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post #61 of 89
Thread Starter 
Actually, I did go to a higher authority...her superior was also a woman. When we all sat down together the teacher said that she made that comment to me after overhearing my fiance "ordering me to come home right after class", which she assumed meant that he was abusing me. When I explained that just because he told me to come home right after class doesn't mean that he's abusing me, her superior told her that she owed me an apology....but that she didn't have to change my grade!

I know not all feminists act like "man-haters" or treat anti-feminist women like me poorly...but the vast majority do. They make good feminists, like the ones on here, look bad.

And for whoever asked, I always stand up for my rights, but I back everything up with fact, because as my Comm prof said; "Opinions based in fact are the only ones that count." The fact is, my Sociology prof had no right to fail me just because I wouldn't admit "abuse" that never existed. She failed me simply for this.
post #62 of 89
I don't think feminism means men suck, I just think it means GIRLS ROCK! Men do too, but GIRLS ROCK!
post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceneilsgirl
Actually, I did go to a higher authority...her superior was also a woman. When we all sat down together the teacher said that she made that comment to me after overhearing my fiance "ordering me to come home right after class", which she assumed meant that he was abusing me. When I explained that just because he told me to come home right after class doesn't mean that he's abusing me, her superior told her that she owed me an apology....but that she didn't have to change my grade!

I know not all feminists act like "man-haters" or treat anti-feminist women like me poorly...but the vast majority do. They make good feminists, like the ones on here, look bad.

And for whoever asked, I always stand up for my rights, but I back everything up with fact, because as my Comm prof said; "Opinions based in fact are the only ones that count." The fact is, my Sociology prof had no right to fail me just because I wouldn't admit "abuse" that never existed. She failed me simply for this.
VNG, there is no way that you have met "the vast majority of feminists" I believe I'm a heck of alot older than you...and I doubt I've met 5%! You can't stereotype...that's the root of prejudice. Prejudice and ignorance of all groups is a terminal disease in this country.
post #64 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
VNG, there is no way that you have met "the vast majority of feminists" I believe I'm a heck of alot older than you...and I doubt I've met 5%! You can't stereotype...that's the root of prejudice. Prejudice and ignorance of all groups is a terminal disease in this country.

As I've said about 900 times, I'm not stereotyping. Being Jewish I'd be the last person to do that. The fact is that the majority of feminists that I've met do act that way. Also, have you ever been to the Ms. boards? Most of them on there act that way. I realize that there are some feminists that are good, but the fact that I've been harassed and forced to retake a course because some idiot who calls herself a feminist failed me because she doesn't like the fact that I let my fiance take the lead in our relationship simply proves my point.

On a side note, this same professor also teaches a womens studies course. Though I'd never take a class like that a friend of mine did and the professor said two things that I found very interesting. First, she said that she became involved in feminism after being a victim of rape. This makes me wonder if maybe her hate toward men and anti-feminist women is more about trauma and less about actually caring about womens rights. The second thing she talked about in her course was how some women manipulate their birth control pills so that they won't have a period. The interesting thing is that she actually RECOMENDED this to her class! She said that; "have control over this is another way to make yourself equal with a man". But isn't it dangerous to manipulate nature like that?
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceneilsgirl
Actually, I did go to a higher authority...her superior was also a woman. When we all sat down together the teacher said that she made that comment to me after overhearing my fiance "ordering me to come home right after class", which she assumed meant that he was abusing me. When I explained that just because he told me to come home right after class doesn't mean that he's abusing me, her superior told her that she owed me an apology....but that she didn't have to change my grade!

I know not all feminists act like "man-haters" or treat anti-feminist women like me poorly...but the vast majority do. They make good feminists, like the ones on here, look bad.

And for whoever asked, I always stand up for my rights, but I back everything up with fact, because as my Comm prof said; "Opinions based in fact are the only ones that count." The fact is, my Sociology prof had no right to fail me just because I wouldn't admit "abuse" that never existed. She failed me simply for this.
This teacher should not have made assumptions about your boyfriend based on what you said. I don't know the reason behind her not backing you but if you know for sure that there is something going on, ie: something she has said, with witnesses, then you can go over their heads - to the head of department, or to someone who handles grievances and investigates accordingly.
Also, you can make a formal complaint to the school about how she has treated you - they do have people who work with cases like that - if you feel that she has treated you unfairly because you want to be a wife and mother, then something needs to be done - whatever happened to individual free will? WHatever you want to do is your free will, not because someone tells you what to do, and this woman, in my opinion can go where the sun doesn't shine.
post #66 of 89
So... when you say the "vast majority" you mean your teacher who failed you. And Jewish or not (I don't really understand how being Jewish would make you immune to prejudice, but, ok), what you said really did come off as prejudice.

Aqua
post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceneilsgirl
The second thing she talked about in her course was how some women manipulate their birth control pills so that they won't have a period. The interesting thing is that she actually RECOMENDED this to her class! She said that; "have control over this is another way to make yourself equal with a man". But isn't it dangerous to manipulate nature like that?
Interesting side subject - actually, that is a common treatment for conditions like endometriosis. There are also arguments that it is unnatural for women to go through life having a period every month for years & years, as is common with the current tendency to delay childbearing. Some doctors actually recommend manipulating periods to occur only a few times a year as a potential means to lenghten fertile years (the jury's still out on that idea, though). Pill use can even be manipulated for convenience's sake for honeymoons & vacations - check with your doctor first, of course. http://www.noperiod.com/
post #68 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties
Interesting side subject - actually, that is a common treatment for conditions like endometriosis. There are also arguments that it is unnatural for women to go through life having a period every month for years & years, as is common with the current tendency to delay childbearing. Some doctors actually recommend manipulating periods to occur only a few times a year as a potential means to lenghten fertile years (the jury's still out on that idea, though). Pill use can even be manipulated for convenience's sake for honeymoons & vacations - check with your doctor first, of course. http://www.noperiod.com/
There IS a new pill, that keeps periods down to every four months. Personally, I don't like jacking around with normal body functions if it can be avoided. It sounds as if this teacher was dispensing medical advice, without a license. And what exactly does manipulating periods have to do with "equality with men"?
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceneilsgirl
Actually, I did go to a higher authority...her superior was also a woman. When we all sat down together the teacher said that she made that comment to me after overhearing my fiance "ordering me to come home right after class", which she assumed meant that he was abusing me. When I explained that just because he told me to come home right after class doesn't mean that he's abusing me, her superior told her that she owed me an apology....but that she didn't have to change my grade!

I know not all feminists act like "man-haters" or treat anti-feminist women like me poorly...but the vast majority do. They make good feminists, like the ones on here, look bad.

And for whoever asked, I always stand up for my rights, but I back everything up with fact, because as my Comm prof said; "Opinions based in fact are the only ones that count." The fact is, my Sociology prof had no right to fail me just because I wouldn't admit "abuse" that never existed. She failed me simply for this.
What was the grade in this class actually based upon? Tests? Term paper? Class participation alone?
post #70 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarius
So... when you say the "vast majority" you mean your teacher who failed you. And Jewish or not (I don't really understand how being Jewish would make you immune to prejudice, but, ok), what you said really did come off as prejudice.

Aqua
Please re-read my post more carefully. It isn't just her...its every feminist I have ever met, and the people on the Ms. boards. Obviously not every feminist is like that...but EVERY SINGLE one I've ever met is.

Also, I do think being Jewish makes you more immune to being prejudiced than other people, because a big teaching of Judaism is tolerance. I've never met a Jewish person who was prejudiced...ever. Also, feminism is a political belief. To me, you can only be prejudiced against someone for race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, age, or econmic status. You can PROBABLY be prejudiced against a feminist based on their sex, but I doubt I'd be like that since I'm a chick....you can't be sexist against your own sex.

And what about the prejudices these feminists have shown against me? The fact is that there are feminists out there who aren't basing their opinions in fact...they are simply coming out and saying; "All men are evil and all women have to be feminist and if you aren't there is something wrong with you". Good feminists need to be fighting against feminists like this...for all of womankind.
post #71 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucia
What was the grade in this class actually based upon? Tests? Term paper? Class participation alone?
It was based on all three. The fact is, I was getting an A before her and I had the argument. Suddenly, the next day, a bunch of my assignments that I had handed into her disapeared, and she gave me Fs on all of them and said; "Even though I lost them you can't redo them". Then, when we took the final she lost that. So, I failed a course that I shouldn't have because she is, for lack of a better word, stupid. Then, when we were meeting with her superior, I find it odd that she said; "If you would just admit that you're being abused everything will be fine." If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does!

The second time I took the course under a different professor I passed with an A, like I always do.
post #72 of 89
I think if you have a problem with every single person you have ever met who is a feminist, the problem may not be the feminists. JMHO. How people relate to you may depend on how you approach them -- have you considered this?

And you can be prejudice against feminists. Prejudice can pertain to any group of people. Even Jews can be prejudice (as Jew myself, I have known a few.)

Just out of curiousity, why are you posting on the Ms. boards (The feminist magazine, I am assuming?) when you are so anti-feminist? That would be a lot like me charging into a KKK discussion group preaching black rights -- I don't think it would get rave reviews.

Aqua
post #73 of 89
Thread Starter 
I didn't know you were Jewish! Cool!

And I don't post on the Ms boards...I just read the posts. I would never post there.

I actually didn't do anything to get attacked by these people, nor did I do anything to receive a failing grade. All I did was act feminine, say that I want to be a wife and mom, wear miniskirts and makeup, and let my fiance take the lead in our relationship. None of those things is worth of attack and harrassment.
post #74 of 89
I'm now curious about something. I noticed on the new Lounge thread on education that you said you were 'home-schooling', taking classes from a college in Iowa while living in Florida. So when did your run-in with the feminists occur?
post #75 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucia
I'm now curious about something. I noticed on the new Lounge thread on education that you said you were 'home-schooling', taking classes from a college in Iowa while living in Florida. So when did your run-in with the feminists occur?
When I still lived in Iowa I took a couple of courses in an actual classroom. The sociology class was one of them.
post #76 of 89
I believe in Human rights
post #77 of 89
Um, VNG, but I wonder if perhaps you might have unknowingly brought out some negative attitudes in the feminists you've dealt with by making comments such as the one you recently posted in the Lounge - "most girls aren't good at math".


My mother's undergrad degree was in math, and she worked as a math teacher while getting her advanced degrees. She was also the only female studying in her advanced field at her University, and took a LOT of heat from the men around her for daring to go into the male-dominated scientific fields of Geology and Paleontology. She endured all sorts of harassment and discrimination throughout her years of study.

For an older woman in a field who has had to fight for every inch of progress simply because she's a woman to hear such comments from a young woman who not only takes all of women's current freedoms for granted but also disrespects those who were on the front lines fighting for those freedoms, would be highly offensive.


The reason 'most girls aren't good at math' is simply that they're expected not to be good at math!


You have the freedom to make the choice of where you want to go in your life, and what you want to be, because of previous feminist pioneers. If you choose to be a housewife, that's fine and perfectly respectful, but be aware that it's a choice now instead of a requirement because of the work of feminists. As you go to the polls to vote, thank the feminists. As you choose who you wish to marry rather than having your father choose for you, thank the feminists. As you go to the doctor and are treated with respect as a human rather than as "some broad having the vapors", thank the feminists.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedokitties
Um, VNG, but I wonder if perhaps you might have unknowingly brought out some negative attitudes in the feminists you've dealt with by making comments such as the one you recently posted in the Lounge - "most girls aren't good at math".


My mother's undergrad degree was in math, and she worked as a math teacher while getting her advanced degrees. She was also the only female studying in her advanced field at her University, and took a LOT of heat from the men around her for daring to go into the male-dominated scientific fields of Geology and Paleontology. She endured all sorts of harassment and discrimination throughout her years of study.

For an older woman in a field who has had to fight for every inch of progress simply because she's a woman to hear such comments from a young woman who not only takes all of women's current freedoms for granted but also disrespects those who were on the front lines fighting for those freedoms, would be highly offensive.


The reason 'most girls aren't good at math' is simply that they're expected not to be good at math!


You have the freedom to make the choice of where you want to go in your life, and what you want to be, because of previous feminist pioneers. If you choose to be a housewife, that's fine and perfectly respectful, but be aware that it's a choice now instead of a requirement because of the work of feminists. As you go to the polls to vote, thank the feminists. As you choose who you wish to marry rather than having your father choose for you, thank the feminists. As you go to the doctor and are treated with respect as a human rather than as "some broad having the vapors", thank the feminists.
Excellent points Tux. My niece scores in the top 2% in the US in her math exams. And yes girls/women are not expected to be good in math or the sciences. Girls are really starting to achieve in those subjects..and in some areas surpassing the boys.
VNG something has been bugging me, your screen name. I dont know who Vince O'Neil is, but you identify as "his girl". you don't even have your own identity.Maybe Vince O'neil (I am off the radar screen with this stuff) a celeb, then I think it's in fun. If he is your Boyfriend, it's another story. I'm not trying to be harsh...just look at it. You are your own bright person...even if we don't agree. I do it with my cat's name, but it's for fun, an animal can't own me. I dont know, I'm sure you think I am wrong in stating this, but It's just wrong to hide yourself, you seem to have a lot to give.
post #79 of 89
Wasn't there some study about girls not being called on as much in math classes or something? I love math -- I have taken calculus 1, 2, and 3 with very good grades, and of my own free will. My sister has taken the same classes with perfect grades (she had the top grade in the class). Then in college, I took calculus again (to jog my memory), and my teacher was a woman who was also the head of the entire math department on campus.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that scientists thought women were drastically less intelligent than men -- that was found to be incorrect too.

Aqua
post #80 of 89
Thread Starter 
Psychologists and sociologists have done studies on this. And on the average men do better at math than women do, but women do better at social sciences than men do. It has to do with the way we think. men are more analytical in their thinking. Some girls are great at math...my best friend being one. Hey, she did all of my math assignments all through our JHS and HS years. But then again I did all of her history assignments!

I don't think ability to do math has anything to do with intelligence...although some people see it that way. I have a high IQ, but I couldn't do math to save my life. I usually pass with a D, which is good enough for me.
post #81 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom of Franz
Excellent points Tux. My niece scores in the top 2% in the US in her math exams. And yes girls/women are not expected to be good in math or the sciences. Girls are really starting to achieve in those subjects..and in some areas surpassing the boys.
VNG something has been bugging me, your screen name. I dont know who Vince O'Neil is, but you identify as "his girl". you don't even have your own identity.Maybe Vince O'neil (I am off the radar screen with this stuff) a celeb, then I think it's in fun. If he is your Boyfriend, it's another story. I'm not trying to be harsh...just look at it. You are your own bright person...even if we don't agree. I do it with my cat's name, but it's for fun, an animal can't own me. I dont know, I'm sure you think I am wrong in stating this, but It's just wrong to hide yourself, you seem to have a lot to give.
You don't agree that I'm bright? I'm sad now! But thank you for saying I have a lot to give.

Vince Neil is a celeb...he's the lead singer of my fave band Motley Crue. I wish I was his girlfriend! J/K I'm engaged to the love of my life. I wouldn't trade Zach for 100 Vince Neils!

Speaking of which, I go by the SN zachsgirl on Beliefnet because someone else was already using Vinceneilsgirl! It has nothing to do with him owning me...I am his girl! And while I am "my own person", I like the way he protects me and guides me. I need that....trust me, you didn't grow up in my home.

I would like to point out though that anyone uncomfortable calling me Vinceneilsgirl or VNG can call me by my first name...it's Staci.
post #82 of 89
I'm just catching up with this thread. Very interesting discussion of feminism.

I think there are a lot of valid points on both sides.

But there are a couple things I wanted to say, as someone who really doesn't have strong feelings about feminism or feminists one way or another.... Staci, you said every feminist you have ever met is horrible, basically. Do you know how many people you have met are feminists? I would bet quite a few people you know have the same ideals as the women in this discussion, but they don't necessarily make it their only topic of conversation. Obviously, it isn't something that permeates every conversation here, even though we definitely have some who feel very strongly about women's rights and most surely consider themselves feminists.

If I may be so bold as to amend your statement, I think that every FEMI-NAZI you have met is horrible. These are the ones who cannot fathom a woman wanting to be sexy and attractive to men, the ones who hate men in general, the ones who think being a wife and mother is somehow demeaning to all women (yet where would they be without a mother of their own, who most likely was the wife of some... *gasp* MAN!). But to classify everyone who holds this ideal of being a "feminist" to that standard would be the same as saying that every animal rights activist is an eco-terrorist. It may be true of some, but definitely not true of all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceneilsgirl
Also, feminism is a political belief. To me, you can only be prejudiced against someone for race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, age, or econmic status. You can PROBABLY be prejudiced against a feminist based on their sex, but I doubt I'd be like that since I'm a chick....you can't be sexist against your own sex.

And what about the prejudices these feminists have shown against me?
I have to beg to differ with this statement, too. First, how can it not be possible to be prejudiced against a political belief but they are prejudiced against you because you don't believe the same thing as them? Beyond that, it is very much possible to be prejudiced against a political belief. I've seen it here myself, because on a mainly liberal board I make no excuses for being a conservative Republican. A whole lot of liberals think that you have to be a redneck idiot to be a conservative. Generally, after people get to know me they at least don't see me in that light, but I certainly have gotten that vibe before....
post #83 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by valanhb
If I may be so bold as to amend your statement, I think that every FEMI-NAZI you have met is horrible. These are the ones who cannot fathom a woman wanting to be sexy and attractive to men, the ones who hate men in general, the ones who think being a wife and mother is somehow demeaning to all women (yet where would they be without a mother of their own, who most likely was the wife of some... *gasp* MAN!). But to classify everyone who holds this ideal of being a "feminist" to that standard would be the same as saying that every animal rights activist is an eco-terrorist. It may be true of some, but definitely not true of all.
Exactly! And as I said, I didn't mean "every" feminist.

I like being sexy and attractive, and I want to be a wife and mommy. These things are important to me as a woman. And you're right...where would all those Femi-Nazis be without their moms?

Thank you for helping me clarify things.
post #84 of 89
I think this article is a really good discussion on the topic of feminism - and for the record, I am a feminist myself.
http://www.tomatonation.com/youare.shtml
post #85 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by crzacctgrl
I think this article is a really good discussion on the topic of feminism - and for the record, I am a feminist myself.
http://www.tomatonation.com/youare.shtml
Crzacctgrl...excellent article, too bad a lot of men and women won't "get-it."
post #86 of 89
As someone who volunteers for a Women's Center, has subscriptions to Bitch and Ms., has performed in The Vagina Monolouges, anually participates in Take Back The Night and actually owns the 'This is what a Feminist Looks Like' t-shirt, I'd say that yes, I'm a feminist.

And I'd like to clarify something about the moderm movement. A lot of people assume that everyone who lables themself a feminist is unshaven, radical, outspoken, man-hating lesbian. I can assure you, as a mover and shaker within the modern feminist movement, that this is not the case. Your average moderate, mainstream feminist wants one thing (well, in general, at least) and one thing only: the breaking down and death of societal gender roles. We don't want women to feel they must be subordinate, or housewives or even working mothers who have the dual role as homemaker as well. We don't want women to have to play dumb or pretend not to be tough or competitive. On the same note, men should be able to show emotions, take peternity leave, be a stay-at-home dad, show weakness...

Feminism, in its most mainsream form believes that all of the bad things that happen as far as domestic abuse, Friedan's condition with woman that could not be named, bullying, etc., all come from these gender roles. By breaking them down and erradicating them, we would be making all of these a thing of the past, at least hopefully.

From this would also come a greater unity between men and women because all of the stereotypes would be defunct.

We're not all extremists. You wouldn't label me as a feminist if you saw me walking down the street giggling in my skirt holding hands with my boyfriend. The moral of the story here is that we come in all shapes and sizes. We have a different of beliefs and ideals and golas withing our movement, but the above is at the heart of it. We by no means hate men or are all hippy lesbians, which is usually what people I encounter tend to assume.

I am proud to be a feminist.
post #87 of 89
In the line of work I do..I deal with the stereotypical roles that are placed on women on a regular basis. I've been working as a commercial pilot for the past 5 years and I have run into my fare share of idiots....both male and female...strangely enough.

I believe in equality not superiority. All I ask in my workplace is that they treat me exactly the same. No better...no worse. I run into alot of women that rely way too much on their sex and not their skill. They figure that because companies need to meet quota's that they can be crappy pilots and still get hired...which sad to say is somwhat true!!

Ahhh!, well that's my take on it. That is my biggest rant on the issue of women's rights.
post #88 of 89
Feminism is not a bad thing that many people think it is. It is simply people, men an dowmen, who want women to be treated equally in every aspect of daily life.
post #89 of 89
Of course I'm a feminist. I have a lot to say, but I think everything's already been covered.
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