What do you think she is?

abyeb

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It appears in the picture as if she has some color pointing on the ears and tail... I can't tell if her legs are pointed though. That slightly darker inverted "v" on the top of her head also appears slightly darker. That combined with her blue eyes... she might have some Snowshoe in her ancestry. She is a Domestic Shorthair, but there could have been some Snowshoe influence somewhere.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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It appears in the picture as if she has some color pointing on the ears and tail... I can't tell if her legs are pointed though. That slightly darker inverted "v" on the top of her head also appears slightly darker. That combined with her blue eyes... she might have some Snowshoe in her ancestry. She is a Domestic Shorthair, but there could have been some Snowshoe influence somewhere.
I think there's merit to this suggestion.  Even for a Lilac Point, and even at this young age, the nose leather seems too pink.  She has the look of a Birman or a Snowshoe kitten, though she could certainly be a "back yard" cross as well.  I'd guess Fawn Point, Cinnamon Point or Lilac Point heritage, but at this age it's difficult to make even a wild guess - and without DNA markers, we'll never know, but she's a remarkably pretty girl, isn't she?

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maggiekitty

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This is the exact color, markings of Maggie. She has what looks more like blue points as well. (Sorry if this is prohibited)




She also has long fur, not short. Her tufts between her pads are long and fluffy. I just can't get good pics of her. Either the light kills her cream and points or the flash kills her fluff. Lol!





Either way, this was just for fun. She doesn't have a pedigree and is just a very lucky mix ;). I wanted to see what others see and perhaps have someone chime in on genetics as her vet said that this particular gene is recessive and both parents must have a copy for it to express into offspring otherwise they are simply carriers of it. Would this be true? If this is the case Maggie's parents or someone in both sides of her line would have to be pointed and carriers of it to produce her color, such as blue is in dogs. You can breed a blue to a non carrier and the offspring will simply carry that copy and express it when bred to a blue or another carrier.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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her vet said that this particular gene is recessive and both parents must have a copy for it to express into offspring otherwise they are simply carriers of it. Would this be true?
That's correct.  The C locus codes for the rate-limiting enzyme Tyrosinase, which controls the production of melanin.  The temperature sensitive albino genotype for Siamese is cs cs   (the gene for pointing is actually also the gene for albinism, and the recessive alleles determine whether a cat is a full albino or a temperature sensitive albino as Siamese are).
If this is the case Maggie's parents or someone in both sides of her line would have to be pointed and carriers of it to produce her color, such as blue is in dogs.
Almost correct.  Maggie's parents or someone in both sides of her line would have to be pointed or carriers.  Pointed cats will always carry the recessive (cs cs   in Siamese, cb cb in Burmese, ccb in Tonkinese); the recessive can be carried in any cat, but will only be expressed when the progeny inherit it along with the recessive from their other Parent as well.

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StefanZ

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I think there's merit to this suggestion.  Even for a Lilac Point, and even at this young age, the nose leather seems too pink.  She has the look of a Birman or a Snowshoe kitten, though she could certainly be a "back yard" cross as well.  I'd guess Fawn Point, Cinnamon Point or Lilac Point heritage, but at this age it's difficult to make even a wild guess - and without DNA markers, we'll never know, but she's a remarkably pretty girl, isn't she?

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These colors arent the most common among the broad moggie population,  they are usually purebred in pedigree cats.  So if she has any of these, it strongly suggest an Ancestry, other than the obvious point "siamese-mix".

So, she is obviously a point and she also carries white.  Not very visible on the pics, but its why she hasnt no good face masque - because she has much white in her face.

Point color I dont see it, may be blue, but may be some lighter nuance, as one of the mentioned above.   I suspect the latter.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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These colors arent the most common among the broad moggie population,  they are usually purebred in pedigree cats.  So if she has any of these, it strongly suggest an Ancestry, other than the obvious point "siamese-mix".

So, she is obviously a point and she also carries white.  Not very visible on the pics, but its why she hasnt no good face masque - because she has much white in her face.

Point color I dont see it, may be blue, but may be some lighter nuance, as one of the mentioned above.   I suspect the latter.
I do as well; I think the dilution gene is in play here, in the same way that it acts on Seal Point creating a Blue Point, and as diluted Chocolate Points are Lilac (Frost Points in the U.K.), and Fawn Points are the result of the dilution gene acting on a Cinnamon Point, and in the same fashion that the dilute modifier creates the Caramel Point now and then.  I've never seen two Fawn Points crossed, but if they carried the dilution gene, how would it react?  I'd think it would be null, but I'm merely guessing.

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maggiekitty

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What is the major factor in a pointed cat getting the diluted gene? Is it the same as dogs or is there slight difference in their color coding? I guess I've never actually seen a mix like Maggie, ever. I've seen the traditional tabby marked mix and the traditional siamese chocolate point but nothing that was as soft as the bluish points or rather, diluted blue fawn on her. It depends on light, but usually it is a soft paled grey. Flash causes the more brownish tint that we like to call (in dog terms) blue fawn *besides the first photo on this thread) she definitely is a dilute, or appears to be. Would she be more traditional since the others probably aren't common in mutt cats?






 
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maggiekitty

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Oh! And these are just random photos. Most of the ones above are of her when she was smaller. While the first photos in the start of this thread are newer.
 

1CatOverTheLine

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What is the major factor in a pointed cat getting the diluted gene? Is it the same as dogs or is there slight difference in their color coding? I guess I've never actually seen a mix like Maggie, ever. I've seen the traditional tabby marked mix and the traditional siamese chocolate point but nothing that was as soft as the bluish points or rather, diluted blue fawn on her. It depends on light, but usually it is a soft paled grey. Flash causes the more brownish tint that we like to call (in dog terms) blue fawn *besides the first photo on this thread) she definitely is a dilute, or appears to be.
 
I'm not certain what you're asking here with the phrase, "major factor."  If you're asking if there's a correlation between the felid and canid D locus and the expression of D / d then the answer's yes, and in both cases, the recessive mutation in the melanophilin (MLPH) gene on chromosome 15 has been identified as the cause of color dilution in genotypes displaying the dilute (e.g. "blue" dogs) coat colours.  Schmidt-Küntzel published the genomapping for Tyrosinase Related Protein 1 in The Journal of Heredity (Tyrosinase and Tyrosinase Related Protein I Alleles Specify Domestic Cat Coat Color Phenotypes) in 2005.  It boils down to D homozygous = full colour; d homozygous = dilute, and D/d being full colour, and carrying d recessively.

If, on the other hand, you're asking if there's a specific relationship between the pairs of alleles on C and D loci, in that "if D then always c" or similar relationships, in the same fashion as eye colour and temperature-sensitive albinism (i.e. the autosomal recessive expressed as Oculocutaneous albinism) are linked, then there are none as far as I'm aware, although

@Abyeb or 

@StefanZ

 might be aware of something recently published.
Would she be more traditional since the others probably aren't common in mutt cats?
 
Again, I'm not clear on your question, regarding, "more traditional."  Are you asking about her head and body conformation as it relates to Siamese cats (Traditional versus Modern)?  If so, even at this young age, I'd guess she'll be the traditional, "Apple Head."  As far as point colour goes, it's certainly too soon to tell, though her nose leather suggests that she might actually be an Cream Point.

Just for fun, here's the Breed Restrictions section pertinent to that in the Balinese hierarchy from the World Cat Congress:

"All red, cream or apricot point Siamese with one or more tabby parents must be registered as red, cream or apricot tabbies until they have been proved to be free of the agouti gene (whether by test mating or DNA test)."

And the same section under the Siamese hierarchy:

Breed Restrictions: none.  Recognised colours:

Solid Pointed colours:

Seal

Blue

Chocolate

Lilac

Red

Cream

Tortiepointed:

All above colours.

Tabby pointed:

All above colours.

Tortietabby pointed:

All above colours.

The above is strictly (and obviously rather heavy-handedly) the "Five Minute Answer," but I expect it will suffice to answer the questions.  In this case, there's really no, "Ten Minute Answer," regarding the expression of modifier genes - Co-dominant, Semi-dominant, Recessive and Simple Dominant - or the Epistatic interactions between modifier genes carried on various loci, without some background in both molecular and quantitative genetics and in embryology.

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maggiekitty

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Exactly ehat I was asking. If you're asking if there's a correlation between the felid and canid D locus and the expression of D / d then the answer's yes


Traditional as in the color point. It is not refered to as "traditional" it is just the more common color in them and even mixes, which I am asking. I just miss used the the word.. the common color I see often is chocolate point. The solid deep chocolate, however your response was very informative and I'm glad I miss used it. I didn't realize that there was such a vast coloration variety in points and didn't know there was a traditional or modern look in them... goes to show you how much I paid attention to cats growing up. Lol!
Thank you for the post!
 

1CatOverTheLine

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Very good - a year earlier than my citation.  From that paper:

"An Oriental and Colourpoint Shorthair cat pedigree segregating for albinism was analysed for association with TYR by linkage and sequence analyses. Microsatellite FCA931, which is closely linked to TYR and TYR sequence variants were tested for segregation with the albinism phenotype. Sequence analysis of genomic DNA from wild-type and albino cats identified a cytosine deletion in TYR at position 975 in exon 2, which causes a frame shift resulting in a premature stop codon nine residues downstream from the mutation. The deletion mutation in TYR and an allele of FCA931 segregated concordantly with the albino phenotype."

(My editorial bolding.)

Thanks, Abyeb !

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1CatOverTheLine

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Exactly ehat I was asking. If you're asking if there's a correlation between the felid and canid D locus and the expression of D / d then the answer's yes


Traditional as in the color point. It is not refered to as "traditional" it is just the more common color in them and even mixes, which I am asking. I just miss used the the word.. the common color I see often is chocolate point. The solid deep chocolate, however your response was very informative and I'm glad I miss used it. I didn't realize that there was such a vast coloration variety in points and didn't know there was a traditional or modern look in them... goes to show you how much I paid attention to cats growing up. Lol!
Thank you for the post!
Things have changed in Breed Standards over the years, and with all the possibilities taken into account, there are 36 recognised descriptors for colourpoints in Siamese these days, but you're right about the "old four" being the best known - and it's true even at the moderate-sized cat show levels.  Seeing cats entered as Caramel Tabby Points or Fawn Tortie Points is still pretty uncommon unless you're at a National or International show - and in that case you might never see them because of standing in front of some gorgeous GC Havana Brown, trying to figure out if anyone would see you slip it under your jacket and get away.

I hope you'll stick around and show more pictures of her as she matures.  TCS really is a delightful place, and there are some genuinely sharp members here who can actually answer questions on behaviour, genetics, medicine et. al. without fumbling and resorting to oversimplification as I did above.

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kittylove53

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I am really not sure what type of kitty Maggie could be.She is so young,but to me she looks like a Lilac point mix of some kind. Whatever the true type she may be found to be, one thing is certain. She is absolutely darling,precious,and beautiful.Post more pics of her as she grows.
 
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maggiekitty

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Kittylove53, thank you for your response. She certainly is precious. VERY sweet, not at all loud. She loves to cuddle and follows me around like the dog. Pretty docile and I love the fact she goes completely limp when I'm holding her. A shame someone tossed her out, she really is awesome.
 
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maggiekitty

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Things have changed in Breed Standards over the years, and with all the possibilities taken into account, there are 36 recognised descriptors for colourpoints in Siamese these days, but you're right about the "old four" being the best known - and it's true even at the moderate-sized cat show levels.  Seeing cats entered as Caramel Tabby Points or Fawn Tortie Points is still pretty uncommon unless you're at a National or International show - and in that case you might never see them because of standing in front of some gorgeous GC Havana Brown, trying to figure out if anyone would see you slip it under your jacket and get away.

I hope you'll stick around and show more pictures of her as she matures.  TCS really is a delightful place, and there are some genuinely sharp members here who can actually answer questions on behaviour, genetics, medicine et. al. without fumbling and resorting to oversimplification as I did above.

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I most certainly have no desire, as of yet, to leave the forum. It has been very helpful in my research and questions that have ran through my mind are easily looked up through the forums search bar.



This is Maggie from yesterday.




Maggie really is a special little Domestic Kitten. Love her to bits!
 

tarasgirl06

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Our sweet Sishya looked very much like her when she turned up as a sniff-nose kitten in our side yard.  Over time, she darkened up beautifully.  I don't have kitten pix of her scanned (they were 35mm) but here are a couple of her once she colored completely.  

 
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