it's contrary to your beliefs?
First, I don't need to see studies from him because I trust him implicitly and I know that what he says in this field is almost beyond reproach. I didn't ask him for studies because, as far as the anatomy goes, this is basic knowledge. I realize you don't know him from Adam, and I suppose I should have given more experience reference for him...He's been WORKING in this industry for over 35 years. This isn't just something he reads up on to support his beliefs, it is his living. If he promotes false science, animals die. If he doesn't keep up with the latest findings on animal nutrition, he loses business. He's been nationally recognized in his field for excellence multiple times, in fact more times in the past 10 years than anyone else in his field.

There is a difference between just spouting opinions and giving an "opinion" based on 35+ years of professional knowledge. So, you know, he's been around since this whole vegan for cats thing started. As much as you have from a consumer's view, in the accepted scientific community he hasn't seen anything to say that we should all just give up meat for our carnivore cats or that it is acceptable to do so.
post #55 of 55
I am closing this thread as it is no longer productive.

Thank you.
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