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Question for a breeder....

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I finally got Lily's vet papers from my friend who gave her to me. She included her adoption paperwork from the humane society. It says that she is a "seal point siamese mix" but she really doesn't look siamese to me at all, especially compared to Dante.

There are a few photos of her at the begining and end of this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...threadid=33964

Could someone who knows a lot about breeds please offer some advice on what her bloodline could be? I'm confused by this.

Thanks so much!! I really appreciate your expert advice!
post #2 of 12
Lilly is a very pretty Seal Lynx Point Domestic Shorthair (Mixed Siamese = Domestic Shorthair, as Mixed Anything = Domestic Shorthair or Longhair according to hair length, officially). The gene which causes Siamese cats to have color on the tips is the colorpoint gene, which prevents pigmentation on hair shafts according to local body temperature (hence on cold areas like the face and tail you get pigmentation). When you mix the colorpoint gene with a tabby coat you get lynx points, which are tabby markings on the points (face, ears, paws, tail). Any cat or cats which carry the colorpoint gene (Siamese, Himalayan, Birman, etc...) could have contributed the colorpoint gene to her genetic makeup (though the colorpoint gene almost certainly originated in the Siamese cats at some point in the far distant past). The tabby genetics could come from anywhere.

Dante is like wise a Seal Point w/White Domestic Shorthair (Similar to a Snowshoe though). He also has the active colorpoint genetics as well as the Non-Agouti gene (which suppresses the tabby markings for solid coloration) and the Piebald White Spotting gene (which causes the white paws). The Piebald White Spotting gene is highly complex and can cause many variations in white spotting, from the Birman on one end (Similar to your Dante) to the Turkish Van on the other (which is all white except for the tail and two spots by the ears).
post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 
Wow!! Thank you so much. I really appreciate your input. Sounds like the humane society that listed Lily's breed was lookin' at the wrong cat! hehe I'm going to print out your great response and keep it with both cat records for future reference.
post #4 of 12
Just to confuse you (no, not really!!) I'd call Lily a tortie-lynx point (using CFA color definitions)...you can see that she has spots of red and cream color in her paws (and from the sideview, it looks as if perhaps her nose has some pinkish cream splashed on it). This, along with her bracelets (on her legs) and the rings on her tail, would make her a tortie-lynx. If you do a google search for images and put in seal lynx and then tortie-lynx point it should show you both so you can see the difference. This pix below is of my beloved Bookie<RB> who was a blue tortie point (in TICA) called a blue-cream point in CFA...meaning she has the blaze you often see on a tortie, as well as the spots of cream and red...if this were a full body pix, you'd see her feet and toes resembled the pattern on Lilly. Who, btw, is lovely!

post #5 of 12
Thread Starter 
You're right, she does kind of look like that photo of your tortie. (VERY cute by the way! ) I was kind of thinking tortie, but I'm completely uneducated about breeds so that's why I asked you experts! She does have a wide variety of colors all kind of swirled up into one... she has light and dark brown mixed with grey and white and one of her feet almost looks yellow!!

Thanks for your help!
post #6 of 12
Yep I would definitly have to agree with Pat on this one. Lily doesn't have any white on her does she?? Well if she doesn't I wouldn't classify her as a "pointed" just a Seal tortie DS. Or..?? Correct me if I'm wrong.
post #7 of 12
Originally posted by WellingtonCats
Yep I would definitly have to agree with Pat on this one. Lily doesn't have any white on her does she?? Well if she doesn't I wouldn't classify her as a "pointed" just a Seal tortie DS. Or..?? Correct me if I'm wrong.
She isn't "just a seal torti" because she is pointed. She just has a lot of shadeing. As pointed cats get older they often darken up and thats why you see her markings all over her body, a seal torti would be much, much darker.
post #8 of 12
Thread Starter 
Boy, now I'm really confused! hehehe

Yes, she does have white on her.. mostly just on her chest but I guess you could say there is some white scattered within, too.

Thanks for all the input, everyone!!! (Lily sends her thanks, too!)
post #9 of 12
First of all, let me say that Lily is a beautiful cat! If she was not a mix, but was actually registered as a Siamese/Colorpoint Shorthair, she would be classified as a seal torbie (aka seal tortie lynx) point. She definitely has the lynx point markings, as well as the tortie markings. If I didn't know she was a mix, I would say she was a Colorpoint. As a traditional Siamese and Colorpoint Shorthair breeder, I am familiar with her markings...I have had several kittens that look like her. Once again, you have a beautiful kitty!

Serenade/Obsession Cattery
post #10 of 12
Dantesmom, How old is Lilly?

NASAnaut, I'm not convinced she is a color point, especially if she has bits of white scattered over her, and I'm guessing Lilly is young and she wouldn't darken so quickly.

Sorry if I've confused you, I think I've confused myself,to Whatever Lilly is, she's beautiful.
post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 
"How old is Lilly?"

She's about two. She's still a youngin'!
post #12 of 12
Lilly is definitely a "colorpoint." This is easily determined by the fact that on her legs and head (I can't really see much tail in any of the pictures shown) she has very clear tabby markings and on her body it is a very washed out color with no tabby markings visible. She could be "pointed" or "mink" it is hard to tell many times, both "pointed" and "mink" are forms of the colorpoint genetic expression. There are three forms of the "colorpoint" gene, and three types of colorpointed coats (pointed, sepia, and mink), but read on please.

The first and most common type of gene is the non-colorpoint gene (we will call it C, apologies to Gloria Stephens), this gene causes a cat to have normal (no colorpoints) and is dominant; so if a cat has just one copy of this gene it will be a full color cat, this is the gene that all non pointed cats express. The second gene mutation is the pointed gene (let's call it c(s)), this gene causes the color to be extremely washed out on the torso (where the cat is the hottest), almost, but not quite white. You have to have two copies of this gene to be a "pointed" cat as it is recessive, examples of cats that are pointed are Siamese and Himalayan. Note that often Siamese and Himalayan are often of varying shades on their torsos, darkening often occurs with age (as the cat's circulation grows poorer), but not neccessarily. The third gene is the sepia gene (c(b)). This gene is similar in action to the pointed gene, but less so. Again it is recessive, so you need to copies to be "sepia." The sterotype example of this colorform is the Burmese (American), the color is only very slightly washed out on the torso. If you mix the sepia and pointed genes you get the third type of colorpoints: mink. Mink cats show washed out color on the torso less than pointed cats but more than sepia cats, the classic example here is the Tonkinese. Note that color point genes can be mixed with white spotting genes (example: Birman), the two are completely separate. Also you can have cats with tortie points or torbie (tortie tabby) points as well as solid and lynx points. Any cat with washed out color on the hotter areas of the cat (mainly the torso) is expressing the colorpoint genes. Also note that the piebald white spotting gene generally starts at the paws and works up from there (black cats occasionally show white chest lockets), so white spotted cats almost invariably have white feet.
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