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Should bail be a guaranteed right or a priviledge? - Page 2  

post #31 of 51
Thread Starter 
Actually, Kellye, I mean usually this particular issue of Puerto Rico. I shall say this: The only people who can't argue it without killing each other are Puerto Ricans themselves. I hope you understand what I mean. I love arguing other issues (particularly American politics), but this one is different. Many times I think I will be able to handle it, but it always brings my blood to a boil at one point or the other. Guess I am no different than the other 4 million people that I share this island with . I guess I ought to take your suggestion of taking a break from the Puerto Rico issue of statehood or independence. As you said, it does the world of good to me. And to my blood pressure.

I shall confess, that every now and then I have a bad day and have a hard time handling IMO. I guess that the best thing to do when you've had a bad day is stay out from IMO.
post #32 of 51
So basically, you like to debate a "foreign" country's politics, but no one else can talk about your "country's" politics? Seems a bit hyprocitical that you can criticize our government, policies and laws, but yet speaking of yours is somehow off limits.

And Victor, just because you disagree with what a source says, doesn't mean what it says is invalid. What are the natural resources and natural industry that hasn't been swayed by US interests that would be so much better if we left?

BTW, you also proved my point quite well.

Quote:
Those tax credits were taken away with the repeal of the 936 law in Congress. And the anexionists were lobbying behind that repeal. The economy was flourishing previous to that. Now its slumping. Shows you how it would be better if we could make our own economic decisions.
The PR economy was flourishing with MORE assistance from the US in the form of tax credits to encourage US industry to locate in PR. Now it struggles because Clinton (the Liberal Hero, as I recall ) removed them in favor of NAFTA (which I opposed, and still do. Decent idea, very bad execution...). Whether the US grants tax credits isn't up to PR, though. That's up to the US, not PR making their own economic decisions.
post #33 of 51
I say: Cut 'em loose and let 'em sink or swim, on their own.

We don't hear any of these complaints from Guam, American Samoa or the US Virgin Islands. They all seem to be happy with our presence (both civilian and military) and the economic benefits of US "colonialism".
post #34 of 51
As an activist, I face arrest all the time. Luckily, I have not yet been arrested, but if I was I would want my bail to be a guranteed right.
post #35 of 51
I feel that bail should be a privilege, which in a way it already is..the judge sets the conditions for the bail that a person must abide by or they can have their bail revoked. Our prisons and jails are already majorly overcrowded as it is with people that could be productive on an alternate sentence such as home detention. Letting the lesser offenses out on bail is a necessity to keep from releasing more dangerous and repeat offenders back on the streets O/R.
post #36 of 51
Quote:
I guess I ought to take your suggestion of taking a break from the Puerto Rico issue of statehood or independence. As you said, it does the world of good to me. And to my blood pressure.
Victor, Kellye suggested that you take a break from the IMO forum.


Quote:
I love arguing other issues (particularly American politics), but this one is different. Many times I think I will be able to handle it, but it always brings my blood to a boil at one point or the other. Guess I am no different than the other 4 million people that I share this island with .
Well, since 4 million other people share your attitude, I really think Puerto Rico should have complete independence effective immediately, and the U.S. should withdrawl all financial aid. And if your country immediately sinks like a rock, it's just tough.
post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Heidi, this is not hypocresy. It is just that I have a hard time losing my temper while discussing that issue. You folks saw me arguing the touchy of touchies, abortion, and I never lost my cool, even thought the place seemed like WW3 was about to begin. Yet, I have a hard time arguing that particular issue because of that temper. Perhaps because emotions run too high with it. Or perhaps because at one point or another one somehow feels that they are insulting your country. I am withdrawing from the argument... I would love to discuss it, I just can't without having a high blood pressure.

As for the foreign country... yes, it is a foreign country. But since all the laws Congress makes apply here, and that President is technically my president as well as yours. I am as entitled to worry about American issues as if I was an American and living in Capitol Hill.

Lorie, what I share with the other 4 million is the not being able to argue that issue without trying to strangle each other. Wether you believe it or not, both movements for independence and statehood are minoritarian movements. Yet we are eating each other alive.
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by Lorie D.
Well, since 4 million other people share your attitude, I really think Puerto Rico should have complete independence effective immediately, and the U.S. should withdrawl all financial aid. And if your country immediately sinks like a rock, it's just tough.
And close the US borders, while we're at it.
post #39 of 51
Hmm, let's see, some 200 years ago when America was cut loose as a British colony, I don't see any finanacial aid continuing to pour in.

As I see it, you seem to want your cake and eat it too for PR. You post for independence, yet you seem to want it in the most convenient way, like an adult child who works, yet continues to live at home. The way I see it, you are quite anti-American (and yes, my nationality is capitalized), yet your people are more than happy to accept the perks of help from the US government. The way it looks from my red, white, and blue chair, your nation can decide to go it on their own, period, or accept their territory staus and quit whining about it.

That is my staunch conservative American view.
post #40 of 51
Interesting how you deleted your post. My only question is: you ask if some of us are deliberately trying to test your patience. May I ask the same of you?
post #41 of 51
Thread Starter 
Deb,

I deleted that post, because I understood that I was making a fool of myself with a senseless rant that I had gotten angry. After I read it myself, I realized the stupidity I was saying. And I realized also that you people were not trying to insult me deliberately. Therefore I decided to delete it before it would cause any trouble. And since, you don't appear in the online list I did not know you were already answering it.

I understand what you say. You may be right. That's part of the reasons why I felt that it was best to delete the post.

Why do you ask of me if I am testing your patience? I am not. On the contrary, the one who had gotten angry and posted before thinking and deleted the post attempting to avoid making the fool out of himself, but makes a bigger fool in the process was me. I doubt anybody is testing anybody's patience.

And... I am not anti american. I've always admired Americans and have liked the US a lot. I have got quite a few American friends. Sure, I sometimes think that eating habits of americans are quite uncomprehensible, but that's about it.

When I saw the last lines of your post about we should decide to go on our own or keep as a territorry. I thought "That's right. It's about time we decide what the he** to do and stop behaving like idiots". If only the folks at the San Juan capitol had that much insight.

You saw how easily I lost my temper with that issue. Maybe that's why we haven't been able to solve the issue. Because we haven't been able to sit down peacefully to it and solve it.

You are wise, Deb. Very wise.

I think I am feeling right now like when you are very angry and spewing and somebody throws cold water on you, and immediately you feel calm. The joke was that the cold water is your post.
post #42 of 51
Originally posted by yoviher
Quote:
And since, you don't appear in the online list I did not know you were already answering it.
Victor, in case you haven't noticed, Deb is in invisible mode.
post #43 of 51
Thread Starter 
Wait a minute.... since when nationalities are capitalized? I thought it wasn't. That the grammatically correct thing is to write "american" instead of "American". At least that's how it is in Spanish.... is it something that is used only in English?

I remembered just now that she's in invisible mode... one question.. is invisible mode something you only choose when you register or is something I can change at any time? If I wanted to be invisible right now, can I change it, or is it something permanent?
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally posted by yoviher
Wait a minute.... since when nationalities are capitalized?
Victor,

It would be to my greatest joy if we might all mutually decide to end this thread. After all, Victor, to his credit, offered to step out -- and then it went on, and, in my opinion, he was then justified in joining back in. I attribute blame to nobody here -- cross-postings or innocent new entrants into the thread are usually to blame for something like this.

But, Victor, when using one's nationality as a noun defining a person or group of persons, customary rules of grammar approve, no, require, capitalization. If you say that you are English, French, Montenegran, or, indeed, Puerto Rican, capitilization is quite correct.

Now, we have a problem in the United States of America, and we have had that problem since the very birth of our country. We never had a handy word to define ourselves as natives of our country. It sounds stupid to say that I am "A United States of American," doesn't it? Then the problem was aggravated because there are a whole bunch of other Americans -- Canadians, Mexicans, Columbians, and, of course, Puerto Ricans, are all natives of "America," be it North America, South America, or islands offshore of "America."

So, we ask forgiveness of all those other "Americans," but we have done the best that we can with this long-winded name we gave our country. After all, there are others who do the same. For example, natives of "The Peoples Republic of China" call themselves "Chinese," not "The Peoples Republic of Chinese," right? (I do not intend to make this more complicated by raising the issue of Taiwan).

So, good cat people, let us recognize on all sides that we have touched a nerve -- the lands of our birth. We can have fun debating other issues here on TCS, but this one admits of no compromise, and fundamental principles of patriotism generate fiery feelings and fiery words. Let me assure you that I, personally, do not plead "Not guilty" here, because I am the guiltiest.

No matter our origin, "It is my country -- right or wrong, my country."

Many a war has started this way.

Let us go on to something else. We will all be happier for that.

I will even try to get a new photo of Samwise.

All the best,

Jim, a Texan, but also an American, as is Victor, with Ann, Miss Kitty and Samwise, on a Texas beach
post #45 of 51
Whoa whoa whoa! So if a subject is close to someone's heart then it shouldn't be up for debate? If that's the case then we may as well get rid of this whole forum. I for one have been infuriated by some of the posts about my country and my president - some made by fellow Americans and some by people who are not Americans. If I am too emotional to respond in a mature, educated and non-flaming manner, I step away from the thread. And I don't need to make a big to-do about stepping back, offering to remove myself from the thread and asking that no one else discuss it.

Quite frankly, I think this is a good exercise for Victor. Until he and his countrymen are able to discuss this matter without the anger and hate spewing about the opposite point of view, nothing will ever change - either for annexation or independence. Debate cannot be won with emotions but with sound reasoning and logic, giving the reasons why change is necessary, not by bashing and using emotionally charged words and phrases ("colonialism", "foreign rule", etc.). The person who loses their temper in a debate pretty well automatically loses to the person who can keep their emotions in check and present facts and issues that support their position. Emotional arguments are all too easy to blow apart.

While Victor may be well read, he has a lot to learn about debating on an adult level. This is an adult forum. I guarantee none of you with very opposite points of view from mine have backed down because an issue was close to me, or because I lost my temper.
post #46 of 51
Thread Starter 
Ah, yes let's end this. Many wars have started because of that. And I do not have to go far from my own house to see good examples of that. Puerto Rican history of the past century has of full scale rebellions, acts of terrorrism, murder, assassination attempts, political persecution, massacres, some of the most blatantly illegal and unconstitutional acts, the list goes on. And all these things were done by either of the sides in order to advance their longterm goals. Even today most bars have signs banning talking about politics in order to avoid fights, and it's not uncommon to find school children of less than 10 years of age in a fistfight because their parents are of differing parties (I was involved in a few of those in summer camp when I was 7 )

So, as James said, let's leave this issue. This is an issue that strikes a very delicate nerve: The nerve of nationalism. And when you deal with nationalism, keeping calm about it, much less achieving a compromise is out of the question. Let us go to something else, we will all be happy.

And I am not pleading "Not Guilty" for I am the guiltiest of all, more than James.

As for the name, there is an old joke here that the Americans stole the continents name. I understand what you mean perfectly. We often use against the anexionists saying "I am an American. Yes, America extends from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego". In Spanish there is a good way of describing people of the USA: "Estadounidense". But there isn't one in English.

I've got a few photos, I think I will share them.

PS: I already figured out how to go into invisible mode. From now on I am a ghost.
post #47 of 51
Thread Starter 
Heidi, I understand what you mean. But I sure would like to see you arguing peacefully when you feel that the other side's stance is for the very destruction of your nation.

Are you implying that I am not capable of making a reasonable debate? I am not implying anything, and I think I am getting you wrong, but it seems to me as if you said that I am not fit for being a member of this forum. Please clarify yourself on this.
post #48 of 51
Check your PMs Victor.
post #49 of 51
Quote:
Check your PMs Victor.
Wait... I thought Victor was a guy. hehe Sorry I simply could not resist.
post #50 of 51
Thanks for the giggle Thy!
post #51 of 51
This thread is now closed to further discussion since it has gone completely off of the original topic and has no chance of being revieved as a productive thread.
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